Karma's balancing

jocomotion··8 votes·1,341 views
Rebalancing Karma

Karma has been my main champion since the later half of season 6. Hell she's been my main for a majority of the time I've played League, and I absolutely love playing her. However, I've noticed a worrying trend. Karma either Super strong, forcing her enemy out of lane with her strong poke and shields, or she's laughably lackluster compared to other champs because of her low damage and shielding numbers. On top of that,Karma R, Mantra doesn't offer the utility needed in each spell. If you're mid you RQ, Top RW, Support RE, the only time you'll change this rule is during laning phase. I have included a link in this post that I found that has a great example of what a rework on Karma could achieve, more ways to play rather than just over-reliance on numbers. But I want to take my own stab at this Idea, Because she's my main and I thought it'd be fun. [(https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/f5aZsTxt-rebalancing-karma)]

Passive: Gathering fire [new]

  • Whenever Karma or her nearby allies take damage she gains stacks of gathering fire. Karma can consume these stacks by using a mantra'd ability, granting them extra power in different ways. Example: (not sure how this would actually be implemented but here's a short example of what I mean.) every 10%max health lost by karma and her nearby allies grants 1 stack of gathering fire every nearby ally champion death grants 5 stacks

Note: This is meant to give karma's ultimate a little OMPH without making it too powerful at any one given time. This passive is meant to set her apart from other champs that can empower their abilities like Rengar and Heimerdinger , who do the same thing but bigger and better. The gathering fire bonuses are mostly for extra utility rather than flat damage though

Q: Inner flame [reworked]

  • Karma fires a projectile that detonates upon hitting an enemy dealing 80/125/170/215/260 (+ 60% AP)> 65/100/135/170/205 (+40% AP) flat magic damage to all nearby enemies and slowing them by 25%> 25%/30%/35%/45%/45% for 1.5 seconds
  • [New] Deals 1.5% bonus damage for each 2% health the enemy has, maxing at 75% on a full health enemy Soulflare [reworked]
  • Inner flame deals 25/75/125/175(+ 30% AP) bonus magic damage in an area and marks the area for detonation dealing ~~ 50/150/250/350 (+ 60% AP)~~ 75/125/175/225 (70%) magic damage and slowing enemies within the zone by 50% for 1.5 seconds
  • [New] The detonation zone area increases with stacks of gathering fire

Notes: This is intended to be an overall nerf to damage while a buff to utility. Not sure if my numbers are ludicrous or not but the goal is to give karma better damage against slightly healthier champs without giving her more damage against squishy ones by introducing percent current health damage. This also forces Karma to be more aggressive to get early kills as enemies will take less damage from her Q as they get lower in health. Edit: I edited this portion to better represent my idea.

W: Focused resolve [Reworked]

  • Karma forms a tether between herself and an enemy/ALLY for two seconds
  • On enemy cast: grants true sight and deals 30/55/80/105/130 (+ 45% AP) magic damage per second to an enemy as well as rooting them for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2>.5/.75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds if the tether persists
  • [New] On Ally Cast: Karma grants her ally 5%/9%/13%/17%/21% (+ 3% per 100AP) damage reduction taking half of the damage reduced her self
  • [New] Enemies who walk between Karma and a tethered target take 30/55/80/105/130 (+ 45% AP) magic damage each time (cannot be damaged again within the span of .5 seconds) Renewal
  • On enemy cast: Focused resolve heals Karma for Karma for 20% (+1% per 100 AP) missing health> 50/100/150/200 (+ 65% AP) each second the tether is connected to an enemy -[New] for every stack of gathering fire karma has, she increases the duration of the root by .1 second
  • [removed] No longer automatically increases root duration.
  • On Ally cast: for every second karma remains tethered to her ally, the ally gains 50/100/150/200 (+ 65% AP) HP maxing at 100/200/300/400 (+130% AP)
  • Grants bonus damage reduction scaling with stacks of gathering fire

Note: A lot of stuff to go over here again I'd like to post this link here https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/f5aZsTxt-rebalancing-karma and recommend you go check that out because this is where I drew a lot of inspiration from for this ability I do think Karma's tether needs the most work done to it out of all of her abilities. It's just too basic especially for someone who's supposed to be a supportive mage. Compare Leblanc tether for instance, It has a longer range, and higher damage which you should expect from an assassin/mage, but it also has better combo potential for her kit. This version of the tether gives karma more ways to play around it rather than it being just some flat ability. I also agreed with scaling down the healing by making it a flat heal rather than a percentage missing health heal.

E: Inspire [Reworked]

  • Karma shields the target allied champion or herself for 70/95/120/145/170 (+ 50% AP) 4 seconds, granting them 40/45/50/55/60%> 35/40/45/50/55% decaying bonus movement speed for 1.25/1.25/1.5/1.5/2 seconds.
  • [New] Shield strength and move speed buff increases by 2% for every 1% missing health Defiance
  • Inspire overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield, shielding all nearby allied champions for 30% of the base amount and granting them the same base movement speed
  • [New] the shield of the initial target deals damage around them scaling with stacks of gathering fire

Note: I wanted to add a bit more skill expression to karma here, not by making her shields stronger, but by making them better at certain times. Now the lower the health of an ally, the stronger the shield and move speed boost. It's almost as if Karma is INSPIRING her allies to keep fighting. As for the ult this interaction only takes place with the ulted target, not the surrounding allies, so if you want to make a clutch save you cant just target a nearby friend to help them. To compensate for the potential power this change brings, the movement speed boost amount has been lessened as well as changed to a decaying speed boost

R: Mantra [reworked?]

  • Passive: Karma reduces Mantra's cool down by 2-3>1/1.25/1.5/2 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability as well as every time a tethered/shielded ally takes damage from an ability, damaging enemies with auto attacks gives back half the cool down.
  • Active: Empowers Karma's next ability

Note: Technically a nerf to her old passive, just tagging it onto her ult though since it makes more since, so overall nothing really changed. But I added in the extra bonus of using karma's E and W on allies in exchange for how strong the passive is.

8 Comments

IxtaliKing7 votes

Hey Jocomotion, thanks for the shout out :).

Passive: Gathering fire [new]

  • Whenever  or her nearby allies take damage she gains stacks of gathering fire. Karma can consume these stacks by using a mantra'd ability, granting them extra power in different ways. Example: (not sure how this would actually be implemented but here's a short example of what I mean.) every 10%max health lost by karma and her nearby allies grants 1 stack of gathering fire every nearby ally champion death grants 5 stacks

I've seen passive suggestions similar to this a few times. I think it's cool and add thematic flavour, something Karma has been lacking for a long time.

Q: Inner flame [reworked]

  • Karma fires a projectile that detonates upon hitting an enemy dealing80/125/170/215/260 (+ 60% AP)> 65/100/135/170/205 (+40% AP) flat magic damage to all nearby enemies and slowing them by 25%> 25%/30%/35%/45%/45% for 1.5 seconds
  • [New] Also deals and (New) 5%/8%/11%/14%/17% current health magic damage

Really don't think Karma ought to be messing around with % hp damage. This seems like an attempt at making her a little more target agnostic by improving her damage against tanks, which I think is a bad idea considering the rest of her kit.

W: Focused resolve [Reworked]

  • Karma forms a tether between herself and an enemy/ALLY for two seconds
  • On enemy cast: grants true sight and deals 30/55/80/105/130 (+ 45% AP) magic damage per second to an enemy as well as rooting them for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2>.5/.75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds if the tether persists
  • [New] On Ally Cast: Karma grants her ally 5%/9%/13%/17%/21% (+ 3% per 100AP) damage reduction taking half of the damage reduced her self
  • [New] Enemies who walk between Karma and a tethered target take 30/55/80/105/130 (+ 45% AP) magic damage each time (cannot be damaged again within the span of .5 seconds)

Love that W has an ally function, but I'm just not sure how appreciable the % damage reduction would be, particularly on squishies. If her W were to have an effect like this is perhaps consider increasing the ally duration to at least 4s so they can have a decent amount time to enjoy the buff.

Also love that you're bringing back the tether damage, although personally I'd reserve it for the Mantra so that the benefits of using Mantra on this ability are clearer and more distinct.

Renewal

  • On enemy cast: Focused resolve heals Karma for Karma for 20% (+1% per 100 AP) missing health> 50/100/150/200 (+ 65% AP) each second the tether is connected to an enemy -[New] for every stack of gathering fire karma has, she increases the duration of the tether by .1 second
  • [removed] No longer automatically increases root duration.
  • On Ally cast: The damage Karma would normally take instead heals her
  • Grants bonus damage reduction scaling with stacks of gathering fire

Part of the reason Karma has a missing HP heal is so that it isn't effective as a tool to keep yourself topped off, this version is really strong at keeping you topped off. Personally I wouldn't go this route, especially with your passive. At 5 stacks you'll be increasing the duration of your tether to 4.5* seconds and healing for 200+65% AP for each of those seconds... imagine what playing against that would feel like. Flat numbers are good, but I think she's going to have a heal it will need a missing HP component with that flat number to keep it in check and maintain her clutch/bait identity.

The ally cast of this ability doesn't heal, but instead offers greater damage reduction? If this is the case her kit becoming inconsistent. Imo one of the mistakes Riot made with their 5.10 changes was the fact that they made Karma's Mantra's feel too similar to her base abilities: RQ? More damage, RW? Longer root but at least it heals, RE? Bigger shield for everyone.

E: Inspire [Reworked]

  • Karma shields the target allied champion or herself for 70/95/120/145/170 (+ 50% AP) 4 seconds, granting them40/45/50/55/60%> 35/40/45/50/55% decaying bonus movement speed for 1.25/1.25/1.5/1.5/2 seconds.
  • [New] Shield strength and move speed buff increases by 2% for every 1% missing health

Absolutely love the idea of making her shields more effective on lower HP targets, and I think this could be a cool space for her to shine as a support. But her heal also needs to do this, especially for allies.

Defiance

  • Inspire overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield, shielding all nearby allied champions for 30% of the base amount and granting them the same base movement speed
  • [New] the shield of the initial target deals damage around them scaling with stacks of gathering fire

Yes. :)

R: Mantra [reworked?]

  • Passive: Karma reduces Mantra's cool down by 2-3>1/1.25/1.5/2 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability as well as every time a tethered/shielded ally takes damage from an ability, damaging enemies with auto attacks gives back half the cool down.
  • Active: Empowers Karma's next ability

Another very popular suggestion for Karma, but I'm thinking if you want less Mantras early wouldn't it be better to just increase its early CD rather than make her passive scale from 1-2s?

jocomotion1 votes

Hey Iceborn king thanks for the thoughts and feedback I really appreciate it! Here are some more of mine too.

  • Whenever  or her nearby allies take damage she gains stacks of gathering fire. Karma can consume these stacks by using a mantra'd ability, granting them extra power in different ways. Example: (not sure how this would actually be implemented but here's a short example of what I mean.) every 10%max health lost by karma and her nearby allies grants 1 stack of gathering fire every nearby ally champion death grants 5 stacks

I've seen passive suggestions similar to this a few times. I think it's cool and add thematic flavour, something Karma has been lacking for a long time.

1: : Yeah, I think karma's passive right now is pretty bland since it only interacts with her ult. And yes, while her ult does interact with the rest of her abilities itself, I don't think that's a valid excuse to make it so. Heimerdinger , for example has a somewhat similar ult, but his passive is tuned more to his entire gameplay fantasy, I just feel like Karma deserves something small, but similar. I wanted to connect something to both her name and her lore and I thought of that moment when the Noxian army was slaughtering the monks around her, so she blasted them, and thought "hey, I bet riot could fulfill this gameplay fantasy".

  • Karma fires a projectile that detonates upon hitting an enemy dealing80/125/170/215/260 (+ 60% AP)> 65/100/135/170/205 (+40% AP) flat magic damage to all nearby enemies and slowing them by 25%> 25%/30%/35%/45%/45% for 1.5 seconds
  • [New] Also deals and (New) 5%/8%/11%/14%/17% current health magic damage

Really don't think Karma ought to be messing around with % hp damage. This seems like an attempt at making her a little more target agnostic by improving her damage against tanks, which I think is a bad idea considering the rest of her kit.

2: The Idea for the Q was kind of similar to my idea for her E, where the lower the HP of an ally is, the more it shields/speed buffs them. With the Q i just wanted it to deal more damage on healthier enemies and less on weaker ones, but I do see/agree with your point on it being too strong against tanks since karma's not supposed to be a tank killer. So if not current health damage maybe lowering the base damage and ratio to around 50% and making it deal say 5% increased damage per 10% current HP, maxing out at a 50% damage increase in total if they're at full health is a better way to show what I was going for.

  • Karma forms a tether between herself and an enemy/ALLY for two seconds
  • On enemy cast: grants true sight and deals 30/55/80/105/130 (+ 45% AP) magic damage per second to an enemy as well as rooting them for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2>.5/.75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds if the tether persists
  • [New] On Ally Cast: Karma grants her ally 5%/9%/13%/17%/21% (+ 3% per 100AP) damage reduction taking half of the damage reduced her self
  • [New] Enemies who walk between Karma and a tethered target take 30/55/80/105/130 (+ 45% AP) magic damage each time (cannot be damaged again within the span of .5 seconds)

Love that W has an ally function, but I'm just not sure how appreciable the % damage reduction would be, particularly on squishies. If her W were to have an effect like this is perhaps consider increasing the ally duration to at least 4s so they can have a decent amount time to enjoy the buff.

Also love that you're bringing back the tether damage, although personally I'd reserve it for the Mantra so that the benefits of using Mantra on this ability are clearer and more distinct.

  • On enemy cast: Focused resolve heals Karma for Karma for 20% (+1% per 100 AP) missing health> 50/100/150/200 (+ 65% AP) each second the tether is connected to an enemy -[New] for every stack of gathering fire karma has, she increases the duration of the tether by .1 second
  • [removed] No longer automatically increases root duration.
  • On Ally cast: The damage Karma would normally take instead heals her
  • Grants bonus damage reduction scaling with stacks of gathering fire

Part of the reason Karma has a missing HP heal is so that it isn't effective as a tool to keep yourself topped off, this version is really strong at keeping you topped off. Personally I wouldn't go this route, especially with your passive. At 5 stacks you'll be increasing the duration of your tether to 4.5* seconds and healing for 200+65% AP for each of those seconds... imagine what playing against that would feel like. Flat numbers are good, but I think she's going to have a heal it will need a missing HP component with that flat number to keep it in check and maintain her clutch/bait identity.

3: W was hard for me, I felt it needed the most changes, but I wasn't too sure on how to implement the move Renewal to an ally, I wanted a heal, but with Karma's pretty short cool downs and automatic CDR on gathering fire I didn't want her to be a "Soraka that dealt damage." To be honest I'm not sure how to change up the UltW on allies to make it better, and I'm open to suggestions. As for the Damage reduction duration, yeah, I'm pretty sure that was a typo. I had it go for 3.5 seconds when I thought of it, but I don't think I put that in. As for the ulted root duration, I see your point on the potentially long CC, and again, I had trouble thinking of an interaction here to utilize with this move instead of flat numbers, its already a hard CC that heals her, I'm not sure if I should add anything. Perhaps Making the damage on the tether increase when enemies walk into it? or only allow that damage on ulted tether like you said. Not sure, but it has some potential

The ally cast of this ability doesn't heal, but instead offers greater damage reduction? If this is the case her kit becoming inconsistent. Imo one of the mistakes Riot made with their 5.10 changes was the fact that they made Karma's Mantra's feel too similar to her base abilities: RQ? More damage, RW? Longer root but at least it heals, RE? Bigger shield for everyone.

  • Karma shields the target allied champion or herself for 70/95/120/145/170 (+ 50% AP) 4 seconds, granting them40/45/50/55/60%> 35/40/45/50/55% decaying bonus movement speed for 1.25/1.25/1.5/1.5/2 seconds.
  • [New] Shield strength and move speed buff increases by 2% for every 1% missing health

Absolutely love the idea of making her shields more effective on lower HP targets, and I think this could be a cool space for her to shine as a support. But her heal also needs to do this, especially for allies.

  • Inspire overflows with energy, increasing the target's shield, shielding all nearby allied champions for 30% of the base amount and granting them the same base movement speed
  • [New] the shield of the initial target deals damage around them scaling with stacks of gathering fire

Yes. :)

4: I second your Yes on the E changes. :D I feel like karma's shields are always too powerful or too weak depending on the nerf or buff riot gives them. This gives her a bit more power, but not too much to snowball out of control with.

  • Passive: Karma reduces Mantra's cool down by 2-3>1/1.25/1.5/2 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability as well as every time a tethered/shielded ally takes damage from an ability, damaging enemies with auto attacks gives back half the cool down.
  • Active: Empowers Karma's next ability

Another very popular suggestion for Karma, but I'm thinking if you want less Mantras early wouldn't it be better to just increase its early CD rather than make her passive scale from 1-2s?

5: You're idea is probably better, but by powering up mantra'd abilities I wanted to increase the overall cooldown of mantra so It wouldn't spiral out of control. I wanted to REALLY hit her early though since, even at her weak state right now, karma's early game is super strong and abusable. plus with the extra AOE i gave her on her Q, the tether damage on her W, and the AOE damage on her ulted E, it's easier to hit multiple targets so to compensate I shortened gathering fire's passive rather than extending mantra's cooldown. Both would've yielded similar results, but I think this one is a bit more effective at showing off skill expression.

jocomotion1 votes

Got another concept right here if you want to take a looksy. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LGUBzT0O-karma-update-take-two

inplane3 votes

I like how Q is being reworked into something more Support-like. I think the type of projectile should be changed as well because a linear skillshot still makes her more of a Poke Mage than a Battlemage and doesn't mesh well with her up-close and personal use of E and W. Everything else is good, especially her E and passive. Giving Karma more decisions is what she needs right now. Her current playstyle is horrendously static.

jocomotion1 votes

Yeah, the goal was to make her Q less powerful, without being weak, which was pretty difficult since it was such a simple ability, then I had the idea of it dealing more damage to enemies with more health, otherwise known as %current health damage, However this would make her a tank killer, which supports shouldn't really be doing. However I still think an Idea like this could work.

Hochelaga1 votes

either Super strong, forcing her enemy out of lane with her strong poke and shields, or she's laughably lackluster compared to other champs because of her low damage and shielding numbers. On top of that, R, Mantra doesn't offer the utility needed in each spell. If you're mid you RQ, Top RW, Support RE, the only time you'll change this rule is during laning phase.

Really.

jocomotion1 votes

{quoted}

Really.

I suppose I didn't explain myself well here, I was trying to show that Karma is too Stat-reliant. If her stats are buffed and her numbers are high, she just bully's lanes since her skills are simple and easy to use. Yet on the other end, If she's been nerfed and her numbers aren't good, she lacks the required utility to fill a niche and becomes a weaker generalist support that does just about all jobs worse than other supports could. As for the Mantra'd abilities, I wanted to add more decision making behind them, rather than "If you build AP 90% of the time you'll RQ, if you're tank you'll RW, and if you're support you'll RE"

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