These locket changes are cool, but do we really need more % damage reduction?

Ahri Body Pillow·Feb 26, 2018·19 votes·1,747 views

For those of you who have not read the latest PBE changes...

Locket of the Iron Solari

[Active] Active changed from an aoe shield effect to to &quot;After a brief delay, creates a protective field at your location for 8 seconds. Allied champions within the field are dealt 35% less damage (90 second cooldown).&quot;

It's very cool that you're making new, clear windows for counterplay, but is percent damage reduction really necessary? I'm not quite sure of the math behind it, but with this, knight's vow, and phantom dancer (or even death's dance) won't that make our ADC problem even more ridiculous? I like the idea of a nice little area of effect for the Locket active, one with more skill and more thinking required than just pressing a button for a shield, but I think Riot may want to consider moving into another direction with it.

Also, I hope Alistar receives a slight nerf if this goes through.

49 Comments

Shatter the SunFeb 27, 201818 votes

Illaoi laughs in item 3190 as she builds this second and proceeds to 1v5 cause they cant get through her healing.

IfnethFeb 27, 20181 votes

That’s scary.

Shatter the SunFeb 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That’s scary.

Its beautiful. 65% dmg reduction. 30% from item 3812 35% from item 3190 . Whatever is after that seals their fate.

grarrrgFeb 27, 20188 votes

Probably more like ~55% damage reduction. They are much more likely to 'multiply' stack' than they are to 'add' stack, so 0.7 * 0.65 => you take 45.5% damage Still a good pile of "nope" though.

AlienPrimateFeb 27, 20183 votes

You are correct with the multiplicative reasoning but death's dance isn't true damage reduction to begin with. First you would take 35% reduced damage and then 30% of that reduced damage is taken over 3 seconds. If it was actually 30% damage reduction form death's dance it would be 1-.65*.7=45.5% damage reduction.

grarrrgFeb 27, 20183 votes

I'm mostly just following the other guy's logic/concern. And, for the 1st second anyway, you do get the full "damage reduction" benefit, versus a burst it gives you a chance to heal/stasis/something and survive.

JustMonika13Feb 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shatter the Sun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oeaVPI3p,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T03:49:40.013+0000)

Its beautiful. 65% dmg reduction. 30% from 35% from . Whatever is after that seals their fate.

Death's dance doesn't fucking reduce damage.

It converts 30% of damage taken into bleed damage. You're still getting full damage

Shatter the SunFeb 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Death's dance doesn't fucking reduce damage.

It converts 30% of damage taken into bleed damage. You're still getting full damage

Yes but it is 30% is converted into DoT which is essentially reducing damage. Not getting it all upfront gives you time to react and deal with it. Illaoi will just heal through it as well as others who take this item.

PB4UAMEFeb 27, 20181 votes

Say you take 1000 damage, now you are taking 700, and getting an additional dot (which doesn't even start damaging you for a full tick still) for 100 damage a tick.

It provides 30% damage reduction, and then inflicts a dot. But at the point of impact for whatever damaging ability, its damage is reduced by 30%. You can't argue this as it's simply a fact. Now, you can say because of the D.o.T. that DD's passive is not as good as a condition-less damage reduction, but the presence of a negative externality or condition upon damage reduction is not sufficient enough as to render it unto a new form entirely-- whatever else may be applied with it, it is still damage reduction.

grarrrgFeb 27, 20181 votes

Your reply is essentially the same as the other dude's up above, but he was, you know, not rude about it.

{quoted}

You are correct with the multiplicative reasoning but death's dance isn't true damage reduction to begin with. First you ...

HäxelFeb 27, 20181 votes

well you can use item 3190 vs Illaoi too*[poppy-wink]*

DragonSheaFeb 27, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shatter the Sun,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oeaVPI3p,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-02-27T02:15:49.520+0000)

laughs in as she builds this second and proceeds to 1v5 cause they cant get through her healing.

https://orig00.deviantart.net/4b05/f/2010/125/4/e/enel_shocked_by_ikarl.png

We are so fucked.

SalamencęFeb 26, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Body Pillow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oeaVPI3p,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-26T23:11:00.567+0000) Also, I hope Alistar receives a huge nerf if this goes through.

FTFY

KairoptraFeb 26, 20184 votes

I think they're relying on the fact that the zone is stationary and you have to be really careful about your positioning in order to properly utilize it. Not saying anything one way or the other as to what I think of the changes; I just thought I'd throw that out there.

WiegrafOfValorFeb 27, 20181 votes

Not if you are an ADC, the only reason this item was changed was to make it the ADC protection bubble.

Cause if you are a melee champion all you can do is just sit there and eat poke.

PB4UAMEFeb 27, 20181 votes

Well, also bare in mind how a flat shield works with defensive modifier, and then consider how %DR works.

Here's a hint, the more hp, armor, or magic resist, regen, self healing and lifesteal/spellvamp/omnivamp you have, the more you want the latter.

JoeMGFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think they're relying on the fact that the zone is stationary and you have to be really careful about your positioning in order to properly utilize it. Not saying anything one way or the other as to what I think of the changes; I just thought I'd throw that out there.

That's what I'm hoping. In order to be shielded the adc will need to sit on the front line with the tank. Hopefully it's not some massive aoe.

KairoptraFeb 27, 20181 votes

You can see the current AoE on Surrender at 20 if you want.

LyingOnLineFeb 27, 20183 votes

It’s completely useless.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 27, 20183 votes

Why would they change locket from a reactive item that is the counterplay to other game elements into a proactive item than can be avoided entirely?

PB4UAMEFeb 27, 20182 votes

Because with all the shit ADCs have to abuse, and all the free sustain and lifesteal they get nowadays makes it too strong for the role it was originally intended for (teamfighting burst shielding/counter engaging) because of how ADCs alone are way too strong with it.

So now they are making it scale the least with ADCs and the most with bruisers, juggernauts and tanks.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 27, 20181 votes

ADCs are too strong so we are nerfing an item which allows the support to help other members of the team? Locket is one of the few support items that allows supports to support the entire team instead of being dedicated to being the ADCs bitch.

YerroFeverFeb 26, 20182 votes

Oh my.... creating an aoe alistar ult for your team.... I'm not looking forward to this...

VoraciousXFeb 27, 20182 votes

35% damage reduction seems insanely high considering phantom dancer's 12% and Death's Dance. I mean Draven will become nuts most likely as he used to build death's dance first item iirc and he's definitely gonna get PD.

grarrrgFeb 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

35% damage reduction seems insanely high considering phantom dancer's 12% and Death's Dance.

"Seems insanely high", but it's an active item with a long cooldown. Compared to Phantom Dancer which can be "always on". And Death's Dance ultimately doesn't prevent any damage.

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 27, 20182 votes

I actually don't mind it.

Old Maokai ultimate was a unique, interesting idea that encouraged you to fight in a specific area. It also makes Solari less generically good (Haha a shield built on everyone) and more of an item you get use out of if you fight in confined or close-knit spaces.

DraehlFeb 27, 20182 votes

Not a fan. Even though it doesn't shield a huge amount it's nice to have on-demand shielding to block a DoT, Ignite, etc. Sure, it might be nicer if you're going to eat a Vlad ult or something but I'd rather keep the flat amount.

AirKingNeoFeb 26, 20181 votes

By cool, you mean broken?

Bruisers invalidated xdddd

AlienPrimateFeb 27, 201810 votes

This is actually better for bruisers than mages and ADC's. Before it was a flat shield which would increase the squishy's HP bar by a flat amount. Now it is a percentage meaning the more health you have the more effective it is.

Old - 800 shield on a 2000 hp target for 2800 effective hp new - 35% reduction on 2000 hp target for ~~3080~~ effective hp

Do the same for a bruiser though.

Old - 800 shield on a 3500 hp target for 4300 effective hp new - 35% reduction on a 3500 hp target for ~~5380~~ effective hp

Edit: After a bit of thought I realized I did the math wrong.

ADC/mage

Old - 2800 new - 3300

Bruiser

Old - 4300 New - 5775

Adc/mage gains 1300 while bruiser gains 2275 effective HP with the new locket.

Into The AetherFeb 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This is actually better for bruisers than mages and ADC's. Before it was a flat shield which would increase the squishy's HP bar by a flat amount. Now it is a percentage meaning the more health you have the more effective it is.

Old - 800 shield on a 2000 hp target for 2800 effective hp new - 35% reduction on 2000 hp target for ~~3080~~ effective hp

Do the same for a bruiser though.

Old - 800 shield on a 3500 hp target for 4300 effective hp new - 35% reduction on a 3500 hp target for ~~5380~~ effective hp

Edit: After a bit of thought I realized I did the math wrong.

ADC/mage

Old - 2800 new - 3300

Bruiser

Old - 4300 New - 5775

Adc/mage gains 1300 while bruiser gains 2275 effective HP with the new locket.

Technically since squishies are squishy, tankier characters already get more out of a shield. Armor/MR scaling them up in effective value. Targeting squishies with shields is more of a threshold thing, I.E. living 1-3 more seconds tilts the outcome hard. Shield/Heal spamming your tank while he duels makes him pretty beefy.

This does double down on that a little more, by scaling the effective shield to the amount of health. But it actually goes further.

If you get popped to half health before the shield pops, you have less health to scale. The old version, if the shield goes up halfway through someone's combo, it's got a similar effect to landing before it, as long as the entire shield gets used up either way.

By the same token, if you're Drain tanking, this scales off of that. Just like having less effective health from being damaged before weakens this, having more from Lifesteal items or being Vlad/Akali/Warwick means this continues to scale that up.

Because this is added scalability to health instead of added health being scaled, it'll also mean enchanters shields and heals will be stronger when used on someone in the bubble.

Likewise, if the shield from old locket would be wasted in part by exceeding what you blocked, you'll take at least some damage since this is only reduction.

This seems like a pretty plain increase in raw power at the cost of shifting what the item is good at. I.E., it's less good against Annie and Miss Fortune and other clutch timing against burst use cases. It's generally better at making existing sustain/durability in a team fight or siege scenario more powerful.

AhristocatsFeb 27, 20182 votes

shields are better the less hp you have unless they scale with hp

that's why old shen's W was garbage

Into The AetherFeb 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oeaVPI3p,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T18:56:19.157+0000)

no

shields are better the less hp you have unless they scale with hp

that's why old shen's W was garbage

Proportionally. But that’s only because the same relationship is true of health.

If you have 1500 HP, 300 more HP is +20%. If you have 3000 HP, 300 more is +10%.

But if you have 0% scaling on 300 health, it’s absolute value is +300. Whereas if you have 50% damage reduction combined from Armor and other sources, it’s absolute value is +600.

Tankier characters tend to have more resistances in their build, so they do get more absolute value from shields. They’re a harder wall to claw through when given the same amount of shielding or healing. There isn’t some inverse relationship at work there.

Shen’s old W doesn’t look like it was garbage. It was just at odds with his kit for scaling. It’d’ve scaled off of Armor/MR, while his Q and passive scaled off of HP. It also had the problem of being something you wouldn’t usually want to max first in lane, and most of it’s base value came from leveling.

AhristocatsFeb 27, 20182 votes

every shields scale with armor/mr, it didn't matter shen's w was subpar compared to everything else shields are still proportionally better the less hp you have

and damage reduction is proportionally better the more hp you have

Into The AetherFeb 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oeaVPI3p,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T20:49:35.697+0000)

every shields scale with armor/mr, it didn't matter shen's w was subpar compared to everything else shields are still proportionally better the less hp you have

and damage reduction is proportionally better the more hp you have

Damage reduction is proportionally neutral regardless of your HP value. Cut damage in half, be twice as tough. Particularly since different sources of % reduction are multiplicative.

Damage reduction’s absolute value increases with more health and other source of toughness. Same relationship as Armor/MR with shields. It’s synergy, there’s something extra there that isn’t without the interaction of the two. The marginal value of adding or removing it has to be thought of with respect to what else is there for it to interact with.

What’s changing here, is this is removing a source of health and giving a source of damage reduction. So in cases where there are a lot of sources of health, this is probably a buff. Like a Juggermaw comp will probably see Kog pressing W for great justice while sitting in front of a turret or baron, and being harder to kill while doing so. Or a similar ADC that can build item 3072 and sit in one spot with an Enchanter. It’ll also make things like Vlad and various tanks stronger, just so long as it’s not in a situation that the counterplay weakens. I.E., too bursty, too pokey, or too much movement.

AirKingNeoFeb 28, 20181 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/80rgzu/math_comparing_new_locket_pbe_with_current_locket/

I actually did the math. Also, it's about bruisers becoming much worse than tanks and supports being more powerful.

AhristocatsFeb 27, 20181 votes

locket changes

that's a huge nerf to adcs and a huge buff to bruisers

AirKingNeoFeb 27, 20181 votes

actually, I can do the math on this.

Equation: (100/(100 - X)) x H = Effective Health.

X is your damage reduction as a raw number, removing the % sign. H is your health (and let's include shields for that sake). We'll be using physical damage for the example because bruisers and adcs deal physical damage. Using level 12 and 2.5 items plus boots as Varus, Kled, and Ornn.

Varus - Level 12 - 1346 HP, 65 Armor (40% pDR)

Aatrox - Level 12 - 2182 HP, 114 Armor (53% pDR, not counting Ninja Tabi's passive) - Conditioning Rune Bonus, Ninja Tabi, Trinity Force, Sterak's Gage. Sterak's gives a 1524 decaying shield at level 12, which we'll count as a 500 shield for all sake and purpose since it is decaying.

Ornn - Level 12 - 2292 HP + 275 from W shield, 221 Armor (69% pDR, not counting Ninja Tabi's passive) - Condition Rune Bonus, Ninja Tabi, Sunfire Cape, Abyssal Mask, Bramble Vest, and Cloth Armor.

Old Locket Assuming this gives a 500 shield, we can do the math by adding that shield to the current health and running it through the equation.

Varus - (100/(100 - 40)) x 1836 = 3060 Effective Health against physical damage.

Aatrox - (100/(100 - 53)) x 3182 = 6770 Effective Health against physical damage.

Ornn - (100/(100 - 69)) x 3067 = 9894 Effective Health against physical damage.

New Locket This a bit more tricky because we have to assume the damage reduction is post resistances, rather than additive. This changes our equation to: (100/(100 - X)) x (100/(100 - 35)) x H = Effective health.

Varus - (100/(100 - 40)) x (100/(100 - 35)) x 1346 = 3451 Effective Health against physical damage.

Aatrox - (100/(100 - 53)) x (100/(100 - 35)) x 2682 = 8779 Effective Health against physical damage.

Ornn - (100/(100 - 69)) x (100/(100 - 35)) x 2567 = 12739 Effective Health against physical damage.

I don't know about you, but I'm not looking forward into a heavy CC, hypercarry meta where you lock people down so you don't have to move out of your Locket zone, and this makes Varus very good with his ult.

AhristocatsFeb 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Old Locket Assuming this gives a 500 shield

lol

grarrrgFeb 27, 20181 votes

For whatever it is worth, the basic concept of the item is the same "active > nearby allies take less damage". Shield version: prevents all damage to a point. Might take no damage, but if it breaks you take all remaining damage. %Reduction version: some damage will always get through, just never all of it.

It all comes down to how the numbers get tuned. 35% may very well be on the high side, but if it's fixed to the map, and not a champion...

ThePikolFeb 27, 20181 votes

Probably beacuse dmg overall is too high so Riot in their greatness, rather than lowering damage, grants us with a counterplay which is dmg reduction

T4underboltFeb 27, 20181 votes

Yet another bullsht item for supports that completely denies existence of assassins and bruisers. Yet another item making ADCs immortal. People will just skip full support item to build Solaris and gg. Have fun killing anyone.

ZelorxonFeb 27, 20181 votes

WHAT?!

A DELAYED AOE NEAR ME? DOES IT MEAN THAT I HAVE TO STOP BUILDING LOCKET IN BRONZE/SILVER/GOLD/PLAT?!

Ahri Body PillowMar 1, 20181 votes

Did you even read the post?

Tychusfindlay918Feb 27, 20181 votes

Better htan having a fatass shield.

BacunwulfFeb 27, 20181 votes

All they did was make the item a free penta for brand and a get out of jail unscathed card for any tank who builds it. I will just be glad to not be pestered to build it on enchanters anymore since 35% damage reduction still doesn't stop that 1 Tick of DoT from killing someone. Plus standing in a circle like that is begging for a cc storm down on your location. Also 85% damage reduction Warwick will be a sight to see. Yeah maybe you can pop it with a Janna ult, but in the meantime your team has either wandered out or gotten pulled out or a aoe hailstorm has just rocked down on your head. They definitely drew a hard line for what this item will and won't be good for now.

ChroudFeb 27, 20181 votes

This is awesome. So I think of it like a skill shot for a shield although you do not need to aim it you need to now make sure you are in a good spot to risk the deploy of the shield? (Fantastic) i am all for mechanics that make the game feel more interactive.

Elkington VIFeb 28, 20181 votes

Bringing back %damage reduction is something Riot should have done a long time ago. I'd prefer if it was through runes, but this is certainly better than nothing.

%dmg reduction helps bruisers more than any other class, since they scale so well with hp.