last hit? Why?

Plasma Servant·May 6, 2015·5 votes·2,522 views

It is a pain when people on your own team ks all the time. And how do they get away with it? By waiting until the enemy is just about dead, and then jump in with a high burst and kill the enemy.

I believe that behavior is toxic to the game. I don't know why Rivens always seem to want to roam into my lane, and take the kills, but it stinks. The same is true for a lot of assassins.

It doesn't have to be that way ... just give the kill to the champion that did the most damage, not the one that got an auto attack at the last second (or a skill shot, or anything else). Make ks'ing impossible because you don't get the kill unless you've done the damage. Toxicity of assassins removed. They aren't going to be interested in playing for themselves any more, but just playing for the team.

60 Comments

Commit SudokuMay 6, 201519 votes

uhhh but it isnt toxic to the game K/D/A doesnt matter winning and losing matters

ksing are things bronze/new players complain about

complaining about ksing means you really dont understand how the game is played tbh

not to mention the fact you aren't even playing in a competitive environment since you only play against bots, you really shouldn't care

Red FrostravenMay 6, 20152 votes

The last hitting of everything bothers me. THAT causes the last hit to make the game EXACTLY like a first freaking person shooter.

I can't help my team without defensive OR offensive items; Characters don't scale enough to be of any use without items.

Commit SudokuMay 6, 20152 votes

except killing 17 minions is the same as a kill sooo how about you get better at that minions are the best income for gold and its not like you get no gold for assist

Plasma ServantMay 7, 20151 votes

and you still haven't answered the question, or the person's complaint ... last hitting everything makes it exactly like a FPS. So do you really think the people that ks champions won't do everything they can to make sure they last hit every minion they can? Especially annoying is an ad that does that to an ap ... the ad has tons of damage from items on basic attacks, an ap has almost none (ap items generally don't proc on AA).

FirstSergeantBimMay 7, 20153 votes

You play the game and you get some kills, assists and sometimes you die trying to do it all. Complaining about your teammates stealing "your" kills is childish. It's just silly. There's no good reason to get your panties tangled up over a teammate securing the kill. You laugh it off and you move on because at the end of the day, those are the team's kills.

Those two numbers next to your KDA, do you see them? Yeah, that's the team's score and that's what matters. Furthermore, if you're getting upset about that "kill steal" then you're letting your emotions get the better of you and it's ruining your ability to play the game to the best of your ability.

This game isn't like an FPS at all, and the fact that you're willing to make that comparison only proves your inability to see the complexity of League. He's right when he says the only people who care about "KS'ing" are in Bronze and Silver. Once you start playing with people who understand the game and know how to win (that's what matters) they are more interested in using kills to push objectives, so it doesn't matter who gets the kills.

Sometimes it's good for a certain role to get a kill, but sometimes not. If an ADC can get a bunch of kills they can snowball really hard, but if they aren't very good or they don't have the team to back them up, it's a negligible lead. Sometimes it's good for a tank to get those kills. That tank can be so difficult to kill their whole team can rally behind them, but if that tank's team can't snowball off of that lead, then their team risks not having enough damage to back it all up. There are so many variables that it's enough to just be grateful your team secured a kill.

Plasma ServantMay 7, 20151 votes

"once you start playing with people who understand who understand the game ...."

That is exactly my problem with the current system, there are so many immature minds out there that think only of themselves and how they did regardless of the team that it makes play less enjoyable. Most of the time they will say "it is only ____ so it doesn't count anyway". They are perfectly happy not let a nasus on their own team not farm his q if it means they do better. Not all teams are people that know and play with each other. There are plenty of teams that play because there is a person that just wants to play and have fun._ There is the off chance that you get a team that really works together from random match-ups (and where the opponent team is the same) but it is rare in random match-ups for games (I'm not exclusively talking aram, any mode). My most enjoyable games, win or lose, are where the entire team cooperates and plays together. The last hit system works against that with random match-up teams.

Commit SudokuMay 7, 20153 votes

No it doesn't, and your match-ups aren't completely random. Like in ranked the more games you win the higher your MMR gets so if you are playing well in all your game your MMR will eventually climb to play with better and better players. Basically if you are good you will eventually be playing with Diamond players in normals without playing a game of ranked in your life. The system matches you up with people your level so at this time when riot matches you up with these selfish player it is because they think that is where you belong right now in terms of skill level. So the higher you climb the less bad players you will be stuck with playing.

FirstSergeantBimMay 8, 20151 votes

Look dude, you're getting upset about some really unimportant things. The match-making system isn't random, as Left for Zed so helpfully explained, and the "last hit system" isn't working against cooperation. You're right about "immature minds" though, there certainly are a lot of those out there. Interestingly enough, I'm thinking you're an "immature mind" for getting caught up in this hogwash.

Let me tell you about Dr. Ben Carson. He is a pioneer of medicine, truly a man of great influence in the world we know today. He said that he grew up under-privileged and hated poverty, but once he realized that poverty was temporary he didn't care about poverty anymore because it was only a matter of time before he used his mind to move past it. If you feel like you're going to be stuck with unfun people for the rest of your LoL days, then you've already lost, but if you think that is just temporary and as you get better you will queue with better players, then there's nothing to fuss about.

Plasma ServantJul 19, 20151 votes

If you read all the posts, I've said it is really fun when you get paired with people that play as a team, and stinks when you don't. The problem is that getting paired with people that play as a team is rare ... and the system encourages less teamwork rather than more for those that just don't care about the team winning. If it discouraged what I'd call self-centered play, then self-centered play would stop.

FirstSergeantBimJul 20, 20151 votes

Holy shit the resurrection. Two months ago you were trying to tell us "the system was working against us" and you're still trying to do that even today. Frankly I don't have the time nor the energy to take this discussion any further. If you want to QQ, keep it up. I'm not stopping you.

Plasma ServantJul 19, 20151 votes

Just what an assassin would say. Would be better if they just nerfed the life out of assassins by making it so they can't have any defense. 300 health, no armor, no magic resist. They should be made as useless as bard is in aram.

Plasma ServantMay 6, 20151 votes

what mode people play is beside the point. Ranked is not the only part of the game. And "it doesn't matter, it's only ____" is from people that are arrogant and think the mode they play is the only one that matters. If you think that, stay out of all the other modes.

Commit SudokuMay 6, 20152 votes

Not even saying that ranked is the only mode that matters you will one day realize that everything i am saying is right. I was like you once where I thought it really mattered who got the kills in a game but truth is there is no statistic to look back on after the next 2 or 3 games you will for get about the one where Twisted Fate teleported top and just got the last hit. You won't care eventually, its a mind set of FPS players that who gets the kill matters when you become a true MOBA player you really won't care.

In time my friend you will likely have the same ideology as me.

I literally got 0/2/7 K/D/A in my ranked promos as ADC but I won the game. Didn't care, won the game. All that matters in the end.

There is a reason my original post has 11 upvotes and you complaint has 21 downvotes, you might not believe me but either this will happen or you will be in low elo for a long time.

(Really the only time I get upset about kills going to other people is if I use ignite and this dude is clearly going to die, but even then its not a big deal)

your dill kingMay 7, 20152 votes

I don't play FPS games ... just doesn't happen. and in league, I almost exclusively play aram (until mark/dash ruined that mode). And yes, I've gotten 0/x/y games and thought it was great ... a close game where I played a support role, and didn't care that someone else got all the kills. but I understand why someone would prefer a different means of play .... I play ai games and see people that say "It's only bots" as an excuse for making it a pain for everyone else. Toxic.

The truth is that there are people out there that are just play antisocial, and will starve other players and not care if the team wins or loses as long as they get their K/D/A where they want it. It stinks. So how do you make it so those people don't ruin the games they are in for the rest of their team?

Commit SudokuMay 7, 20151 votes

its next to impossible to lose bot games 4 people can afk and that 1 person would still win

Plasma ServantMay 7, 20151 votes

So you missed his point as well. Sigh. So what if you can 1v5 a bot game and still win? Does that mean if it is 5 people playing someone should ruin 4 of those peoples game because they can? If that is the case, then I suggest they never play bots. In fact, I'd suggest they never play in any team sport. It would mean they just aren't a team player.

To answer his question, you still need to say how to prevent a sociopathic player that doesn't care about anyone else from being toxic (which I admit, would probably ruin it for them ... mostly because I think they just thrive on being toxic).

Commit SudokuMay 7, 20152 votes

So basically in the end what you want is lets say you 1v1 someone mid lose the fight and they end up at 20 hp then you jungler comes in hits them once and you get the kill. That is what your are saying basically.

So if the enemy gets away from you, and someone on your team gets the last hit you think you should get the kill because you did more damage.

No you shouldn't the enemy escaped your clutches sure you did a lot of the work but no one would get credit for the kill if the other player hadn't finished him off.

This is a team game and it sounds like you just want all the credit although allowing more members of the team to get gold from a kill is better for the team. Your ideology of how a kill should be rewarded is a bit selfish and not at all how you should be thinking playing a team game. I play soccer (you know a "Team Sport") and my teammates don't care who scores the goals in a game we care whether or not we win. I've had balls clearly going in goal with no one that was going to stop them and a team mate run in at touch it last. Didn't care, a goal is a goal.

Not to mention the fact that guess what Kills in League of Legends don't win games. I've won many games being down up to 20 kills from the enemy team because they can't take objectives or rotate properly.

Plasma ServantJul 19, 20151 votes

And you are still talking about ideal play that isn't what you see on a regular basis. I've played league since year the start ... and I still see people playing as if it were an individual sport ... if I can't secure a kill, I'm going to cheer a teammate that gets a hit in and secures the kill (even in the last hit system). But If I were jungling and took out the last 40 health and instead of getting the kill, I get the assist because someone else did the work of getting the person down to 40, I'd cheer just as much. The only difference is that it would discourage people being the jerk that you have them in range, you are in the midst of taking the last skill shot that will finish them off, and someone takes the kill away ... if it gave them the assist, and the kill to the damage dealer, it would be just a little less toxic.

mvargusMay 7, 20151 votes

I know how this works, last night I was in a game and had one of my teammates call out, "Report X" on me after a fight midlane. A friend of mine (I was playing as a duo with a friend) asked why and got told that I had tried to KS after failing to help.

What was funny was that I had been backing and had pressed tab to see what people had so I could plan my next purchase, so I hadn't even realized that there was a fight at first. When I did, I fumbled my skills and missed my first skillshot causing me to dive in.

Fortunately, the player was understanding after I told him that I hadn't seen the first part of the fight, but it displayed just how important getting kills can be for some players.

Plasma ServantJul 19, 20151 votes

NO you are wrong. I complain about it because if the whole team doesn't progress, then games are lost. It isn't all about feeding one player (and it shouldn't be). If the rest of the team doesn't earn gold, then the team loses. And the gameplay stinks.

AbyssphereMay 6, 20153 votes

The reason this won't happen is that last hitting is a preferential system to "whoever did most damage gets the kill" when your team is working together. It allows people who are ahead to give away kills to those who need catching up, you can largely trust people to not KS by accident and stuff like an assassin jumping into your lane, KSing and leaving just doesn't happen because they should have better things to be doing.

Yes KSing sucks when there's a random idiot trying his best to steal every kill you can get but the last hit system makes sense when people aren't being idiots.

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20151 votes

I dunno maybe its the level of play i'm at but i find myself accidentally taking kills far more often than i get to a late enough game where it makes sense to start giving away kills to the people who are behind (full build ish).

It would be silly in my opinion to actually change the current system, by the way, now that its entrenched. It would be a minor change and not worth it. I just never understood why it was the way it was to begin with. I guess your explanation makes sense at least maybe at higher levels of play.

Plasma ServantMay 6, 20151 votes

You have a far higher opinion of others than what I see in general. Idiots seem so prevalent that I find them all the time.

mvargusMay 6, 20153 votes

I have to wonder why you worry about who gets the kill. In the end kills are such low priority objectives that you could leave out a kill count and it wouldn't affect the game much. The main thing a kill gives your team is the removal of the enemy champ from the battle for a short period.

In fact I'm finding that kills isn't a good metric for anything. KDA does help as it factors in the kills you helped with on your side against the number of times you died. This helps as it gives a way to see how much of an advantage your team got from killing enemy champs. If your team is averaging a 3.0 KDA that means you probably enjoyed 20%+ of the time played where your team had more champions alive than the other team did. That should translate into several towers pushed or a couple of dragons. I've rarely seen a team lose when their team KDA is more than 3.0.

The other metric is used by the na.op.gg site and that is "contribution to kills". Basically they had your kills and assists and then figure out what percentage of kills you contributed to. I've noticed that teams that win often see 3 or more players above 60%. This shows that your team is grouping at the right times and winning team fights.

Sure its not as sexy as saying "We won and I got 28 kills including a pentakill", but I've had matches where I got more than 15 kills and my team lost. Then I have a game like I did last night where I took Xin Zhao top lane and got wrecked early by Darius (I usually avoid top lane as I struggle there.) However when teamfights started my team shined. I ended laning phase with a KDA around 1/6/1, but finished the game at 3/9/23 and contributed to 60% of the team's kills. Heck our final team fight saw me die after engaging, only for the rest of my team to Ace the other team and then go to knock out the enemy nexus before anyone who died in that fight respawned. All I got was 4 assists, but I'll take that when it comes with a victory.

Plasma ServantMay 6, 20151 votes

I suppose it is more than I find way too many toxic players out there. People that don't play for whatever team they are in, but just play for themselves. I appreciate that in a well formed team environment, the present system would allow for giving aid to teammates, but what I have always found is exactly the opposite. Individuals that just don't care about anyone other than themselves.

I am very proud of the fact that I have a teamwork ribbon ... I play for my team. Often I play support roles and do my best to not take kills in that role. But there are times when I'm not playing that role, and there are individuals that I would never choose to play with again that are not team players. If there were a way to discourage that, and still allow a strong player to help others on the team, then I'd be all for it.

SEKAIMay 6, 20152 votes

Yeah but consider this genre is not like say your generic KDA whoring FPS (I am just talking about bad FPSs out there),

Who takes the kill isn't all that important, if at all, it's only big trouble when someone who simply doesn't scale takes all the kills. Otherwise, who cares. I only sometimes hate when someone ks me in bot games because I am a sore loser like that huehuehue.

Plasma ServantMay 7, 20151 votes

Partially because one person doing everything ... and doing their best to make sure nobody else does anything if they are around ... leaves no fun in the game for those that are being wedged out. Won't happen on a pre-built team of people that play with each other all the time, if you are playing without anyone other than the 4 individuals that sign in the same as you ... or worse, if you are the odd man out ... you're pretty much stuck if you have a DOT champ, and they have a high mobility low cd ratio champ.

What I'm interested in is stopping the FPS players from ruining the game for others in games where nobody knows anyone else.

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Plasma Servant,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oh3oHgFn,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-06T02:14:13.905+0000) It doesn't have to be that way ... just give the kill to the champion that did the most damage

Yeah i've never really understood why it doesn't work this way.

SEKAIMay 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yeah i've never really understood why it doesn't work this way.

Because something counts as a kill is when the guy puts in the last bullet that ends the target's life, the credit doesn't go to the guy who gives him the most scratches, broken bones and bruises.

Also if we implement the kill system this way, team kill management will be hideously ridiculous to manage, just think about how hard it would be to just achieve "giving your kill away", then we have plenty of other issues too. There is no need to needlessly make things insanely complicated on something that frankly matters very little in the whole scheme.

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20151 votes

So you are telling me that if three men beat a fourth man to death, the only one who is the murderer is the one the medical examiner deems to have inflicted the fatal blow? I don't think so.

Is gifting kills integral to the game? In many cases the new system would in fact make it easier to gift the kill, anyhow. No more should i/shouldn't i unleash my power chord.

SEKAIMay 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So you are telling me that if three men beat a fourth man to death, the only one who is the murderer is the one the medical examiner deems to have inflicted the fatal blow? I don't think so.

Is gifting kills integral to the game? In many cases the new system would in fact make it easier to gift the kill, anyhow. No more should i/shouldn't i unleash my power chord.

I don't think if you beat someone half dead, which he dies during his time in hospital instead of on the spot, is counted as murder but as something else. Either way, I don't major in laws.

But this is a game, rules are meant to be clear cut and easier to manage unless the purpose of the game is to simply confuse the player and not much else.

In LoL, kill goes to the person who drops the enemy HP to 0, every other participant receives an assist. It's a simple rule, hence a few things can be made on top of that, I can intentionally drop a person's hp to like 1 and let another guy finishing him off so that way I can give kills away.

If we have a system like what you suggested, kills will just always go to assassins and mages because they can deal the most damage in the shortest amount of time. Their early advantages make all kills theirs and no one else gets anything throughout the entire game, nor can they actually give any kills away to anybody because the system simply doesn't allow unless they intentionally don't particulate in certain portion of the match, which will mean to a degree this system encourages team alienation all for the sake of making a simple play as "giving the kill away".

Do you see how stupid all that is?

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20151 votes

Not really. That's pretty much how it is now, except now sometimes the support/jungler lands a "lucky" blow which ends up disappointing everyone involved 9 times out of 10.

insaiyanbaccaMay 6, 20151 votes

dont see the problem with jungler getting a kill tbh

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20151 votes

Idk i mostly jungle amumu, when i steal a kill from my mid zed i feel a bit disappointed. I guess its not so bad.

insaiyanbaccaMay 6, 20152 votes

well i mean mumu does have more impact lategame then zed

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20151 votes

Meh if its an early kill i'd rather get him rolling and never see the late game :p

But yeah.

BluePolarizerMay 6, 20152 votes

No problem with jungler getting kills. A jungler with high kill count is terrifying, especially a carry jungler that snowballs hard.

Even supports getting kills is decent. A Zyra, Sona, Vel'Koz, Annie or Karma that gets kills can solo zone the enemy bot lane.

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20152 votes

Well one way is always going to be more ideal than the other. And 9 times out of 10 i'd rather put the kill on the higher damage dealer (the one who most of the time did most of the damage getting the kill in the first place, rather than whoever happened to last hit)... that's my point of view.

BluePolarizerMay 6, 20154 votes

Lets say your Zed was 0-2. He deals negative damage. You need to get him back into the game. Oops under your system he will never be able to get the kill and to get shutdown gold on his enemy in a gank. GG for him I guess.

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20152 votes

He deals negative damage? I guess this is hyperbole?

BluePolarizerMay 6, 20151 votes

A 0-2 Zed against a 2-0 enemy mid deals pretty much negative damage compared to theirs.

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20151 votes

Why are you comparing his damage to the enemy midlaner? The two people combining on the gank are Zed and the jungler. And i'm playing amumu, so Zed baits a fight lands death mark, i come in and secure the kill, boom problem solved -- even if i happen to do the last tick of damage with my tears.

My system makes it EASIER to get the behind-zed rolling not the other way around.

Plasma ServantMay 6, 20151 votes

It isn't insanely complicated. But it would make it more team oriented throughout all modes. If nothing else, then have the gold go evenly to all the team (then everyone would be rooting for everyone else on their team, and the toxic screaming in PVP might just end.

Commit SudokuMay 7, 20152 votes

This is dumb and nothing strategic about it put all your kills on your adc and play a juggermaw comp every game that would literally be it. It makes the game one sided and puts all you eggs in one basket which is stupid. And also will make players more selfish. This would literally do the opposite of what you want because players will feel enititled to a kill that other plays literally can give them and inhibit even more toxic behaivor.

It isn't insanely complicated.

you are right it isn't its just a really short sided idea where you can't even look past why this would be terrible.

Have you noticed EVERY MOBA plays like this for how their kills work. Do you know why? Because this is best way it can be done. You are not going to sit here and tell me that this would be a better way to do things after these companies have already set up extremely successful games off of not doing so.

IDKthatcoolMay 6, 20151 votes

Last hitting is integral to the game, period, changing this mechanic would change this entire game entirely.

LegendaryLemurMay 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Last hitting is integral to the game, period, changing this mechanic would change this entire game entirely.

Why? You can leave last-hitting minions/neutral monsters in and just change last-hitting champions. I don't see why this change would necessarily have such a drastic effect.

IDKthatcoolAug 24, 20151 votes

If someone KS's the carry then that's a mistake, mistakes are part of this game like it or not, if we wanted to get rid of this why stop there, last hitting minions, cc, even damage, all there to make room for error so that people can capitalize on each other's errors. Furthermore champs with resets need to be able to run into a 3/4 over teamfight and be able to clean up without having to worry about (forgive me for this) the reverse KS that your ideal game would involve.

Plasma ServantFeb 1, 20161 votes

well, resets ought be removed as well, but that is another thread (remove them just like yi's was removed).

The mechanic would only change in that it would make players much less likely to troll other players ... regardless of who does what. Give the kill to the one with the most damage (and from my perspective, even creeps could go that way).

Commit SudokuJul 19, 20151 votes

ehh the 29 down votes really speaks for its self

if you want to play as a team just get some friends really

also this "ideal play" im talking about i do actually see on a regular basis and even when i dont, it doesnt matter if 1 person gets fed if it means i win

Plasma ServantFeb 1, 20161 votes

Just shows how many trolls there are out there.