Champions That Need VGUs

Frosted Tips·Nov 15, 2018·14 votes·8,691 views

Obviously this is opinionated. They are in order.

Full VGU:

Dr. Mundo
Shaco
Tryndamere
Amumu
Fiddlesticks
Volibear
Vi
Pantheon
Nocturne
Master Yi
Karthus
Udyr
Illaoi - this one was tuff between full and minor, but I think to keep her tactical mechanic the rest of her kit needs an extreme overhaul.

Minor VGU:

Diana and Leona
Malphite
Hecarim
Nasus
Nautilus
Rek'Sai
Shyvana
Wukong
Renekton
Skarner
Quinn
Ryze
Shen
Zilean

Let me know yours or tell me I'm wrong. I would love to have a good discussion. Excluded Morde because he is supposed to get one in 2019.

101 Comments

Dr DogNov 15, 20186 votes

id bumb up malphite, his entire kit is dated as hell, hsi ult is literally his only saving grace

Noor SakataNov 15, 20186 votes

Why Vi..

Frosted TipsNov 15, 20183 votes

She does one thing. She goes all in and if she doesnt kill someone she is useless. She has to build too squishy to be a threat and she doesnt do enough cc to build tankier. So right now she is either an assassin or useless.

Noor SakataNov 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

She does one thing. She goes all in and if she doesnt kill someone she is useless. She has to build too squishy to be a threat and she doesnt do enough cc to build tankier. So right now she is either an assassin or useless.

that's not true .. all you just need is Dark Harvest , Tri force , Sterak , She power spikes at Tri force , she is pretty good after buying it , the problem she suffers from is that she needs that item , she has a bad early and any jungler can invade her , she might be able to duel them but she needs to hit that Q and she needs Red buff in early otherwise , she is pretty strong , and when she is ahead , she is more hellish than a Yasuo , trust me !

Frosted TipsNov 15, 20182 votes

You didn't disprove anything I said.

aNewMoonIsRisingNov 15, 20185 votes

I am glad you added Diana and Leona. Tired of people saying that they are fine.

Frosted TipsNov 15, 20184 votes

They don't need alot, but they need a touch up.

Diana is supposed to be this bruiser and she literally can only build full assassin. Because of this build her E is practically useless even though it is actually an amazing ability. Moonfall is like Oriana Ultimate without damage. So either way Riot decides to balance Diana she needs a change. If assassin she needs a new E and if AP bruiser(I hope) she needs adjustments across the board. Also not being a threat in any capacity until level 6 is pretty terrible.

Leona is just so one dimensional. She can do one thing and that is pretty much it. Land E and blow your load.

aNewMoonIsRisingNov 15, 20183 votes

{quoted}

They don't need alot, but they need a touch up.

Diana is supposed to be this bruiser and she literally can only build full assassin. Because of this build her E is practically useless even though it is actually an amazing ability. Moonfall is like Oriana Ultimate without damage. So either way Riot decides to balance Diana she needs a change. If assassin she needs a new E and if AP bruiser(I hope) she needs adjustments across the board. Also not being a threat in any capacity until level 6 is pretty terrible.

Leona is just so one dimensional. She can do one thing and that is pretty much it. Land E and blow your load.

I agree with these. Also I think their base models could use an update like they did with Ezreal.

Frosted TipsNov 15, 20182 votes

Yeah I agree they both need some visuals done. My list is mainly gameplay first and a nice visual update along side with it. Leona definitely needs one bad while I think Diana still looks pretty decent just needs minor visual update.

EvenNov 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I am glad you added Diana and Leona. Tired of people saying that they are fine.

I don't think they need much visual changes at all. Besides VFX and maybe textures/animations. Diana is definitely more in need of a gameplay update.

chipndip1Nov 15, 20184 votes

Why would Diana only need minor changes?

WoodenCreatureNov 15, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Why would Diana only need minor changes?

Ye she will either 1shot everyone or be actually useless theres no inbetween with diana which is sad.

SSW TalonNov 15, 20184 votes

Shaco Diana Pantheon Tryndamere Fiddlesticks MonkeyKing Malphite Mordekaiser DrMundo Volibear Azir Kalista need major work, Wu and Diana need to either be made into full-on assassins or to be made into bruisers. Riot hate Azir, they won't let him be anything close to meta in regular play, he needs a lot of work done to him at some stage. Kalista is in the same boat as Azir.

Nocturne Leona Nasus MasterYi } Sona Udyr need minor work, these champs could just use having their thematic fully-realised or be made slightly less binary, however they should still remain fairly straight forward as good entry-level champs (in the case of Sona, Nasus and to some extent, Yi)

not sure where Skarner Chogath Amumu Hecarim sit but I can respect that Riot should probably give these guys some love sooner or later.

Ahri Riven Talon Leblanc and a few others could simply do with a visual update w/ no gameplay changes because these champs look dated as fuck even if their kits are acceptable/good.

Frosted TipsNov 15, 20183 votes

Shaco, Pantcheon, Tryndamere, Fiddlesticks, Morde(already hinted at getting one in 2019 so that is why I didnt include him), Dr. Mundo, and Volibear I agree with 100% need full VGUs.

I think Diana could receive a small update and turn out well. She has potential in her kit and she is meant to be a bruiser and her kit could work that way with tweaks and the new AP bruiser items they are working on.

Wukong could go either way, but idk up to Riot on that one.

Malphite could do fine I think with a delay nerf to his Ultimate and then a balance change in numbers in the rest of his kit.

I didnt include Azir of Kalista because they were too new IMO and others deserved attention first.

Nocturne, Master Yi, Vi, and Udyr have some major flaws that I do not see a minor fix to help much. They will need more work done to them. They can still be simple, but they have large glaring kitwode balance issues.

Ahri needs a new W and everyone knows that.

SSW TalonNov 17, 20181 votes

Ahri's W is a bit better now than it was before.

It doesn't really matter how new Azir and Kalista are, their designs are extremely oppressive.

Yi is fine, he functions exactly how he has to, Nocturne you have a point he might need bigger changes, Vi could fairly easily be fixed with more minor changes, Udyr man I have no idea I just said minor because I dunno what Riot are meant to do with him at this point

Diana needs major work for similar reasons to why say a Nocturne might, it's not that they don't function it's that their gameplay is extremely one-way with very little in the ways of "counterplay", Wukong is in a similar boat his design is from a simpler, more archaic time.

Malphite's kit does not hold up well anymore.

Riot are flip-flopping on Shaco, the rest I am aware are slated for a vgu but it doesn't make me any less displeased when I have to deal with one of those design-messes so I always call them out

Critmaster GarenNov 15, 20183 votes

i think illaoi isnt hard to do.

step 1: make her tentacles not targetable from outside direct vision anymore.

if the enemy doesnt have direct vision on the tentacles, the red oracles shadows or simply having them visible without being targetable is enough to communicate that theyre around.

back when riot changed the tentacles to not be hidden in bushes anymore, their reasoning was that it was too hard to gage illaois power without knowing where her tentacles are. but this never justified making them also targetable by attacks from outside vision.

that means no more attacking tentacles from outside of bushes. this means ranged champions have to walk up to them just as melee champions to to take them out. or they have to sacrifice a ward.

this would close the gap in power between ranged and melee matchups against her, and ranged champions wouldnt have a disproportionate advantage.

step 2: instead of her passive having a cooldown when a tentacle can be placed, the cooldown is on the wall instead, similar to how talons e puts walls on cooldown.

this would accomplish two things. for one, she doesnt have to wait for 30 seconds to be able to put up tentacles whenever she moves around the map between lanes into a new area during the teamfight phase. she could just immediately set up a couple tentacles around walls that are nearby since they will all be off cooldown.

secondly, when laning against illaoi youre a bit more rewarded for removing single tentacles. she cant just immediately replace them on the spot youve just taken one out, because she happened to sit on the cooldown, and it doesnt feel like youre pissing against the wind at times. it just makes it generally a bit better to play around the tentacles. you remove one, and the wall is now on a 20 to 10 second cooldown and you created an opening to move up and grab a couple cs or trade into her.

Mr Bob BobersonNov 15, 20183 votes

I think about half of the second list are fine, some could use some touch ups Also what about Riven? Her model is definitely, not fantastic

Frosted TipsNov 15, 20181 votes

Honestly forgot about Riven. I was literally taking to my friends about her yesterday too. She definitely needs some change, but I would hate to take a champion away from such a dedicated fan base. To play Riven at a high level you pretty much have to play only her, so her fans would be super upset by any change other than visual.

What are some of the champions you agree or disagree with on the second list I would love to let you know what my reasons are.

Mr Bob BobersonNov 16, 20181 votes

I feel like Vi, Notcturne, Fiddles, Karthus,Shaco, and Volibear are fine for the most part, I think they could only use a few touch ups, but nothing too major of course i haven't seen every model or inspected them closely, I think Illaoi is perfectly fine though Basically I think almost every champ before 2013 (Using Yasuo and other champs released during that time and after as a reference) could use touch ups, some even full VGUs Like for instance, I think Zed could use some touch ups, but Talon on the other hand could use a full VGU And champions after 2013 could probably use some touch ups regarding clipping issues and all

But i'd like to see Riven get a full VGU because i really enjoy Riven as a champion and her model is really outdated The effects, especially on her E , it is such an eye sore

I'm mostly talking about purely visial things by the way, Forgot to clarify when I mentioned Riven Because their kits is going to be a whole different long comment

Frosted TipsNov 16, 20181 votes

I feel like Vi, Notcturne, Fiddles, Karthus,Shaco, and Volibear are fine for the most part, I think they could only use a few touch ups, but nothing too major

What does Vi off that Camille does not? Vi is supposed to be a fighter yet she has to one shot people like an assassin or she is useless, because he cooldowns are terribly long. Her W is just 2 passives.

Fiddlesticks needs a New Q and E and some work done on his W. This would give him an entirely new play style.

Karthus is very dated and would probably do best with a full VGU, but could just get a small VGU

Shaco is abysmal to play and to play against. He needs a complete overhaul.

Volibear got a nice bandaid fix, but that is all it was. Just running at people is not good gameplay.

Basically I think almost every champ before 2013 (Using Yasuo and other champs released during that time and after as a reference) could use touch ups, some even full VGUs Like for instance, I think Zed could use some touch ups, but Talon on the other hand could use a full VGU And champions after 2013 could probably use some touch ups regarding clipping issues and all

Talon is newer than Zed. Talon got a VGU already with the Assassin update. So your point is invalid. Also old does not mean bad and new does not mean good.

But i'd like to see Riven get a full VGU because i really enjoy Riven as a champion and her model is really outdated The effects, especially on her E , it is such an eye sore

I think Riven could get a full VU, but her fans would hate a full VGU. She has an extremely dedicated player base.

I'm mostly talking about purely visial things by the way, Forgot to clarify when I mentioned Riven Because their kits is going to be a whole different long comment

Lastly, VGU means gameplay and visuals, while VU would be just visuals.

Mr Bob BobersonNov 16, 20181 votes

I usually see people say rework instead of VGU so i got confused I was speaking about visual updates the entire time

But if we're talking about visual and gameplay updates, I feel like some in the some in the full VGU list could just use some tweaks, but there isn't a single champ on the list that I think shouldn't be there

And I still stand for the full Riven VU, and maybe, just maybe a minor tweak to her kit, Maybe one ability

Frosted TipsNov 16, 20181 votes

Someone told me that Riot has stopped doing pure VUs so more than likely if Riven got one she would have a small gameplay update as well.

Mr Bob BobersonNov 17, 20181 votes

It could be like Ezreal's where they only change on ability

Frosted TipsNov 17, 20181 votes

The biggest issue I see is that her abilities are all so crucial to all of her combos and changing any of them would severely change her entire kit.

Mr Bob BobersonNov 17, 20181 votes

Personally I don't think a change to her passive would be that big of a change to her entire kit

Frosted TipsNov 17, 20181 votes

I think it is very essential to her and that if you remove that you have to buff all of her damage. It is also what causes her to have to weave basic attacks in. I don't think people want to see Riven just one combo you without basics.

OleandervineNov 15, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Obviously this is opinionated. They are in order.

Full VGU:

Dr. Mundo

Shaco

Tryndamere

Amumu

Fiddlesticks

Volibear

Yes

Vi

Uhm, No. Vi isn't that old, and her kit isn't even remotely close to being outdated or unhealthy for the game. She still looks great visually and sounds good. Why the hell would they VGU a perfectly fine champions?

Pantheon

Nocturne

Master Yi

Yes

Karthus

No. Karthus got a VU in 2013. He's updated visually, vocally, and his kit's been minorly tweaked recently. He could maybe use some extra tweaking to make him competitive, but no to a VGU.

Udyr

Yes

Illaoi - this one was tuff between full and minor, but I think to keep her tactical mechanic the rest of her kit needs an extreme overhaul.

No. Illaoi is only like 3 years old, and her kit has already been changed to stabilize her across all ELOs. She is also a hell no to a VGU. You may not like her, but she's beatable.

Minor VGU:

Diana and Leona

Yes

Malphite

No. Malphite looks hideous and his kit has multiple clunky and lacking aspects to it. He needs a considerable overhaul.

Hecarim

Not immediately. He's not that bad off, but his kit needs some modernization.

Nasus

No. Nasus got a VU in 2012. He's mostly modernized, and doesn't need to have a minor VGU.

Nautilus

Another not immediately. Also his kit doesn't need any touching, it's perfectly functional and up to modern standards.

Rek'Sai

No. She's like 2 years old, and her kit was already updated.

Shyvana

Yes

Wukong

Yes

Renekton

No. He got a texture update in 2014, and his kit was updated with it. He doesn't need further work.

Skarner

Yes

Quinn

In terms of gameplay, she's functional, but Riot has her on their Tier 1 VGU list because her gameplay doesn't represent their vision for her.

Ryze

No. His kit needs further tweaking.

Shen

No.

Zilean

Yes

You picked champions who are modernized or have already have extensive work done to them. They're not going to rework or VGU champions that are already in stable places.

Frosted TipsNov 15, 20181 votes

This is about who needs work done. A champion kit being newer does not make it inherently better. Some of the more recently updated champions like Shaco which you agreed with needs a full VGU even though he was updated in the Assassin Update. Vi is this fighter that is supposed to get into the thick of things yet she has to build full damage to try to assassinate 1 target. If she can not do so she is utterly useless. She does not offer enough CC or take enough hits when building tank to justify building tankier unless you are unable to one shot and then you are an ult bot.

Illaoi is not about how hard she is to face which she isn't. It is that she does not fit any role and can not do any job well enough. She needs a way to kill turrets faster to be a scary split push champion or she needs better ways to deal consistent damage in teamfights.

Malphite I believe could be fixed with minor changes. Like a larger delay on his ultimate to free up more power to be added to the rest of his kit. Maybe a new Q and the just number changes and scaling changes after that. But he could aslo just get a full VGU.

Hecarim is one of the worst feast or famine champions in the game. He should get an update soon because he has been relatively neglected.

Having to build a grevious wounds item and qss to fight Nasus is not ok. He needs a new passive, and either a new E or a new W. 2012 was almost 7 years ago.

Rek' Sai is one of Riots greatest failed releases up there with Ivern. She needs tremor sense removed or a complete overhaul. That champion can't be balanced with free information early and a super strong early game kit. It is as oppressive as Nidalee in her prime.

Renekton needs some kit modernization. He is one of the most binary champions left.

Since when is Quinn a top tier VGU champion? When didRiot say this? All champions are functional, that is not my issue with any champion. It is how they interact with the current champion roster and the game in general. Quinn just needs some way to feel better to play as and against since no one likes facing her she is in this state that also isn't much fun to play anymore.

How to start fixing Ryze: Remove the point and click, ranged, hard CC, that is on a basic ability. Then fix from there.

Also being in a stable place does not mean it is healthy.

Iota ThetaNov 16, 20181 votes

Illaoi is not about how hard she is to face which she isn't. It is that she does not fit any role and can not do any job well enough. She needs a way to kill turrets faster to be a scary split push champion or she needs better ways to deal consistent damage in teamfights.

Illaoi is a strong “you better think twice about that engage” champ, which also makes her effective in split pushing. She takes towers as well as most juggernauts, and she can handle a good number of opponents that might try to stop her. Her tentacles need some QoL, like a bit different way to set them up cause her passive can either destroy her or help her, and they need to not be visible in fog when attacking in a spot with no vision. In bushes I can understand, but if she’s in the jungle and you can’t see her, you shouldn’t be able to see her tentacle slams.

Malphite I believe could be fixed with minor changes. Like a larger delay on his ultimate to free up more power to be added to the rest of his kit. Maybe a new Q and the just number changes and scaling changes after that. But he could aslo just get a full VGU.

That won’t help Malphite much. He needs much more extensive work. For someone who’s supposed to be more of an anti-AD champ, he doesn’t always seem to feel that way outside of his W passive. His ultimate and Q spam tend to be his most complained about skills though, and ult is his only hard CC and no way to refresh defenses in combat for an extra spike of tank, and his AP build is just too much at times.

Frosted TipsNov 16, 20181 votes

She takes towers as well as most juggernauts

Ok but the rest of the juggernauts have more CC and teamfight potential than her.

You undervalue Malphite E against champions. That attack speed slow is brutal. Also I think lowering Malphite's damage on Q and giving it a stronger slow would help him, but overall I think a New Q would do him enough.

Iota ThetaNov 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ok but the rest of the juggernauts have more CC and teamfight potential than her.

She also has a bit more range on those tentacles that other juggernauts. Depending on what you’re teamfight intent is. She’s great in disengage/counterengage comps because the enemies come to her.

You undervalue Malphite E against champions. That attack speed slow is brutal. Also I think lowering Malphite's damage on Q and giving it a stronger slow would help him, but overall I think a New Q would do him enough.

It’s really only useful on auto attacks..which is brutal on ADCs, but beyond that..casters don’t really care, tanks don’t care. He still doesn’t quite fulfill the anti-AD as much as he possibly could. His armor bonus is the main thing, and the cripple for autoattackers. Everything else feels separate. His model and lore desperately need updating though alongside general gameplay, which puts him more in VGU territory. As said in another thread, he’s very meta dependent and touching him even a tiny bit outside cause cause large issues when that rolls around

Daddy AntsNov 15, 20182 votes

Dr. Mundo - Yes, Full VGU needed Shaco - Big changes needed, maybe even a full VGU. Tryndamere - Yes, Full VGU needed Amumu - Yes , Full VGU needed Fiddlesticks - Yes , Full VGU needed Volibear - Yes , Full VGU needed Vi - No Pantheon - Yes, Full VGU needed Nocturne - Yes, Full VGU needed Master Yi - Minor changes. Karthus - Yes, Full VGU needed Udyr - Yes, Full VGU needed Illaoi - Eh, not really

Minor VGU:

Diana and Leona - Diana needs to be less of a pre rework Akali... aka hit 6 and 1 shot Malphite - He needs a full VGU. Hecarim - I dunno about this one Nasus - AFK Farming and 1 hit a squishy late game is not healthy Nautilus - Needs to be balanced as either a Support, Top or Jungle. He is obviously unable to be balanced in multiple roles. Rek'Sai - Minor changes Shyvana - Minor changes Wukong - Full VGU needed Renekton - Minor changes Skarner - Full VGU needed Quinn - Rework her into a bot lane crit marksman. Ryze - Full VGU needed. He warps pro play when he's the slightest bit strong. Shen - Needs big changes. He warps pro play when he's strong Zilean - I think he's fine.

Daddy ReTaricNov 15, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Dr. Mundo - Yes, Full VGU needed Shaco - Big changes needed, maybe even a full VGU. Tryndamere - Yes, Full VGU needed Amumu - Yes , Full VGU needed Fiddlesticks - Yes , Full VGU needed Volibear - Yes , Full VGU needed Vi - No Pantheon - Yes, Full VGU needed Nocturne - Yes, Full VGU needed Master Yi - Minor changes. Karthus - Yes, Full VGU needed Udyr - Yes, Full VGU needed Illaoi - Eh, not really

Minor VGU:

Diana and Leona - Diana needs to be less of a pre rework Akali... aka hit 6 and 1 shot Malphite - He needs a full VGU. Hecarim - I dunno about this one Nasus - AFK Farming and 1 hit a squishy late game is not healthy Nautilus - Needs to be balanced as either a Support, Top or Jungle. He is obviously unable to be balanced in multiple roles. Rek'Sai - Minor changes Shyvana - Minor changes Wukong - Full VGU needed Renekton - Minor changes Skarner - Full VGU needed Quinn - Rework her into a bot lane crit marksman. Ryze - Full VGU needed. He warps pro play when he's the slightest bit strong. Shen - Needs big changes. He warps pro play when he's strong Zilean - I think he's fine.

Quinn into a bot lane marskman? Sorry but no. Nobody in Quinn mains want her to be pigeon holed into a marskman.

SukishooNov 15, 20182 votes

Full VGU:

Dr. Mundo - yes Shaco - yes Tryndamere - yes Amumu - yes Fiddlesticks - yes Volibear - yes Vi - lolno Pantheon - yes Nocturne - yes Master Yi - not even Karthus - no way Udyr - yes Illao - nope

Minor VGU Diana and Leona - Diana needs more than Leo. Leona just needs a VU Malphite - Needs Full VGU Hecarim - no Nasus - no Nautilus - needs Full VGU Rek'Sai - no Shyvana - no Wukong - Needs Full VGU Renekton - no Skarner - needs Full VGU Quinn - yes Ryze - needs tweaks Shen - no Zilean - no

Daddy ReTaricNov 15, 20182 votes

Quinn doesn't require a lot of attention. Her R is the biggest flaw as it could be so much more but I love to be arround to make plays all arround the map so I live with it. Mordekaiser should be number 1, he have so many bugs and doesn't work well in the game we play in today.

Daddy ReTaricNov 15, 20182 votes

You should include Singed. His kit is outdated.

Votable JesterNov 15, 20181 votes

Teemo needs a full VGU I think.

I'd also like Morgana to get one so she's a little less binary (especially mid).

MaisanaiNov 15, 20181 votes

they want morg as a support mainly, and they are only going to do minor updates to her in the soon to be released update. I think they said the only abilities that they really want to look at changing are passive and w.

Votable JesterNov 15, 20182 votes

I'm fine with Morg being a support mainly. I just think right now her kit (outside her shield) is incredibly binary.

I do hope they don't make her only capable of supporting though. Sometimes it's fun to have more of a utility mid laner.

MaisanaiNov 15, 20181 votes

if they changed her w completely and did something with her ult so that you don't have to flash in and/or use zh so you don't die, I would be fine with that. Like I said though, I'm pretty sure they said the only things they will be looking at will be her passive and w, which do both need some attention. her e and q are both great though.

BjørnetjenestenNov 15, 20181 votes

Trynda, Amumu & Vi are completely fine champions.

Also Illaoi??? She is from 2015, her kit,lore and design are all good.

What the fuck are you talking about, this list is bullshit.

Also leave Volibear alone.

BârdNov 15, 20182 votes

Trynd is one of the most binary champions in the game. Either your champion has disengage and he's trivial or you don't and he's borderline unstoppable.

Amumu is outdated as hell. Speaking as somebody who loves playing Amumu, he needs modernization at the very least.

Vi is pretty much just a worse version of Camille at this point. She needs more mechanics/combo potential to give her something to do after she blows her load. Tacking on a movement speed boost for champion W procs seems like a good place to start IMO, but she might need more than that.

Illaoi is a pubstomper. Being a recent design doesn't necessarily make her a good one.

Volibear is outdated as hell. The E change was nice and made that spell into something genuinely useful, but that doesn't help how every other ability he has is also outdated.

BjørnetjenestenNov 15, 20181 votes

You are right, lets throw more true damage, 7 dashes, AA resets, 4 knockups and % max hp dmg on every single champion... this is riots philosophy of modernization and all it has done is cut the games lifetime in ½. Its absolute cancer cause every new VGU and champion gets more complex and in trying to keep the game "exciting" they are breaking fundamental rules of the game.

Why not allow some binary and simple champions? Why cant illaoi be a pubstomper? she is easy to counter, but playing her correctly in the right matchups can be very rewarding. I guess Vi could use some help, but does she really need a full VGU??? her theme and art are completely fine IMO.

BârdNov 15, 20181 votes

Simple champions are fine. The problem is when those champions are outdated and have a low enough skill ceiling that they either can't deal with newer picks or can't be justified to be picked over newer picks.

Binary champions are fine if it's something like Blitz (Land Q and you're a god, miss and you're useless). The problem comes with champions like Trynd. If you can open a gap after his W and first E, he can't hit you to reset his E CD, so he can't kill you and is useless. If you can't do that, he'll just run you down with little you can do about it.

Illaoi being a pubstomper is fine. Her issue is that's all she does. Illaoi has a respectable skill ceiling, but even if she plays well the honess is on her opponent as to whether or not they win the lane. If they understand the matchup and execute properly, Illaoi loses. If they run in dick first with their jungler into an Illaoi ult, Illaoi crushes.

Vi needs more tools for skill expression and early game dueling. She doesn't need a full on VGU. I'd say her aesthetics are fine. I'd mostly like to see them touch up her VO (same deal as most champions from the early seasons). Her gameplay needs adjustment on the same scale as Singed.

LyasoNov 16, 20181 votes

The next VGUs after Kayle&Morgana are going to be Mordekaiser Pantheon Volibear Nocturne Mark my words.

Frosted TipsNov 16, 20181 votes

That is fine they all need it.

Meep ManNov 16, 20181 votes

I'd disagree with Karthus and Vi a ton for major VGUs. Karthus really doesn't need much at all, and Vi needs NOTHING. I'd actually argue Malphite needs a major VGU more than Karthus or Vi.

My top six champions based on my own priority would be:

(literally busted kit that is really useless and frustrating at the same time, his entire budget is in his Q and R, somehow manages to be frustrating for almost every party involved unless the match 100% goes his way)
(literally is the "Supreme Dark Lord/One True Evil" archetype in League and lives up to his title... not at all... also still pretty damn buggy... and pizza feet... at the very least feels functional at times)
(new lore makes his current kit feel stupidly lackluster, and his kit is really statchecky, which him either getting kited and cc'd forever or absolutely mauling your face off while building almost full tank)
(also falls flat on his face as far as potential for the theme goes, and his kit is so janky and potentially unfun that he has been made into a bit of a joke, even if some people somehow make use of his kit)
(one of, if not the most unfun champions to play against when they are meta... also is a god of war and the only god-like thing he does is his ult...)
(similar to many others on this list, he has so much potential, but ends up feeling bland and wasted... his visuals and stuff could be so much cooler as well)

Frosted TipsNov 16, 20181 votes

Vi needs it bad. Camille just does her job better in every way. Vi is required to build practically full damage and if she doesn't one shot she is useless because she does instantly herself and has long cooldowns. Vi does not fit her fantasy at all. She is out dated and needs a full VGU. Karthus is much more arguable for just a small VGU.

Meep ManNov 17, 20181 votes

That's less an issue with Vi than Camille. Vi still does her job plenty well and in an at least acceptably healthy fashion. Vi can be made to have her own niche with number changes and a minor rework at most. I'd say focusing Vi more around what she currently has Camille beat with (Crowd Control) would be a good idea.

Sergeant HbA1cNov 30, 20181 votes

I wish they would fix Fiddlesticks' spaghetti code for his Dark Wind (E). From what I've witnessed, it doesn't check for visibility before bouncing to a nearby champion after it lands on a target.

That, and it's waaaaaaaaay to easy to harass with it. The fact that you need to counter him at the pick/ban stage furthers this point. A champion's output shouldn't be so easily determined by whether or not they were counter picked...