Counterplay should extend past champ select.

Ahri Body Pillow·Feb 1, 2019·120 votes·19,796 views

If the only way to beat a champion is to pick 1 or more champions to counter it, that champion is poorly designed.

Change my mind.

152 Comments

Ignika DFeb 1, 201945 votes

enemy first picked darius lets see the champions i cant take top this game Chogath DrMundo Maokai Trundle Tryndamere Shen Nautilus Nasus Sion Garen Irelia Singed Akali Poppy Malphite Ornn

fun for the hole family

DrohhanFeb 1, 20196 votes

yikes, Trundle is a completely 1 sided matchup against darius, and Tryndamere is also a good pick, Garen , Irelia and Shen are also skill matchups [sg-lux-2]

EonslegacyFeb 1, 20194 votes

Skill until the jungler appears, then its whoever got the gank wins forever

DrohhanFeb 2, 20192 votes

true lol

SaezioFeb 1, 20192 votes

You forgot riven and yasuo

Akaly mainFeb 2, 20191 votes

yasuo counters darius. and riven too :D

ZardoFeb 2, 20192 votes

Darius hard counters yasuo. The matchup isn't even close.

Riven does counter Darius though.

SaezioFeb 1, 20198 votes

You have trouble with darius huh.... So what do you do when toplane picks Jayce Aatrox Urgot Viktor ? I haven't played top at all for like 3 patches but I guess they were not dumpstered where they?

EonslegacyFeb 1, 20192 votes

aatrox you lock in riven, Jayce lock in ahri, Urgot lock in malzahar, pretty sure i have no clue how victor top plays so no comment.

y0r1ckFeb 2, 20198 votes

Yorick is solid vs viktor

Frog goes mooFeb 2, 20192 votes

that's a big lie. Anything without mobility gets dumpstered by viktor. Try ekko into viktor. If you've ever beaten a viktor top with yorick either that viktor was new or your jungler camped your lane.

GhaelWindsFeb 2, 20197 votes

{quoted}

that's a big lie. Anything without mobility gets dumpstered by viktor. Try ekko into viktor. If you've ever beaten a viktor top with yorick either that viktor was new or your jungler camped your lane.

Hello sir, the viktor v yorick lane actually does indeed favor the yorick. Yorick has natural sustain on his Q and post level 3 trades favor yorick since E-W is enough to get yorick in easy range and keep him there since viktor atk speed is so slow. Plus if a yorick wishes he can just perma shove in the lane. It only gets sketchy when viktor gets upgraded Q with boots, but that just makes the E harder to land. Overall it's a pretty fine lane for yorick.

(And yorick could just E and let ghouls attack viktor just to free up some space too valid strategy for that lane in particular)

Frog goes mooFeb 2, 20192 votes

You're actually right I just checked. https://champion.gg/champion/Viktor/Top

Damm. I thought he beat every immobile boi :(

Emo TwinkFeb 2, 20199 votes

The whole point of the thread is saying counterplay should extend past champ select.

SweedishGunnerFeb 2, 20192 votes

Viktor got knee capped did you not see the patch notes? Ironically I'm pretty sure he's still better top than mid though.

Off Meta EvanFeb 1, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ignika D,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VFb62ycE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-02-01T19:21:53.980+0000)

enemy first picked darius lets see the champions i cant take top this game

fun for the hole family

I agree that darius is a poorly designed champ some of these picks are not accurate. Champs like malphite that are super linear and essentially just walking R buttons, totally agree, you're fucked. But a character like Shen who has a lot of versatility in his kit CAN be more useful than darius and CAN survive laning phase. You have to play it just right and it requires knowing a decent amount about the game/character but it certainly can be done.

y0r1ckFeb 2, 20191 votes

Darius is the worst matchup for shen.

Off Meta EvanFeb 2, 20192 votes

Vladimir Aatrox

Over InnsmouthFeb 2, 20191 votes

Both of those champs are gated by cooldowns and Shen can at least take advantage of those cooldowns, Darius without cooldowns still has his passive and by extension, Noxian Might.

In lane at least. Lategame Vladimir will become more of a problem than Shen can ever deal with.

Off Meta EvanFeb 4, 20191 votes

Darius is limited by mana, sustain that only comes from landing an ability on you, and the fact that his W is an auto attack. so you can block that with yours.

Aatrox is a walking stat check rn that will murder you very quickly if he gets just a few abilities off. Due to his high level of sustain and ult, you essentially have 0 chance of killing him unless you're just WAAAAYYY better at this game than him by a large margin. His Q extends further out than Darius Q as well as heals him on minons and champs alike. So he's even more oppressive under tower than darius. He has higher cooldowns but his passive is still % max hp attack and his abilities are still extremely high impact.

Vladimir you're right that in lane vlad will not be as bad as darius in terms of kill pressure but the fact that he has a strong late game, really good sustain, ranged, and no mana, means that you can't afford to just AFK farm. He's a ticking time bomb and because you're a peel tank, you have extremely low kill potential. Shen's entire kit means that he's not supposed to be a massive lane bully, unless you've just acquired a huge lead.

Yeah Darius is rough for sure but a lane where i just have to survive and be useful for my team is a LOT easier to deal with as Shen thanks to his R button. It doesn't matter if i'm 20 Cs down if my bot lane is 5/0 cause i gave them a double kill early into the game.

wildfox9TFeb 2, 20192 votes

same story with Yasuo mid,either counterpick him with the few "counters" (aka people that doesn't get immediately shit on) or pray that he's not good with his champ

kinda the same goes for Cassiopeia and Ryze if the opponent is decent,though they are not seen often (especially in lower ranks) so nobody complains about them

KivolanFeb 2, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ignika D,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VFb62ycE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-02-01T19:21:53.980+0000)

enemy first picked darius lets see the champions i cant take top this game

fun for the hole family

My favorite is when I have to pick a champion first and then Darius spams their emotes / mastery the entire lane phase while I try to farm under turret. Fun times.

The EcdysiastFeb 1, 201937 votes

Darius

No, apparently Riot's official stance is that balance can be obtained with hard polarity, instead of all-around balance.

5StackUltOneShotFeb 2, 20194 votes

{quoted}

No, apparently Riot's official stance is that balance can be obtained with hard polarity, instead of all-around balance.

Darius Kassadin Anivia Cassiopeia Fiora Yasuo Teemo basically

Bob the ToastrFeb 1, 201931 votes

Additional point: If the only way to beat a champion is hard CC, that champion is poorly designed.

GlaricionFeb 2, 20196 votes

I'd put a caveat on it.

If a champion is heavily reliant on channels and has a reasonable TTK, then it works (Kat). If a champion has several ways to mitigate it and their TTK on you is low, then it is a poor design choice (Yi).

LTK KoRoFeb 2, 201910 votes

gunblade kat doesn't have reasonable TTK someone, outside of that i agree.

Daddy AntsFeb 1, 201924 votes

When I see Lucian picked bot lane.

Can't take 99% of the ADC roster.

Sir SaltarinFeb 1, 20197 votes

You can pick Draven !

Daddy AntsFeb 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VFb62ycE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-02-01T20:08:56.707+0000)

You can pick Draven !

And feed my ass off because my ability to play Draven is.............. questionable xD

Sir SaltarinFeb 4, 20191 votes

The duality of starting to play Draven

https://imgur.com/a/2nIIcN1

I honestly dont feel that Lucian is that opressive, sure he is on numbers and I know he's bonkers but I feel more helpless playing against Draven or cancers like Cassio Heimer.

(I just sended you friend request btw)

Daddy AntsFeb 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VFb62ycE,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-04T12:54:07.127+0000)

The duality of starting to play Draven

https://imgur.com/a/2nIIcN1

I honestly dont feel that Lucian is that opressive, sure he is on numbers and I know he's bonkers but I feel more helpless playing against Draven or cancers like Cassio Heimer.

(I just sended you friend request btw)

Not on this acc right now.

I'll accept when I am

FOR JUSTICEFeb 1, 201916 votes

counterpicking helps, but 99% of the matchups in this game arent just simple stat checks as you make it seem. every matchup has its counterplay in one was or another.

Zed geniusFeb 2, 20192 votes

Not really. Maybe in bot lane because it's a combination of 2 champions vs another 2, but for solo lanes that's not the case. Assuming that the players are around the same skill level(no more than 1 TIER difference), some matchups are determinded from champion select. Let's take for example in mid lane, you have a Zed versus a Lissandra. Liss q is quite hard to dodge from close range, where zed needs to be to output damage. If you poke from far away, you do no damage because if she uses her brain she will buy a cloth armor. If you all-in she procs w afterschock and leaves with E in the meantime. If you try to ult her as zed she ults herself, or even if she missclicks on you and ults you instead she still wins. Throughout all that, she does more damage than you while being a lot tankier than you. How do you win that lane? You don't. There are plenty of matchups like this for every solo laning champion, which can only be won if the jungler camps the shit out of your lane to make it basically a 2v1.

ZardoFeb 2, 20191 votes

How do you win that lane?

Attack her mana. Force her to waste her mana until you force recalls or make her concede priority, then roam.

NoDiscussionFeb 1, 201911 votes

Welcome to top lane.

It's why you see a lot of top lane one tricks because it's easier to master one champion to the point where you know how to deal with counters effectively with off-meta builds and/or rune page setups compared to simply having proficiency with a broad range of champions and understanding that some games you're just ruined.

EonslegacyFeb 1, 20191 votes

You do realize most high elo 1 tricks just dodge right? Almost all one trick players when they see their hardest counter simply dodge the game. Its just not worth the risk.

Gallows madnessFeb 2, 20193 votes

Not true a lot will find a way around it so they can play it right. It's why they are up on the ladder so high

ThbigchiefFeb 1, 20194 votes

Who even counters Darius? dont say teemo... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

5050BSFeb 1, 201910 votes

Yorick Kayle Vayne Teemo Illaoi Urgot

ZerenzaFeb 1, 20198 votes

I'd probably remove Vayne and Teemo from that lol They die the second he touches them.

Yets4240Feb 1, 20192 votes

To add on, Sion, Cho, Garen, Olaf, Trundle, Shen and Ornn are skill match ups that can easily go in their favor, as they have better gank assistance, more utility, and generally are more useful out of laning.

Personally, I prefer Garen or Urgot into him. Garen out sustains him (past early game) has imho a better 1 vs 1 at 6, worse gank assistance, but he's bulkier and safer. Urgot is somewhat similar. Less actual sustain, more active damage mitigation to prevent taking as much damage in the first place than Garen, but you play the lane similarly, trying to poke and whittle Darius down while avoiding extended trades, and using W to absorb as much as you can. All in at 6 for an easy kill, win lane from there. Safer from ganks than Darius, more range, better teamfight, more AoE, more CC, more bulk. . . Other than a reseting execute and his Q heal, Urgot does a lot of what Darius does but safer, and more reliably; albeit with lower highs.

Ignika DFeb 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

To add on, Sion, Cho, Garen, Olaf, Trundle, Shen and Ornn are skill match ups that can easily go in their favor, as they have better gank assistance, more utility, and generally are more useful out of laning.

Personally, I prefer Garen or Urgot into him. Garen out sustains him (past early game) has imho a better 1 vs 1 at 6, worse gank assistance, but he's bulkier and safer. Urgot is somewhat similar. Less actual sustain, more active damage mitigation to prevent taking as much damage in the first place than Garen, but you play the lane similarly, trying to poke and whittle Darius down while avoiding extended trades, and using W to absorb as much as you can. All in at 6 for an easy kill, win lane from there. Safer from ganks than Darius, more range, better teamfight, more AoE, more CC, more bulk. . . Other than a reseting execute and his Q heal, Urgot does a lot of what Darius does but safer, and more reliably; albeit with lower highs.

your jungler wont come you just hostage all game

EonslegacyFeb 1, 20191 votes

Ahri wait for his aprehend, push E land on top of him charming himpush W q wait for the q to go off, walk away congrats you took 30 plus 40% total ad from darius and he took 800 from you. Ah best and easiest lane ever. Oh if he tries to flash on you, just push R, or flash, or zhonyas, or.... well anything you have 90 different tools to not die.

wildfox9TFeb 2, 20192 votes

item 3194 item 3211 item 3065 item 3155 item 3139

MR items are still too strong for mages before their mid/lategame (where they close their cores and can get item 3135 )

if he build magic resist ahri will just go oom before killing him,if she gets caught twice by his E she's dead also once darius build some movement speed + HP items she's basically done

y0r1ckFeb 2, 20193 votes

http://matchup.gg/matchup/Shen/Darius/TOP

What the fuck are you on shen is a skill matchup. Shen can't go anywhere near darius at any point.

Off Meta EvanFeb 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Who even counters Darius? dont say teemo... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Quinn Kennen Jayce Aatrox Gangplank Lissandra Ryze Urgot Vladimir Swain Yorick Illaoi Darius is an EZ champ to counter he's just super oppressive in certain match ups

Crescent DuskFeb 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Off Meta Evan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VFb62ycE,comment-id=000b0004,timestamp=2019-02-01T23:35:21.003+0000)

Darius is an EZ champ to counter he's just super oppressive in certain match ups

lol no way Vladimir beats a Darius who builds early MR, same for Lissandra. If her rushes merc boots into phage and then makes his way to spirit visage you can forget about 1v1'ing him, especially if he's smart and instead of ignite takes ghost alongside flash.

Off Meta EvanFeb 4, 20191 votes

If he builds MR then more than likely, yeah you're not gonna have insane amounts of kill pressure but you're going to be infinitely more useful to your team than a full MR darius. Winning lane against darius doesn't just mean you can 1v1 him, it means that you went out of the laning phase even or slightly ahead. With Vladimir 100000% you're going to eventually be able to just hard duel him, Your late game is nasty and if you know how to kit it's free. Lissandra has one of the best pick and teamfights in the game rn now so just making it out of laning phase with a decent amount of gold is a win.

Crescent DuskFeb 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Off Meta Evan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VFb62ycE,comment-id=000b000400000000,timestamp=2019-02-04T21:57:34.700+0000)

If he builds MR then more than likely, yeah you're not gonna have insane amounts of kill pressure but you're going to be infinitely more useful to your team than a full MR darius. Winning lane against darius doesn't just mean you can 1v1 him, it means that you went out of the laning phase even or slightly ahead. With 100000% you're going to eventually be able to just hard duel him, Your late game is nasty and if you know how to kit it's free. has one of the best pick and teamfights in the game rn now so just making it out of laning phase with a decent amount of gold is a win.

That MR Darius only has bot lane to fear (as he always has anyways). Once he got trinity force, spirit visage, sterak's and deadman's plate with merc boots you will never duel him as Vlad, period. Not with full rabbadons, void staff, merc shoes, morellos/protobelt build. Vlad will never outburst Darius and the fact is once he pulls you in you have to blow pool to stall his stacks, and you HAVE to take ghost to match his ghost or he'll be right back on you onto a guillotine that will slice off more than half your health.

AD items are just r%%%%%ed OP right now compared to AP builds for dueling potential. You can seek this difference even more starkly among the assassins. Compare a Zed/Talon/Yasuo vs. Katarian/Fizz and it's clear as day that AD items both provide offensive steroids on top of having defensive steroids that don't make them stationary and unable to use any ability.