How to fix current AD Carry dominance

Espy Psyche·Dec 8, 2014·5 votes·851 views

The problem is specifically critical strike and the interaction with Infinity Edge. Critical strike is too valuable of a stat, and as such it outshines all other stats.

In non-MOBA games, critical strike is only valued if you have abilities that scale from it. For example, fire mages in World of Warcraft gain bonus critical strike from all sources, as well as getting a free instant nuke by critically striking twice in a row. Because of this, they value crit over haste, but frost mages value haste more than crit because they don't have Incineration and Hot Streak.

To translate that into actual buffs and nerfs that can occur, we would need:

Critical strike damage bonus reduced from 200% to 180% Infinity Edge critical strike damage bonus reduced from 250% to 210%.

What does this do in terms of gameplay? It nerfs all crit-reliant marksmen without nerfing non-crit marksmen. Champions like Tristana, Graves, and Jinx that rush Infinity Edge would be affected, without affecting champions like Kog'maw, Lucian, and Ezreal who don't. It would also change optimal builds for these champions. Common builds would start to include items like Zephyr or Black Cleaver in place of Infinity Edge and Statikk Shiv. Essence Reaver could find a place in the game.

Now what of the champions whose kits synergize with crit? Currently the only champions in game with kits that synergize with it are Tryndamere, Gangplank, Master Yi, Yasuo, Ashe, and Garen. Though the critical strike nerf would nerf these champions, critical strike would remain for them a more valuable stat than AS or ArPen. They would still build as they do and use their crit synergy.

21 Comments

SmokingPuffinDec 8, 20143 votes

Why is this desirable? I'm pretty sure you just wrecked ADC balance, and you didn't explain why it's necessary.

Earlier we had a BT first meta, and IE was typically built as a 5th item if at all. Not much was different about the ADC role balance; we just pllayed different ADCs.

Earl EulrichDec 8, 20141 votes

not at all (just look at the recent rise of graves, one of the classical BT-Carries). What those changes did had been to allow ADCs to have a lot stronger midgame than they had before. If you hadn´t been fed in the old system you had a strong laning as ADC, a mediocre midgame and a really strong/oppressive lategame - now that mediocre midgame is gone, you have the power all game long. There´s just no phase of weakness anymore that you could hope to fight back against carries with tanks, now it´s all over again the "blow them up or lose"-meta, there aren´t any Champs left that xcould really zone them out of a fight effectivly for long enough to have an impact.

SmokingPuffinDec 8, 20142 votes

not at all (just look at the recent rise of graves, one of the classical BT-Carries).

To be clear, I think this change wrecks ADC balance because the strongest carry group already doesn't get ideal value from IE. Corki and Lucian will extend their lead over the pack, and the non-castery ADCs that are already rare will become even weaker since IE is their ideal rush item.

We will end up with the season 2 meta of Corki/Ezreal/Graves plus Lucian, who is basically their brother in kit design. Do not want IE to become weaker right now unless you nerf BT/TF and probably ER/BoRK too.

What those changes did had been to allow ADCs to have a lot stronger midgame than they had before. If you hadn´t been fed in the old system you had a strong laning as ADC, a mediocre midgame and a really strong/oppressive lategame - now that mediocre midgame is gone, you have the power all game long.

I disagree completely. The BT meta was defined by strong midgame carries that didn't scale very well into late game. The poster child for your strong lane / weak midgame / oppressive lategame power curve is Tristana, and she was awful in the BT meta.

There´s just no phase of weakness anymore that you could hope to fight back against carries with tanks, now it´s all over again the "blow them up or lose"-meta, there aren´t any Champs left that xcould really zone them out of a fight effectivly for long enough to have an impact.

I don't entirely disagree, but I also really don't think a BT meta is desirable to repair this. Tanks aren't weak against ADCs, they're weak against everything right now. Barely any tanks can lane and they have weak, vulnerable jungle clears too. The class as a whole has been struggling since before season 4.

I think giving ADCs abundant lifesteal in exchange for somewhat less damage is precisely what tanks do not want. Nautilus has a chance to kill a one item IE carry but zero hope of killing a one item BT carry.

Earl EulrichDec 9, 20141 votes

I disagree completely. The BT meta was defined by strong midgame carries that didn't scale very well into late game. The poster child for your strong lane / weak midgame / oppressive lategame power curve is Tristana, and she was awful in the BT meta.

This my maybe hold if you compare the lategame of Graves to the likes of Tris and Kog...but if you compare it to anything non-marksmen/melee-carry then his lategame is still absolutelly shreding apart those guys.

To be clear, I think this change wrecks ADC balance because the strongest carry group already doesn't get ideal value from IE. Corki and Lucian will extend their lead over the pack, and the non-castery ADCs that are already rare will become even weaker since IE is their ideal rush item.

this is not really true though. Anyone that uses auto-attacks profits massively from Crit. The problem now is that IE also provides the highest AD on the slot...so for the likes of Graves it´s basically the same spelldmg with IE as it would be with rushing BT - but with the potential for additionally burst in the Form of 250%AA-Dmg + more dps compared to BT - and as the game resolves around protecting ones carries they donßt direly need the defense from BT to stay relevant, so they just max out dmg. The cruical part here is now that they follow it up with a SS usually, as with IE already rushed the gain from additional crit/as is just much bigger then going for more pen/AD to enhance the AD-caster-pattern. Lucian is in the very same boat, you wouldn´t see him really being around if his passive wouldn´t be allowed to (ab)use crit. Corki is just a special case of having too much basestats overall, leading to an absolutely dominant laning-phase (and then leading to drakes/starting a snowball). So wit htuning down IE you would open up more build-paths than crit->more crit, allwoing for all sorts of Carries to shine - while also tuning down the midgame of Carries a tad, which is the really important thing here. Right now they are just too strong with only 1-2items finished.

Tanks aren't weak against ADCs, they're weak against everything right now. Barely any tanks can lane and they have weak, vulnerable jungle clears too. The class as a whole has been struggling since before season 4.

Whiel this is somewhat true, the AD-itemization is a big part of that issue. Especially Arp...though later on it´s quite easy to get tanky vs mages, while it is absolutelly impossible to get tanky vs AD-carries.

I think giving ADCs abundant lifesteal in exchange for somewhat less damage is precisely what tanks do not want. Nautilus has a chance to kill a one item IE carry but zero hope of killing a one item BT carry.

Tat´s just the problem: A tank should not kill a carry by himself - but he should be able to zone him effectively and such keep his team save so they can then come and help him fight that carry once they finished dealing with the opponent team. Against the BT-Rush Naut can hold his ground much longer against the IE, especially if the owner is a tad more on the lucky side of RNG.

SmokingPuffinDec 9, 20141 votes

This my maybe hold if you compare the lategame of Graves to the likes of Tris and Kog...but if you compare it to anything non-marksmen/melee-carry then his lategame is still absolutelly shreding apart those guys.

If your complaint is that lategame carries are too strong, you're not going to fix that by moving from an IE meta to a BT meta. That will just make them a different kind of strong.

Anyone that uses auto-attacks profits massively from Crit.

It's a question of relative benefit. Corki gets a lot of benefit from crit. Compared to an autoattack focused carry, though, he is getting much less. Thus, a nerf to IE will hurt Corki less than say Ashe or Jinx. Considering that AD caster carries are currently the top dogs, changes that nerf others more than them are not desirable.

The problem now is that IE also provides the highest AD on the slot...so for the likes of Graves it´s basically the same spelldmg with IE as it would be with rushing BT - but with the potential for additionally burst in the Form of 250%AA-Dmg + more dps compared to BT - and as the game resolves around protecting ones carries they donßt direly need the defense from BT to stay relevant, so they just max out dmg.

Riot intentionally made BT a bad first item. They don't like how its combination of AD and sustain leads to lanes ending as soon as the first BT is purchased. This is a problem you will need to consider if you intend to resurrect the BT meta, by the way.

So wit htuning down IE you would open up more build-paths than crit->more crit, allwoing for all sorts of Carries to shine - while also tuning down the midgame of Carries a tad, which is the really important thing here. Right now they are just too strong with only 1-2items finished.

I think you have this backwards. The power curve of a BT meta is more midgame focused than an IE meta.

Whiel this is somewhat true, the AD-itemization is a big part of that issue. Especially Arp...though later on it´s quite easy to get tanky vs mages, while it is absolutelly impossible to get tanky vs AD-carries.

Offense must outscale defense in the late game, or games don't end on time and hyper-late game champions win every game.

Tat´s just the problem: A tank should not kill a carry by himself - but he should be able to zone him effectively and such keep his team save so they can then come and help him fight that carry once they finished dealing with the opponent team. Against the BT-Rush Naut can hold his ground much longer against the IE, especially if the owner is a tad more on the lucky side of RNG.

In the midgame, a Lucian with just an old BT (or a TF for that matter) did more burst damage than a Lucian with just a new IE. Corki never builds IE first anyway, so he's not really relevant for this talk, but he likes BT first better than IE first too.

Now, if you nerfed IE and left new BT as it is, then yes, new BT is pretty sucky as a first item and tanks would live longer against a new BT rush than current IE. What you would see in this case is triforce carries dominating, and triforce carries already kill tanks better with one item than any IE carry.

Earl EulrichDec 9, 20141 votes

If your complaint is that lategame carries are too strong, you're not going to fix that by moving from an IE meta to a BT meta. That will just make them a different kind of strong.

It´s ok that they are strong lategame...however it´s not ok that they are also dominant druing laning and during midgame (and totally broken lategame, not just "strong").

It's a question of relative benefit. Corki gets a lot of benefit from crit. Compared to an autoattack focused carry, though, he is getting much less. Thus, a nerf to IE will hurt Corki less than say Ashe or Jinx. Considering that AD caster carries are currently the top dogs, changes that nerf others more than them are not desirable.

this is not necessarily true...utility carries like Ashe scale very well with AD-Caster-builds (meaning CDR/Pen/AD > Crit/AS) - but those builds currently just get massively outperformed by Crit-builds. (and corki is really a bad example, he just needs a nerf to his base-stats furthermost).

I think you have this backwards. The power curve of a BT meta is more midgame focused than an IE meta.

Again, you make the mistake to only comapre them to other carries - but relatively tanks could still tank a Carry midgame druing S2 for really long. Nowadays you won´t see that happen, as the ADC-midgame is relatively more powerfull than earlier.

Offense must outscale defense in the late game, or games don't end on time and hyper-late game champions win every game.

That´s could lead to a big debate on general-design - but let´s just say I agree basically. However, it´s not necessary on the scale it currently happens.

n the midgame, a Lucian with just an old BT (or a TF for that matter) did more burst damage than a Lucian with just a new IE. Corki never builds IE first anyway, so he's not really relevant for this talk, but he likes BT first better than IE first too.

more burst? That entirely depends on the luck of that Lucian. you wonßt ever come close to the Burst of an IE-crit with a BT, even back when it had been 100 AD. (and I´m not sure since when Trinity-Ez has become the tank-killer nr 1).

SmokingPuffinDec 9, 20141 votes

It´s ok that they are strong lategame...however it´s not ok that they are also dominant druing laning and during midgame (and totally broken lategame, not just "strong").

Marksmen aren't dominant in the laning phase. Solo marksmen really aren't strong; only a few are even viable in a solo lane. When you see something like Quinn top, it's against a specific melee champion that can't handle kiting. If you pick a marksman first, you're probably about to get wrecked by something more appropriate for a solo lane, like say Ahri.

The reason marksmen seem strong in lane is that supports are dominant laners, and marksmen are rarely seen without their supports.

Again, you make the mistake to only comapre them to other carries - but relatively tanks could still tank a Carry midgame druing S2 for really long. Nowadays you won´t see that happen, as the ADC-midgame is relatively more powerfull than earlier.

Your point here isn't wrong, but it also isn't about carries. Carries are also much weaker than they were in season 2 -- if you math it out, they do about half as much damage today as they did then. When compared to mages, assassins, and supports, carries are considerably weaker than they used to be.

This complaint is about the nerfs to tanky stuff in season 3. Specifically, the penetration formula change and the move from resistance stacking to health stacking really hurt the tank midgame. You are not going to fix this by changing carry itemization.

Earl EulrichDec 9, 20141 votes

Marksmen aren't dominant in the laning phase. Solo marksmen really aren't strong; only a few are even viable in a solo lane. When you see something like Quinn top, it's against a specific melee champion that can't handle kiting. If you pick a marksman first, you're probably about to get wrecked by something more appropriate for a solo lane, like say Ahri.

that´s just a plain myth. Just watch some games from this season...you´ll see a lot of kog/twitch vs mao and similars solotop in laneswaps to hand them a lvl advantage - and they win pretty heavily vs their topölane-opponents. In midlane it only gets worse, as they can´t even be ganked there and still dominate most matchups. The reason they are paired with the support bot is that they don´t need the XP as direly as other champs, so scaling with gold primarily is alright for them in that lane...not because they cannot handle a sololane.

This complaint is about the nerfs to tanky stuff in season 3. Specifically, the penetration formula change and the move from resistance stacking to health stacking really hurt the tank midgame. You are not going to fix this by changing carry itemization.

? How would you fix it if you won´t touch Arp and Crit, the two things that heavily outscale armor from the get go. You can´t just double the values of every Armor Item in the game.

SmokingPuffinDec 9, 20141 votes

that´s just a plain myth. Just watch some games from this season...you´ll see a lot of kog/twitch vs mao and similars solotop in laneswaps to hand them a lvl advantage - and they win pretty heavily vs their topölane-opponents.

This isn't Kog and Twitch being good solo laners. This is Maokai (and tanks, more generally) sucking in 1v1 situations. This weekend's IEM saw a Poppy picked into Maokai, because she's good late game and they knew Maokai can't punish her weak early game 1v1. If you can't manhandle Poppy, you know you're not good in lane phase.

In midlane it only gets worse, as they can´t even be ganked there and still dominate most matchups.

Most marksmen have zero hope in a solo lane. Miss Fortune? Bad luck, no fun. Ashe? Hasn't been viable mid since season 1, let alone top. Only the slipperiest ADCs have any chance in a solo lane.

Even the strongest mid lane ADC (Corki, who's just generally overtuned right now) still is only average against typical midlaners. You pick a fairly good ADC, let's say Graves, and he's gonna get stomped by Ahri, Syndra, etc.

? How would you fix it if you won´t touch Arp and Crit, the two things that heavily outscale armor from the get go. You can´t just double the values of every Armor Item in the game.

It's a systems level problem that needs systems level solutions. Fundamentally, the changes to penetration formulae and the rework of tank itemization to favor health are why tanks are weak in the midgame. That said, this is an easy math problem to solve; probably you strengthen the first tank item relative to the first carry item, then you rework Last Whisper and Void Staff to be more focused resistance-stacking killers.

The real problem is convincing Riot that it's a good idea. The fundamental reason why tanks got shafted in season 3 is that bruisers were ruling the first 45 minutes in season 2, and bruisers use almost the same itemization and build paths as tanks. You have to sell them on a way to make tanks good that doesn't result in bruisers taking over the game again. Also, Riot may believe that an offensively-biased game is more fun to play than a defensively-oriented one; we know they hate "wet noodle fights", for example.

Earl EulrichDec 9, 20141 votes

You seem to have not much experience how to lane as a carry if you have trouble sololaning them. The sole reason they aren´t played top often is that they are easy to gank most of the time.

For the more interessting discussion however:

t's a systems level problem that needs systems level solutions. Fundamentally, the changes to penetration formulae and the rework of tank itemization to favor health are why tanks are weak in the midgame. That said, this is an easy math problem to solve; probably you strengthen the first tank item relative to the first carry item, then you rework Last Whisper and Void Staff to be more focused resistance-stacking killers.

The real problem is convincing Riot that it's a good idea. The fundamental reason why tanks got shafted in >season 3 is that bruisers were ruling the first 45 minutes in season 2, and bruisers use almost the same itemization and build paths as tanks. You have to sell them on a way to make tanks good that doesn't result in bruisers taking over the game again. Also, Riot may believe that an offensively-biased game is more fun to play than a defensively-oriented one; we know they hate "wet noodle fights", for example.

Though Arp isn´t the only problem, another is that Itemization that is meant to be good vs tanks also is used very often to just kill squishies (botrk rush on assassins, early LW on assassins, Lucian double-crit assassination of squishies with a stat that in theorie aims for dps...). There´s just really much to fix right now.

And yea, it seems convincing Riot that Tanks should have a place in their game seems really an impossible task unfortunatelly.

SmokingPuffinDec 9, 20141 votes

You seem to have not much experience how to lane as a carry if you have trouble sololaning them. The sole reason they aren´t played top often is that they are easy to gank most of the time.

This is only true for the carries that are really good at kiting, like say Quinn or Vayne. If you take the average ADC top, which is someone more like Kog or Twitch, you're gonna get murdered 1v1 by most laners. Remember, there are 17 ADCs in the game, and only a few are ever considered top.

Even the kiting-oriented ADCs are largely just anti-melee specialists. Opposing ranged tops, like say Lissandra or Gnar, still make most of them cry for mommy in a 1v1 context. If you're looking for genuinely strong solo laners among the marksmen, it's pretty much just Caitlyn and maybe Corki.

Though Arp isn´t the only problem, another is that Itemization that is meant to be good vs tanks also is used very often to just kill squishies (botrk rush on assassins, early LW on assassins, Lucian double-crit assassination of squishies with a stat that in theorie aims for dps...). There´s just really much to fix right now.

To me, the elephant in the room is LW. It's too generalist; strong enough against squishies that it's a reasonable second item on someone like Zed. LW should be useful only against armor stacking, not a core item for anyone who likes doing physical damage to anyone. Desired change: -AD and a larger %pen that applies only to bonus armor. This item should be actively bad against squishies.

I don't actually think flat pen is a problem. It's for killing squishies and it does that job. Not actually good for killing tanks.

BoRK is problematic to some extent as well, but I really think the %hp on that item is a minor part of what makes it useful.

And yea, it seems convincing Riot that Tanks should have a place in their game seems really an impossible task unfortunatelly.

Mmm hmm. At least Sejuani is getting some love. Possibly we'll see enough tanks buffed that they might exist as a class again, rather than just "Maokai is pretty good".

Earl EulrichDec 9, 20141 votes

Let´s say we rather quit the Sololane-ADC thing, as it´s pretty clear you never played a good Ashe mid or the likes and it won´t lead to much anyway, so let´s rather focus on the (maybe) less subjective thing:

To me, the elephant in the room is LW. It's too generalist; strong enough against squishies that it's a reasonable second item on someone like Zed. LW should be useful only against armor stacking, not a core item for anyone who likes doing physical damage to anyone. Desired change: -AD and a larger %pen that applies only to bonus armor. This item should be actively bad against squishies.

I think they actually should just change every %-Arp into a stacking mechanic like on BC, so you really need to focus on your target to make it worth it (but if you focus for let´s say 5-7sec depending on AS then it should be noticeably stronger than the current one) - that would make it les desirable for blowing up squishies, but also wouln´t lead to cases were tanks just get blown to bits within seconds, making all attempts to build armor a follish thing.

I agree on flatpen, that´s probably fine (though maybe a little snowbally early on)

For Botrk it´s simple...the combination of AS, AD, lifeleech and the passive+active is just way over the top currently. That item has it all in one and offers you a brutal duelling powerspike when rushed. It should really get splittet into one item with the active+ad+xy that focuses on the kite/all in aspect and one item with AS+the %healthdmg that focuses on getting rid of high-hp targets (to an extend).

Mmm hmm. At least Sejuani is getting some love. Possibly we'll see enough tanks buffed that they might exist as a class again, rather than just "Maokai is pretty good".

Though this is not so much "Maokai is pretty good", it´s more "Maokai has an additional multiplier that allos him to scale better than other tanks and have an ok lategame vs all the dmg - also known as -%reduce onto all dmg"...Alistar had the exact same thing going for him when he had been the dominant toplaner before his lanebully-capability with w+AA got taken away.

So maybe this would be another solution...add another multiplier to tank-itemization in the form of -%dmg-taken to allow them to actually scale accordingly throughout the game.

SmokingPuffinDec 9, 20141 votes

Let´s say we rather quit the Sololane-ADC thing, as it´s pretty clear you never played a good Ashe mid

Okay. To be clear, I haven't seen this work in years in a serious game.

I think they actually should just change every %-Arp into a stacking mechanic like on BC, so you really need to focus on your target to make it worth it (but if you focus for let´s say 5-7sec depending on AS then it should be noticeably stronger than the current one)

I don't know about this. A stacking mechanic is inherently a tank killer. Probably not something we want to push if our goal is to improve tank viability.

For Botrk it´s simple...the combination of AS, AD, lifeleech and the passive+active is just way over the top currently. That item has it all in one and offers you a brutal duelling powerspike when rushed. It should really get splittet into one item with the active+ad+xy that focuses on the kite/all in aspect and one item with AS+the %healthdmg that focuses on getting rid of high-hp targets (to an extend).

I can get behind splitting BoRK into an assassin all-in item and a tank shredder item. I don't have much of a beef with BoRK's role as a Zed rush item; my concern here is that you are accidentally buying tank shred on an item you would have bought without it being good against tanks.

So maybe this would be another solution...add another multiplier to tank-itemization in the form of -%dmg-taken to allow them to actually scale accordingly throughout the game.

Feels dangerous. Each subsequent item with this mechanic is stronger than the last. That means we can't make more than a couple. Still maybe possible, in the same way that you can't make more than a couple spell vamp items.

Wise SquirrelDec 8, 20142 votes

You are confusing AD items with new generation ADCs, it is not their items which need toning down, but their kits (Which are packed with free damage and mobility out of every crevice).

Itemization is fine.

Earl EulrichDec 8, 20142 votes

new generation? the only thing new that sees play is Lucian...corki, twitch, graves and ez are all fairly old.

HadesHellfireDec 8, 20142 votes

Yes, you do have a point, but look at it from the adc's point of view. it's already hard enough for and adc to beat mid laners, a lot of top laners, and some junglers. removing some crit damage could hurt adc's. if you're having trouble beating adc's, your team might have one of these 3 problems:

Not enough dps
Not enough cc
No focus

there are too many champions that already wreck adc's such as all mid laners, riven, vi, lee sin, and many more, and nerfing crit could make it even harder for the adc's to match up against these champions.

you can beat most crit-synergy champs with proper plays and cc (except maybe trynd. hes a special case)

Sightless66Dec 8, 20142 votes

Common builds would start to include items like Zephyr or Black Cleaver in place of Infinity Edge and Statikk Shiv. Essence Reaver could find a place in the game.

No they wouldn't. I'm still not building a Zephyr over Statikk Shiv. Even without Infinity Edge, Shiv is just. Black Cleaver sucks for AD carries because it gives terrible autoattacking stats. Essence Reaver would still never be built when bloodthirster could be built instead.

Something you have to understand is that we're not just building crit on almost all AD carries because crit is good. We're building it because CDR itemization sucks unless you have flat CDR on the champion's kit to make % CDR a more worthwhile stat (see Lucian's E and Ezreal's Q). Even champions like Graves who should like CDR and other caster stats don't build CDR because the itemization for it is terrible. I can get Essence Reaver, which has gold tied up in a useless passive, I can get brutalizer, which builds into one decent item and one worthless one, and I can build Zephyr, which sucks for autoattacking.

I really can't emphasize this enough. Even back when IE was built last or not at all, AD carries didn't build Zephyr, Cleaver or anything of the like. The build sucked then, and it would suck now. All it means is that we'd replace Infinity Edge with something like bloodthirster early on in a build.

Though the critical strike nerf would nerf these champions, critical strike would remain for them a more valuable stat than AS or ArPen. They would still build as they do and use their crit synergy.

How is that a good thing? "They're nerfed, but they'll build the same, so it's ok"? What exactly is the logic? Some of these champions can't take a nerf. Ashe can't get any worse without dropping off the map entirely, and Gangplank and Garen aren't even on the map to begin with.

If you actually want to fix the problem of ADC builds, you need to introduce an alternative build that is actually good for caster-based carries. Introduce CDR-based items that don't completely suck for autoattackers, and don't have gold tied up in worthless mana regen.

Your solution wouldn't even fix ADC dominance (if that even exists). It would just shift the top-carries around. In fact, it wouldn't even do that, because Lucian and Corki are two of the best carries and they aren't even reliant on Infinity Edge. You wouldn't even get what you want, you'd just lower the number of viable carries. From any perspective, this isn't a good idea.

Espy PsycheDec 8, 20142 votes

By making crit weaker, it forces AD carries to build smarter instead of following a rigid build that holds true for every AD carry in the game. Instead of going straight down the ADC build, now they have to think about their build choices, which makes for more interactive and less toxic gameplay. It also gives the chance for opponents to itemize against the carries depending on what they're building. It brings some of the less meta ADCs back into the game, which opens the field up for more play. With crit being less strong, people will try out carries like Ezreal and Kog'maw again, who don't use Infinity Edge to be strong.

They'll have to see what the team's doing, and what the enemy's doing. Is the enemy mid lane a problem? Build a Mercurial Scimitar or Maw of Malmortius to get some MR with your AD. Are they just too fast for you to stay on? Try a Zephyr to keep up and a Frozen Mallet to slow them down. Are you having issues getting through their armor? Try a Last Whisper and a Black Cleaver. It opens up the field for Riot to introduce new items as well to fill all the niches that they'll now need because there would be a demand for them.

Some carries might even eventually get crit synergy added into their kits, making crit valuable for them but not for other carries without it. If they did this, I would bet the Ashe rework would get crit synergy in some form.

The numbers I gave might not be perfect. I'm not a member of the balance team, so I don't have a degree in video game balancing. They could likely be tweaked based on play testing. It's entirely possible to get them to a point where they're perfectly balanced.

As far as the melee carries that have crit synergy, they could be buffed to make up for the crit nerf. Tryn and Yasuo in particular because it would hit them fairly hard.

Sightless66Dec 8, 20141 votes

See, here's the problem with your reasoning. There was actually a time, fairly recent in fact, when IE was never rushed on anyone. Before the patch 4.10 ADC item rework, IE was never rushed, and often was not built at all in games. Despite this, carries like Ezreal and Kog weren't played. Items like Zephyr and Cleaver were never built by carries. IE is not the key problem everything else revolves around. These problems have been around for times when IE was unbuilt and unloved.

I'm not going to build Zephyr unless PD and Statik Shiv get nerfed into the ground, or unless I'm replacing my boots. Period. It's not going to happen. So long as I need to autoattack, it will always give less damage than a crit/attack speed item. If I need to get through armor, I will always get a Last Whisper instead of a Cleaver, because Cleaver gives very little to straight autoattacks and the CDR is virtually wasted unless I can get other sources of CDR. Just on stats, I'm not buying that item. The circumstances where i would buy it over or even with a Last Whisper are extremely rare.

The simple fact is, these items suck for AD carries. You need to find a way to improve or change them or introduce new options. Just removing current options won't make these items suck any less. CDR is a shitty stat for carries because you have to give up so much to get it that it ends up costing you more than it gains you.

As for bringing new carries into the game, it won't do that either. Some of the strongest carries, such as Corki and Lucian, are not reliant on IE, and would not be harmed majorly if it got removed. They are still better than other non-ie carries, and would still be played instead of them. Likewise, carries who can afford not to build IE would just completely replace any who could.

Look man, wanting to increase carry diversity is a good goal, but you only have to look at the past to see how this will work. Trying to remove options isn't going to work. A new gold standard will replace the old one instantly, and we'll likely have even less diversity than with the current system. If you want other items to be built, then we need new options to make those builds not suck, because right now any build with a Zephyr or a Cleaver does suck for an ADC, and it will continue to even if IE is completely removed from the game.

Earl EulrichDec 8, 20141 votes

Absolutely agree, AD-Itemization could need some nerfs, especially crit (and arp). Also, tuning down crit-dmg would make IE-rush less frustrating, as those 25%chance crits wouldn´t affect trades as ridiculously hard.

MatthevvDec 9, 20141 votes

This entire thread presumes the fact that adc's are currently an issue in the game. I sure hope for your sake you don't try out dota 2 because in that game, carry actually means carry. ADC's are functioning exactly as intended, there is nothing wrong with their current balance.