If you're going to halve the CD of Tumble during Final Hour, you'll need to nerf her stealth a bit

Bârd··17 votes·9,498 views

For a moment, lets forget that Tumble provides any kind of damage and just think of its mobility. The DPS increase from this buff might be a problem but it's not the problem I'm talking about here.

It's a 300 range dash with a 2 second CD after you proc its attack and, if your ult is active, it provides a 1 second stealth on cast.

A 1 second stealth will hide the direction Vayne tumbles in as well as where she walks for the remaining ~0.8 seconds. This means that when she presses Q during her ult with the intent to juke your ass, she could "reappear" anywhere within a ~600 radius of where she pressed Q.

If she has to wait 2 seconds after getting back in range of somebody before she can stealth again, I can justify this power.

It's a great playmaking tool, but that 2 window is enough of an opportunity for a team to react, pounce on her, scream her name a few times, and kill her.

A 1 second window, however, is not enough for me to justify that level of power. If you go through with it, the stealth should do little more than hide the direction she tumbled in. Reducing the stealth duration from 1.0 > 0.6 would be enough.

Honestly I feel this is the wrong way to buff Vayne. If you want her to be stronger, give her ult some of its AD back (or, because you're Riot and hate going back on a decision even if you really want to, give it an AS steroid).

That said, if you're going to do this you should at least get it right the first time around instead of leaving it broken for two patches before nerfing the shit out of Vayne.

Also, I know Vayne doesn't really buy any CDR, but we all know somebody in our solo queue games is gonna go tank Vayne top with Triforce/Frozen Heart solely to experience 0.55 second CD's on Tumble. This is a reality I want to avoid.

29 Comments

Neptunia xoxo18 votes

Or we could not buff this champion.

Dynikus9 votes

Vayne wouldn't even need to build tanky for cdr. Whatever combination of item 3156 item 3812 item 3071 item 3508 or transendence would get her to a .6s cd tumble. .55 if you go klepto vayne. This is an incredibly stupid change that I really hope doesn't make it to live.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne wouldn't even need to build tanky for cdr. Whatever combination of item 3156 item 3812 item 3071 item 3508 or transendence would get her to a .6s cd tumble. .55 if you go klepto vayne. This is an incredibly stupid change that I really hope doesn't make it to live.

It’s an adc buff it won’t actually make it. The last time something anywhere near this was attempted was making jinx w be able to crit. (Kinda wish they did let that through)

Daddy Ants5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ok9eTAYj,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-10T10:13:12.689+0000)

It’s an adc buff it won’t actually make it. The last time something anywhere near this was attempted was making jinx w be able to crit. (Kinda wish they did let that through)

https://www.reddit.com/r/vaynemains/comments/a46ixw/vayne_buff_in_the_pbe/

[–]AzuBK 35 points 2 days ago

Thought you guys might enjoy this one. This means about 50% stealth uptime (1 second stealthed, ~1 second unstealthed). We really do plan to ship this exact change in 9.1. Both the balance team and playtest team are aligned that, while it looks a bit wild, this is unlikely to move winrate too much despite creating some very powerful moments. If it ends up being too much, it's likely we'll scale it down by ult rank (like 20/35/50%, for instance), since the goal is less "Vayne wins every level 6 all-in" and more "Vayne can pop off like none other later in the game if she's not bursted out."

Happy (night) hunting.

3TWarrior4 votes

they really don't play their game, do they?

Daddy Ants4 votes

It's a 300 unit roll.

Hardly super high ranged.

Mordepool2 votes

{quoted}

It's a 300 unit roll.

Hardly super high ranged.

Its thematically appropiate, tumbling stealthily doesnt offer you the same Range as when you are not trying to conceal your movement.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

It's still enough to put you out of a melees range, but Riot doesn't consider melees when they balance their game.

Sire Hippington2 votes

CDR on Vayne is rather easy to get though, trinity is rather underated on her, Duskblade might be strong with those changes, and DD is pretty broken since the last changes as it heals off her true-damage aswell.

Daddy Ants2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ok9eTAYj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-12-10T14:11:50.470+0000)

CDR on Vayne is rather easy to get though, trinity is rather underated on her, Duskblade might be strong with those changes, and DD is pretty broken since the last changes as it heals off her true-damage aswell.

Trinity is too expensive for Vayne to reliably build.

Besteal1 votes

Vayne stealth isn't long enough for Duskblade

Bârd7 votes

She can proc it. Her stealth is up to 1 second, which is the requirement.

The issue is that staying stealthed for the full duration means she's not doing any damage for that duration, meaning you lose out on an attack or two in that time, losing damage overall.

Besteal1 votes

mb, thought the requirement was 1.5 seconds.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

Vayne stealth isn't long enough for Duskblade

Yes it is, but if she stays in stealth for the whole 1 second she's losing valuable damage uptime.

Vayne's Q is a DPS loss to use once Vayne reaches like 1.6 - 1.8 Attack Speed at which point it becomes a utility spell for repositioning.

Before anyone goes "Vayne main spotted."

Yes I'm a Vayne Main, I have 1.1 million mastery on her.

Honestly I'm hoping AzuBK makes it scale with ult rank. 20 / 35 / 50% at 6 / 11 / 16

Daddy Ants2 votes

You lot seem to forget one thing.

Vayne's Q becomes a DPS loss once a certain attack speed threshold is hit (like 1.8)

Mordepool3 votes

{quoted}

You lot seem to forget one thing.

Vayne's Q becomes a DPS loss once a certain attack speed threshold is hit (like 1.8)

When you want to deal insane amounts of damage and can't be targetted back. There is a fucking Problem,

They want to do this sure fine, just proves there are idiots at Riot. Nerf the fuck out of the Ult duration so you can Wait it out since There is no other Counterplay offered once Vayne hits the R button.

Also nerf the range on her Roll.during the ult

Bârd5 votes

You seem to forget one thing.

For a moment, lets forget that Tumble provides any kind of damage and just think of its mobility. The DPS increase from this buff might be a problem but it's not the problem I'm talking about here.

I don't care about how this increases her damage.

Not here, anyway.

I'm solely talking about how this change makes her too elusive.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

But it already affords insane safety, safety which is getting a huge buff.

mack91121 votes

Its pre season , a time for riot to try new things ... and they do then the community flips shit

vgamedude4 votes

{quoted}

Its pre season , a time for riot to try new things ... and they do then the community flips shit

buffing adcs isnt a new thing for riot

Velzard of Koz1 votes

If they wanna try new things they could try balance the game properly... jkjk

3TWarrior3 votes

new things is one thing, change for the sake of change without considering what the consequences are is another

mack91121 votes

How can you decipher one from another.

3TWarrior1 votes

by accepting feedback as one method. Thinking outside of the box is another

I made a simple example with an easily problematic setup to compare it to when people point out problems

for example, if fiddlesticks is not doing well, what if riot Buffed his base AD by 100. It has nothing to do with his playstyle, so is it safe? No, fiddlesticks would quickly be adapted into a build that featured his new, insane AD even though none of his abilities feature AD ratios

The vayne change has been pointed out as problematic, especially if her build adapts for burst damage instead of critical

LordGeovanni1 votes

This wasnt a good buff on Nasus why give it to vayne with her bs Max hp true damage

Śhunpo1 votes

Ah, looks like there's a new Irelia-tier permaban for ADCs now. Sweet.

saltran2 votes

Boards and overreacting abot an adc buff, name a iconic duo.

Śhunpo1 votes

This is more than a simple ADC buff. Vayne is my 2nd most played champion so I can tell you right now this is a buff which fundamentally breaks a very important aspect in regards to counterplaying her. The fact that her Tumble has a 2 second cooldown (without CDR) gives her opponents enough time to respond to her aggression, if they can. This change completely removes this and turns a fight against Vayne into a guessing game where if you get a lucky guess she dies, and if you don't you die. There's nothing fun about that.

Now, since I'd like for Vayne to remain as a healthy champion (at least somewhat) I am strongly in opposition of letting this change hit live servers.

CppL1 votes

I guess they want to make another cancer to play against...

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