I hear, has mobility with somewhat spamable spells, and if they hit you more than once you are probably dead.
When I hear "Easy to play" or "Your champion is broken"
Easily avoidable damage, that is predictable, and often takes multiple rounds of initiation, a nearby teammate (or a very long game nasus) to kill someone.
Anyone else think that this is basically the current state of gameplay?
WoonStruck80 votesDefinitely.
I stomp a game as one of the worst, hardest champions to make work lately (Vlad)? I get told I play a broken, no-skill champ.
Meanwhile vayne critting 70% of someone's HP with a right click is "high skill".
ModCaptainMårvelous35 votesYou're gonna be told that no matter what. People don't care about high or low skill. If it kills you, it's broken.
Supreme Senpai696 votesTo be fair Vayne is high skill. Not because of plays or aiming skillshots or whatever, but because of how hard it is to position as an ADC. Her ult sorta.. makes that less true ever since the removal of pink wards. But Vayne IS high skill. Just because some idiot said you play a broken no-skill champ doesn't mean Vayne is noob freelo. I've had enough feeding Vaynes believe that already pls dont spread this.
WoonStruck19 votesI've seen feeding, horrible Vaynes turn plenty of games around just because they Q'd something and managed to land 3 auto attacks total before they die.
High skill-cap doesn't mean a champ can't be noob freelo.
In general, I agree though. Its essentially the same for Vlad. Positioning to have an effect without mispositioning and getting punished extremely hard can be difficult in a lot of cases.
Pierce The Veal6 votesDefinitely.
I stomp a game as one of the worst, hardest champions to make work lately (Vlad)? I get told I play a broken, no-skill champ.
Meanwhile vayne critting 70% of someone's HP with a right click is "high skill".
Holy shit this. It's not even fun anymore.
I used to main akali. Being a point click champion, she was the target of the "no skill" brigade. And now she's been made into a gimmicky champion who Riot refuses to fix until she gets her VGU. Might as well have not touched her in the first place but nah, Rito knows what to do!
LA Losty4 votesShe is supposed to be mechanically demanding, the thing is you dont even get the chance to outplay opponent before they die. The kits mentioned above are SUPPOSED to take a lot of mechanics as they have a lot of options and mobility, and therefore a lot of tools to outplay their opponents with. Currently many of them dont need to do that as they have the dmg to nuke you anyway.
Bârd41 votesKarthus is by no means an easy champion. I know the "hurr durr press R" memes, but anyone who seriously thinks that is accurate is a damned fool.
Sion has a decently high skill ceiling as well. Being able to steer your ultimate through the jungle, bank it off terrain, and just use it accurately in general can be game changing.
Singed takes almost no mechanical skill, but the map plays he makes can hardly be called brainless.
THE RlVER KlNG28 votesIllaoi has no mobility though....?
Her W range is negligent.
GigglesO2 votes[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ovsUm4Ah,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-01-16T19:45:14.569+0000)
Illaoi has no mobility though....?
Her W range is negligent.
"Harsh Lesson's base cooldown is also reduced to 2 seconds."
THE RlVER KlNG28 votesYou're telling me you can't hit skillshots on a bigass islander lady with a tiny auto-jump.
GULAG 4 U10 voteswhen you're bronze it's hard to do anything x)
nice table5 votesthe irony of a silver calling a diamond "bronze"
SteelMankind26 votesA lot of the champions you have on your "hard to play" list arent actually hard to play at all. I would actually say that Illaoi, Hecarim, and Vi are rather easy to play.
Plenty of the assassins/psuedo-assassins you mentioned are above average in difficulty (Ahri is skillshot-reliant, Fizz and LeBlanc have drawn out burst combos AND skillshots). For their troubles, they're rewarded with having the damage and mobility to do their job.
Rengar, Kat, and Kha'Zix might not have hard skillshots, but their kits inherently forces them to take risks.
Riven and Yasuo are kinda in the odd spot of being stronger than every other champ in the game when mastered, but they ARE hard to play.
Lee and Kat are both too strong atm though. They SHOULD be hard champions, but currently they don't really need to outplay people to snowball and carry.
As for your "easy to play" list, notice how nearly every champion on it is a vanguard or juggernaut. Tanky champs are naturally less rewarding than squishies because they don't have to play around getting hit by stray CC and getting oneshot.
I've never heard anyone say Karthus is easy; pretty sure most people think he's above average difficulty.
GigglesO14 votesA lot of the champions you have on your "hard to play" list arent actually hard to play at all.
Point of this thread proven...
SteelMankind14 votesWhat I meant was that I don't think anyone considers those champs particularly hard, so I'm confused what they're doing in that list. If I'm reading your OP right, your argument is that champions who are traditionally considered hard by the community/Riot are actually not that difficult because of how mobile/high damage they are, and that champs considered easy are actually hard because they don't have the same potential as the hard champions.
I think when most people say a champion is hard/easy, they generally mean hard/easy to play, not hard/easy to climb with.
LankPants11 votesI don't think it was the OPs point, but I think it's fair to say that people overestimate the amount of skill difference required for many champions traditionally perceived to be high skill.
It doesn't take an insane amount more skill to play someone like Lee Sin over someone like Amumu. The entry level skill for playing Lee Sin and Amumu is far closer than the entry level skill for Lee Sin and Azir, who is actually the most skill dependent champ in the game by a wide margin. I wouldn't actually be surprised if the difference in entry skill between the least skill dependent champ in the game and the second highest is smaller than the second highest and Azir.
There's also a different kind of skill to playing champs like Amumu. It's less mechanical and more strategical. People often undervalue this because it's less immediately obvious but it's still there. If you use bad strategy on Lee Sin you always have outs, you have so many options on your kit that you can usually find a way to get away with shitty strategical play. That's not true for less mechanically intensive champs so your overall game knowledge and strategy have to be far more on point than they would with a more mechanical based champion.
GigglesO5 votesLee Sin you always have outs, you have so many options on your kit that you can usually find a way to get away with shitty strategical play. That's not true for less mechanically intensive champs so your overall game knowledge and strategy have to be far more on point than they would with a more mechanical based champion.
This is what bothers me about players that say Lee Sin, and riven et al are "high skill" They pretty much have everything available to them at all times. Want to engage, let me just hop in, disengage, let me hop out. Damage, I have that too, high base ms, got that, some situational tankyness, got that too.
Scazie7 votesA lot of the champions you have on your "hard to play" list arent actually hard to play at all. I would actually say that Illaoi, Hecarim, and Vi are rather easy to play.
Plenty of the assassins/psuedo-assassins you mentioned are above average in difficulty (Ahri is skillshot-reliant, Fizz and LeBlanc have drawn out burst combos AND skillshots). For their troubles, they're rewarded with having the damage and mobility to do their job.
Rengar, Kat, and Kha'Zix might not have hard skillshots, but their kits inherently forces them to take risks.
Riven and Yasuo are kinda in the odd spot of being stronger than every other champ in the game when mastered, but they ARE hard to play.
Lee and Kat are both too strong atm though. They SHOULD be hard champions, but currently they don't really need to outplay people to snowball and carry.
As for your "easy to play" list, notice how nearly every champion on it is a vanguard or juggernaut. Tanky champs are naturally less rewarding than squishies because they don't have to play around getting hit by stray CC and getting oneshot.
I've never heard anyone say Karthus is easy; pretty sure most people think he's above average difficulty.
This was a refreshing read. +1
48983507DEL118 votesKilling Syndra with Annie is "abusing a broken, braindead champion."
Killing Annie with Syndra is "skillfully utilizing her advantages."
Ignore the fact that getting into Syndra's range without getting insta-bursted is a miracle within itself.
TequilaZombie13 votesI was just told that my Singed took no skill by a Yi player. I was also told that AD Shaco was the easier assassin to play, as well the most broken. By a Rengar.
NiceTryVi2 votesOk but to be fair singed is some next level bullshit. You can't chase him, and if you get close, he just flips you and slows while laughing at you.
TequilaZombie5 votesI mean, anyone else telling me that my champion is bullshit is fine, but a goddamn Master Yi? I mean, we both do the exact same thing in the oposite way. I run away from people to kill them, he run AT people to kill them. At least Singed gives the enemy the choice of not chasing (or standing about 200 units to the side)
Death and Doom7 votesto be fair, yi is easy to pick up but hard to master. hes not a "no skill champ"
PiVoRx11 votesRiot needs to learn a difference between broken and skillful champ, i never understood why does considered or called skillful when they are straight forward broken.
What is more difficult, outplaying as or vice versa?
Its like they dont take into account how difficult it is to make trash tier champions work when everyone plays cancers.
Gregor Gysi9 votesFirstly, I don't really see any Rioter going around and saying "champion x takes skill" and even less "easy to play".
Overall your description is slightly off and some champions are in the wrong place (the latter has been pointed out occasionally). But overall what really comes to mind is how the 2nd row is generally a lot of point and click abilities or atleast not really what you would consider skillshots (obviously not true for Karthus, but nobody would dare to call him easy to play). Garen, Morde, Nasus, Vlad (not so much after the rework), Singed, Malph, Rammus and Nautilus are all mostly point and click. Nauti has to land his hook (although he has quite a bit of CC to help him with that, Mundo cleaver is generally often used for kiting/low CD/cost so missing it isn't too bad and Cho is similiar to Nautilus. So overall they have a pretty easy time doing their part in dealing their damage. While it's surely rather easy to kite Nasus it doesn't take much to play Nasus - mechanically seen. Regardless of how things work out all you do is press W and Q on the target.
Another thing those champions have in common is that they are not really risky/punishing to play. Missed Nauti hook? Alright, whatever. Missed Mundo Q? Alright, not too bad. Got kited as Garen, whelp, go back and heal up.
The first row is mostly super squieshy (Illaoi, Vi and Heca are not and I wouldn't consider them to take a lot of skill) and get's punished when they fuck up (Ahri/LB probably not, but I wouldn't consider them particularly hard either). If Riven goes in and doesn't kill her target chances are that she dies.
Now with that being said I don't quite see what your problem is. What exactly is your point, it's not like you draw some kind of conclusion here..
Penns5 votes(most) Champs in the first row have counterplay, (most) champs in the second one dont lel.
Mordepool44 votes(most) Champs in the first row have counterplay, (most) champs in the second one dont lel.
(most) Champs in the 2nd row have counterplay, (most) champs in the 1st dont lol.
Penns3 votesI dont count "dont be anywhere near them xd" as counterplay when most of them have ranged gap closers/ranged cc/are ranged. You can outplay a Yasuo tornado or a Fizz ult/E, but good luck outplaying that Nasus Q or that Singed running into you..
TequilaZombie28 votesPlease show us how to outplay a Fizz ult without beign an overmobile champion that is in the first row.
Penns1 votes
, just running out of his E and either dodging his ult or standing behind a tank.
Now could anyone show us how to outplay a Singed? Or a Nasus? Or a Rammus? No idea how those champs have "easily avoidable damage" with literally 0 skillshots lol.
Also most of the ones in the first row are assassins... if they hit you more than once you are probably dead.. wow :o If you hit Nasus more than once he is probably still full hp.
TequilaZombie17 votesOutplaying a Singed: 5v4 while he does his thing. Outplaying a Nasus: 5v4 before he does his thing. Outplaying a Rammus: Have your tank bodyblock his roll, stay away from him if you're the ADC
GigglesO17 votesOutplaying a Singed: 5v4 while he does his thing. Outplaying a Nasus: 5v4 before he does his thing. Outplaying a Rammus: Have your tank bodyblock his roll, stay away from him if you're the ADC
Also, build this item called last wisperor, upgrade it, and get lifesteal... watch the enemy tank die even through 5 randuins and a thornmail...
Penns1 votesSo basically "stay away from them" or "dont even go near their lane" minus Rammus Q which has some situational counterplay.. And how exactly is that "easily avoidable damage"? Most champs in the first row cant even touch the ones in the second one lul
chipndip15 votesWhat's the counter-play to anything Garen does besides "Stay out of his range"?
Or Nasus?
Or Morde?
Or Vlad, save his E?
Or Malph?
And Singed is the worst since he doesn't even lane against you. He sets up a proxy for like 5 days and comes back 200 cs and 5 suicides later.
GigglesO17 votes(most) Champs in the first row have counterplay, (most) champs in the second one dont lel.
By counter play, you mean also pick a champion in the first row, against the first row, because the second row has a hard time fighting the first row...
dunder kill4 votesPick Yasuo into Rammus. Do it :^)
chipndip11 votesBecause champs with higher variance get more possible rewards and tools to succeed than no/low counter-play champs with outdated kits. Also, why is Vi in the first row?
Orangesilk14 votes Has an entirely dodgeable kit, is the very definition of counterplayable, the reward you get is a garbage-tier champion with which even the hardcore mains struggle to achieve 50% winrate.
An Undead brat1 votesThat ultimate sure is dodgeable... And I wouldn't even call the silence a skillshot, how bad would you need to be to miss it? I don't say Cho's strong, but his kit is anything but dodgeable.
Orangesilk3 votesHahaha, I'd like you to play Cho then. They nerfed the W, it's in fact quite easy to dodge now, it's not even about missing at this point, it is very inconsistent when used against anything mobile.
The ultimate is a point-and-click yeah, the only in the entire kit. It is also melee, on a champion with no gapclosers, and an extremely conditional CC. To nullify the entirety of Cho you dodge the Q then stay moderately far away (ranged AA range is fine) there you go, champion nullified to uselessness.
Orangesilk4 votesWhile I'd love to take you more seriously because few people ever bring up how awful Cho'Gath is... I can't take seriously a Dia player who believes Illaoi has mobility and struggles against her.
GigglesO6 votesWhile I'd love to take you more seriously because few people ever bring up how awful Cho'Gath is... I can't take seriously a Dia player who believes Illaoi has mobility and struggles against her.
Leap of Faith summons a Prophet of an Elder God.png Tentacle for every enemy champion and Test of Spirit.png Spirit hit, which lasts for 8 seconds, during which Harsh Lesson.png Harsh Lesson's base cooldown is also reduced to 2 seconds.
Mobility check
Kit that invalidates immobile champs, check
HAs high damage that can kill you quickly, check...
Orangesilk7 votesIt's a 225 unit dash, for fucks sake. One of those every 2 seconds is like moving 112 per second, this barely makes it as a 30% movement speed increase, not accounting for the fact that it has an ANIMATION so its actually less of a mobility boost, specially considering it is an empowered auto attack, on a champion with the lowest base attack speed in the game, so the attack animation is SLOW AS HELL.
Not only that, but it's TARGETED ONLY, which means that if you're away from her 300 unit range (This is a very short range, almost half of Lucians auto attack range) she is NOT DASHING ANYMORE.
Illaoi is not a mobile champion, her 'quick' damage relies on people piling around her and not moving away from her ult or ccing her, and her kit, while easier to deal with for mobile champions, can always be invalidated by RIGHT CLICKING THE GROUND.
Jet Sett3 votesHec and Lee require decent amounts of skill to pull things off, or at least they would if damage wasn't so absurd right now.
EDIT: got downvoted but someone reiterating my point gets upvoted, what is the standing here?
GrReaper9610 votesExpectation: Imma W + R + Q + Q + aa + E + aa + E + aa + Q + aa + Q + aa....... Reality: Imaa W + R + Q + Q... oh wait they dead already
Stand in my X1 voteswell her w is kinda mobility
