Nerfing Cinderhulk isn't the answer.

Raxistaicho·May 12, 2015·74 votes·2,943 views

Spirit of the Ancient Golem had the exact same %health bonus passive that Cinderhulk has, and it was even the same amount. Nobody was complaining about Ancient Golem then, so what's the problem with Cinderhulk now?

It's simple, it has no meaningful competition in the jungle.

Elder Lizard and Spectral Wraith provided things that Ancient Golem lacked, and Warrior and Magus are painfully bland by comparison. There's really no meaningful bonus those 2 items provide that you can't get through something else, so why bother taking them over Cinderhulk? Devourer is largely unchanged compared to Feral Flare, but the changes in respawn timers have made it considerably harder to stack.

The actual answer is that Warrior and Magus need to be made something more than just ho-hum ball of stat enchants, and Devourer needs a buff. Not back to 4.20 levels, god no, but it's in a really terrible spot right now.

73 Comments

JamareeMay 12, 201523 votes

It gives tankiness AND damage, that is why it gets bought over the other items. So unless the other items get obscene amount of damage, it is going to stay that way.

IcyPepperMay 12, 20152 votes

Well, if the PBE nerfs go to live then item 3068 will rise in popularity for non-tank junglers and top laners.

64931067_DELMay 12, 20152 votes

Well, item 3068 should be the ONLY things which gives AoE dmg to Champions and Minions.

IcyPepperMay 12, 201510 votes

Eh, I disagree. Cinderhulk's passive, if changed, will just do less damage overall to minions and champions than sunfire's (not to mention it doesn't have as much base health or any armor, making it weaker early game anyway).

But taking away all the damage is a tad excessive.

64931067_DELMay 12, 20152 votes

Its give a smite in compensate. If you want AoE dmg, take item 3751 and upgrade it to item 3068 . The Cinderhulk should give the same AoE dmg as Bami's Cinder to Champions, due to 400 gold is not so much to give 16(+1 per level) AoE dmg (which increase 11 dmg per second).

IcyPepperMay 12, 20155 votes

shrugs

The last time I checked PBE, the numbers seemed rather reasonable. Sunfire's will be more useful against champions, cinderhulk for farming the jungle. It might not be exactly what you want, but we'll have to see if it goes live and how it affects the game.

64931067_DELMay 12, 20152 votes

Hmm... I just think if the nerf to not-jungle Cinderhulk isnt heavily enough, we will still see many Smite top laner.

IcyPepperMay 12, 20152 votes

Eh, they probably should nerf that a tad too (it is a tad strong for top laners).

Now, I don't want it to be completely unviable top, just not overbearing or completely unfair. I'm a fan of strategic diversity, but I want diversity, not one strategy being too effective and crowding the others out.

64931067_DELMay 12, 20153 votes

Why people still think this patch reaching diversity? When some champions come into play, the others go into the corner. Just a shift of meta, no diversity at all. If you want example, so where is LeeSin JarvanIV in the jungle, Jayce Jax Riven in top lane, Syndra Zed in mid, and Graves Caitlyn as ADC ?

IcyPepperMay 12, 20156 votes

Well, a lot of those champions are still picked. Their win rates aren't always stellar, but I'll give the pick rates in the order of champions listed, at least for Plat+ Source of data:

16.95% 7.19% 15.48% 1.93%/1.12% 4.67%/1.01% 14.92% 2.96% 13.39% 22.48% 17.13%

Mostly high numbers. Not all of them, of course...

Balancing is a bitch, and hitting that strategic diversity is difficult but one can hope for it (which is why I keep saying I'm all for cinderhulk and challenging smite being nerfed, rather than outright defending it). At least Riot is trying, and they certainly got tanks back into the game without making the bruisers (and Fiddlesticks) unviable. Even a few assassins, like Master Yi, are still played.

If we just outright nerf everything instead of trying to get some balance, we'll just go back to old stuff by shifting it. Why shift it when we can shake things up? Assassins and mages and bruisers and adc's and supports are being played, I never see more than two tanks at most on a team (and having a tank be necessary is a different balancing point, otherwise having an adc be mandatory on the team could be brought to scrutiny if I felt like nitpicking. No frontline is a teamfighting weakness, this is not league of assassins anymore).

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20151 votes

Lee and Vi are still the most common junglers lol

Still, I'm sure sejuani's ban rate has something to do with that.

IcyPepperMay 12, 20151 votes

I definitely won't deny that, considering she has the number one ban rate of the entire champion pool (role regardless).

Rinky DinkyMay 12, 20154 votes

All of those champions are still played in pro scene and solo queue.

What is your point dude.

This is probably the most diverse the game has ever been

AbyssphereMay 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Melody of Mew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k96yFXHK,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-12T05:40:40.240+0000)

Why people still think this patch reaching diversity? When some champions come into play, the others go into the corner. Just a shift of meta, no diversity at all. If you want example, so where is in the jungle, in top lane, in mid, and as ADC ?

The only unpopular champ you just listed is Syndra, maybe Jayce and Jax too. Every other champion gets played a lot and people like Vi are still really good. Just because someone isn't #1 doesn't mean they're not in the meta - the three people who defined the Warrior jungler era are all still very good.

ProfDrDeathMay 12, 20153 votes

The nerf to non-jungle Cinderhulk is heavy enough:

A) Way less AoE damage to champions AND MINIONS. Cinderhulk now only deals 15 + 0.6/lvl damage to non-monsters. Before, it did 16 +1/lvl (and up to 24 + 1.5/lvl) to everything. Thats an 8% to 49% reduction in champion-to-champion damage. B) Skirmisher's Sabre is also getting a nerf, with the duration being cut from 6 to 4 seconds.

RaxistaichoMay 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It gives tankiness AND damage, that is why it gets bought over the other items. So unless the other items get obscene amount of damage, it is going to stay that way.

That's not going to be a problem with the PBE nerfs. Cinderhulk's losing quite a bit of aoe damage.

64931067_DELMay 12, 20159 votes

Old ancient golem didnt give HUGE AoE dmg, and it didnt give a new smite.

BluePolarizerMay 12, 20152 votes

It gave 20 armor and gold.

idokiMay 12, 20152 votes

And CDR for a while

Hard4HamstersMay 13, 20151 votes

And a ward!

idokiMay 13, 20153 votes

And my item 3071 !

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20151 votes

cinderhulk doesn't change smite.

Rinky DinkyMay 12, 20157 votes

Actually, cinderhulk should not being doing more damage to champions that sunfire, and certainly should not be giving as much damage as it does in conjunction with the tankyness it provides.

The nerfs on PBE are very much justified.

Daedalus871May 12, 20155 votes

Throwing this out there: Cinderhulk's max damage to monsters stays the same. So most junglers who get it now will probably still get it.

And the problem with Cinderhulk, according to Riot, isn't it crowding out other jungle items, it's that a significant amount of top laners are now taking smite top just to get Cinderhulk.

TurtleOSPMay 12, 20152 votes

{quoted} And the problem with Cinderhulk, according to Riot, isn't it crowding out other jungle items, it's that a significant amount of top laners are now taking smite top just to get Cinderhulk.

I feel like that's a disappointing reason to change it. Something that causes players to start weighing the option of flash for smite is certainly interesting. These players are sacrificing a lot for a single item and that's what makes these new jungle items interesting because of how they're gated. Very few champions are using the smite top and it alone helped bring Shyvana back in the pro league as a top laner while still barely influencing other top lane champions. Not every Hecarim runs smite, it's something that's brought in more theorycrafting. I don't see how it's an issue.

qetzelMay 12, 20151 votes

But when it is so strong that it puts people at a significant disadvantage for not taking it it becomes a problem.

TurtleOSPMay 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But when it is so strong that it puts people at a significant disadvantage for not taking it it becomes a problem.

I agree, but it still hasn't. At MSI smite was taken twice in the 15 games of group stage once in the 13 games of bracket stage

Keep in mind in all these games, it was only 1 top laner who got smite. So, 3 out of 56. 5.3%

I know MSI isn't be all end all for balance. But, being the most recent tournament it's one of the most useful sources of data.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20151 votes

Not taking flash is still extremely punishable.

Daedalus871May 12, 20152 votes

My understanding is that Cinderhulk's purpose to to allow jungle tanks stay comparably tanky to lane tanks.

When lane tanks get it, they become too tanky.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20151 votes

I think that's a combination of augmented smite and cinderhulk. On its own, 25% bonus health sunfire isn't worth dropping flash, but when challenging smite is basically a low cooldown exhaust/ignite, it makes it a lot easier to justify.

Daedalus871May 12, 20151 votes

Well if it's the combonation, then I see two realistic choices:

Nerf Cinderhulk
Nerf Skirmisher's.

And Skirmisher's doesn't really have a lot of room left to be nerfed.

PartholonianMay 12, 20151 votes

They're doing both at once. Unless you think there will be more nerfs needed after this week's patch, and I don't think even Riot could say yes or no to that at this point.

Daedalus871May 13, 20151 votes

Source on the skirmishers nerf?

TerchioMay 13, 20151 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html

Mark on Skirmishing Smite is being reduced from a 6 second duration to a 4 second duration.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 14, 20151 votes

Skirmishers is still really strong. Considering that you get a mini exhaust, true damage burn, and it's still smite on top of that, it's quite strong for fighting

Daedalus871May 14, 20151 votes

I'm not saying that skirmisher's is weak, just that there isn't a lot of room for it to nerfed while it maintains a decent pick in the jungle.

The damage is kind of weak, so the main reason I still get it because of the damage reduction, and if it was any lower, I'd probably get something else.

ProfDrDeathMay 12, 20153 votes

The main thing the current Devourer needs is lower base damage, but for stacking to start with your very first camp. Atm, you're force to get that item ASAP, and any gold spend sidetracked (even on wards and potions) is equal to wasted stacks.

Earl EulrichMay 12, 20153 votes

warrior is sort of fine...it provides some cdr and arp for ad-junglers that do want exactly that to keep on snowballing early on (e.g. clearlove still took it on rek´sai because he wanted to snowball and had great success with it). Devourer aswell...a small buff would do. Magus though is really just crap. AP-junglers need lots of mana to clear, and it doesn´t provide that in the slightest.

DaxterrMay 12, 20152 votes

I agree completely. Magus junglers almost always take blue buffs from what I've seen. I think they should give it a passive from the old spirit stone (8% of of damage dealt is converted into mana) or something like that and it would be better.

TotalisMay 12, 20153 votes

I agree. give warrior the 5 ad back.

TurtleOSPMay 12, 20153 votes

Came here to start a thread saying almost exactly this. Cinderhulk brings a unique buff, and devourer does as well (albeit weakish ATM). This just isn't a good enough reason for these items. Even the old spectral lizard was more unique than warrior.

Looking at the AP junglers Nidalee Fiddlesticks Evelynn Diana Elise All of them require them to get in the middle of the fight. Perhaps an AP scaling shield that activates at low HP? Perhaps a stacking buff for each different champion they hit with a spell?

AD junglers Rengar Vi RekSai Lee Sin Jarvan Khaz Yi Too many to keep listing Little bit harder. Most are a mix between fighters and assassins. Safer thing would be to add a lifesteal style shield that effects spells. Otherwise, would be unique to see something along the lines of an execute proc on an item, but would most likely be too overpowered on warrior unless Riot gutted other areas. Losing armor pen wouldn't be bad, since armor pen runes aren't usually used.

The EllimiistMay 12, 20152 votes

I think hunter's is fine, devourer is slightly weak and magus is like a crappier morello's...

Slamurai JackMay 12, 20152 votes

The problem with Cinderhulk isn't with the 25% bonus hp as others have stated, the problem is how much damage it does. For a supposed tank scaling and jungle clearing item, its also a very, very strong dueling item. It's literally such a strong dueling item that AD bruisers with nothing but bonus AD ratios and even some assassins would still rather have cinderhulk over warrior. RekSai XinZhao Shyvana Olaf Rengar MasterYi LeeSin Nocturne Khazix MonkeyKing Poppy Garen .

And don't scoff when I say this, but I honestly think Cinderhulk Master Yi is the strongest of the bunch. Just build 1, maybe 2 damage items and then full tank with Cinderhulk+Red Smite and you become this incredibly tanky POS that can still kill squishies in 3-4 autos.

ChaoticPineconeMay 12, 20152 votes

because Ancient Golem didnt help clear faster or provide AoE damage in teamfights.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20151 votes

it had %max hp true damage thorns against monsters. I actually built spectral wraith with a quill coat some games for the stupid fast dragon and barons on amumu

ChaoticPineconeMay 13, 20151 votes

but that was only the latest version of Ancient Golem that lasted for 4 months before it was removed. For a year and a half the Ancient Golem didnt help clears.

TheXtractorMay 12, 20151 votes

It would be great if 'jungle items' weren't just stronger that normal items so that they become must have items on anyone (cinderhulk top, elder lizard jayce/ezreal, sprit wraith vlad/mord) until they are nerfed and reworked.

If only 'jungle items' did things to make jungeling better without making the items desireable on laners. They should be jungle-items. Why does a jungle item give % bonus health for tanks, this makes no sense to put it under a jungle item. just put that on a regular tank item and make the jungle item more specific for the jungle.

BluePolarizerMay 12, 20151 votes

because then junglers who have much less gold than laners due to the respawn timer changes will be poorer than supports while having the responsibilities of a top laner.

TheXtractorMay 12, 20151 votes

Then why not make jungle items that make jungling easier and greatly increase gold gains or something like that?

hazerddexMay 13, 20151 votes

devourers does not need a buff

also did no one read the patch notes

REMOVEDFIRE CONTROLCinderhulk's Immolate passive no longer increases in damage while in combat BASE DAMAGE16 (+1 per champion level) magic damage scaling up to 24 (+1.5 per champion level) magic damage ? 15 (+0.6 per champion level) magic damage"

it still does damage just does not increase in combat