Are Keystones a faliure?

arc95·Dec 23, 2016·15 votes·744 views

As of now I think they are and I would personally like to see them phased out

they never have been balanced and I doubt they ever will... with such a large champion pool things that buff certain effects and play styles so considerably are going to always create a glaring power discrepancy throughout the full pool and will more than likely always find ways to give unwanted power to champions that shouldn't use them(or excessive power to champions that should)

Fervor on tank assassins Original bloodlust on Tryn and Yasuo CotC on Vi on Poppy League of Thunderlords Grasp on GP and Gnar SotA in the Jungle(specifically Rek & Grag) etc.

also they generate balancing nightmares

such as this situation Champion X abuses Keystone Y

ok nerf Champ X to balance them...

patch or 2 later nerf Keystone Y becasue it is still too strong on other champions of that class

now Champion X is totally dumpstered

10 Comments

sit kidDec 23, 20166 votes

Yes, remove them for the love of god...

We haven't either seen a melee carry (outside zed) go full damage in LCS since the addition of them, because semi-tank just is better

Prophet of DecayDec 23, 20164 votes

Original bloodlust on Tryn

The icon for bloodlust is literally Tryndamere.

Teridax68Dec 24, 20163 votes

I don't think masteries have been an especially successful system in the long run, it's just that Keystones made that more apparent. Even before Keystones, there wasn't much variety to mastery choices for any given champion, and any balance changes there were liable to often seriously affect the state of specific outliers. When the Perseverance mastery from Season 4 was nerfed, for example, champions like Garen and Mundo suffered horribly, and Mundo himself received a mini-rework to his E to let him do better in lane.

In the end, masteries aren't unique in how they affect champion balance, since items obviously do that as well, but they do add an extra layer of complication for benefits that items already achieve, i.e. champion customization and unique gameplay bonuses. At this point, it might be better to get rid of the mastery system, and port its more interesting effects to items. Courage of the Colossus wouldn't be such an issue on Riven if it were attached to a tank item, for example, and effects like Fervor of Battle and Bond of Stone already exist on items (Guinsoo's Rageblade and Knight's Vow, respectively).

LovelleDec 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't think masteries have been an especially successful system in the long run, it's just that Keystones made that more apparent. Even before Keystones, there wasn't much variety to mastery choices for any given champion, and any balance changes there were liable to often seriously affect the state of specific outliers. When the Perseverance mastery from Season 4 was nerfed, for example, champions like Garen and Mundo suffered horribly, and Mundo himself received a mini-rework to his E to let him do better in lane.

In the end, masteries aren't unique in how they affect champion balance, since items obviously do that as well, but they do add an extra layer of complication for benefits that items already achieve, i.e. champion customization and unique gameplay bonuses. At this point, it might be better to get rid of the mastery system, and port its more interesting effects to items. Courage of the Colossus wouldn't be such an issue on Riven if it were attached to a tank item, for example, and effects like Fervor of Battle and Bond of Stone already exist on items (Guinsoo's Rageblade and Knight's Vow, respectively).

This is a good idea.

LovelleDec 24, 20163 votes

As much as I like CotC, I'd be all for removing keystones in return for better late game scaling masteries, especially defensive ones. Personally, I would like to see the %crit and AoE damage reduction masteries return from season 2.

The Yetii RiderDec 24, 20162 votes

Keystones have done what they were intended to do. They are visible and threatening masteries. They change the way champions play.

MarshbouyDec 24, 20162 votes

But at what cost?

The Yetii RiderDec 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But at what cost?

Not all that much. We have a few outliers, but most of the roster needed a power boost. In particular, AP supports benefit greatly from the addition of Thunderlords Decree. Until that was added, Sona Zyra and Lulu didn't even scratch Thresh Braum or Leona, and we had nothing but tank supports for nearly two years.

AhristocatsDec 24, 20162 votes

cough bond of garbage cough windspeaker

AbyssphereDec 24, 20161 votes

People massively overestimate the damage that keystones have done to balance. Like, mentioning "this champion was very strong with a keystone, this is a problem!" - what? It's a game system, this happens with all of them. Syndra's ridiculous with Rylai's, every immobile mage is ridiculous with Ghost, Irelia was ridiculous with Trinity Force, Miss Fortune was ridiculous with armour pen items. Every jungl tank was ridiculous with Cinderhulk and a variety of playmaking characters were ridiculous with Dead Man's Plate. You even complain about "nerf champion, then nerf keystones = champion gutted" when that's much more commonly a thing we see with items.

Keystones are no more guilty of skewing balance than any other impactful game system that champions interact with. If you want to remove every game system that effects the balance of a champion then items need to go too, because they're just as if not a bigger deal than keystones. People only think the masteries are such a big issue because it's new and it's been blown into a big circlejerk. They are completely fine and have not committed a single sin that the item system has not at one point or another.