Is it just me or are lee sin/nidalee extremely similar?

UPfreely·Mar 14, 2015·48 votes·5,504 views

They're both

highly mobile junglers land long range skill shots to engage on you have high damage burst combos have good sustain

their play patterns just seem so similar...

49 Comments

BeerOfRoot4843Mar 14, 201521 votes

They can both go AP support.

SleepyLionCubMar 14, 201517 votes

Its because they have an enage and escape in their kits that are always up.

Amumu goes in. and he has to commit. Lee sin goes in, does a 360 noscope(so mlg) and gets back out before anyone can cc him.

I Main SwainMar 14, 20157 votes

it's true. played him yesterday for like the 3rd time ever in an aram. level 6 I was able to dive their turret, e, ult someone out, and w out before dying. all in the midst of 5 enemy champs.

OhOkYeaMar 14, 201511 votes

Not really. Lee Sin players do have to actually try to 100-0 people. Nid players just press Q, and if they are ambitious they can press R and then face roll.

UPfreelyMar 14, 20156 votes

to be fair, most nids build full dmg while lee sin goes almost full tank, I'm sure a damage built lee could be almost as bursty with his 1180+4.8 bonus AD combo

edit for comparison sake nids full combo minus traps(assuming full distance spear) is 1200 + 3.15 ap + 2.5 AD where as its this with a point blank spear: 900 + 2.35 ap + 2.5 AD

OhOkYeaMar 14, 20159 votes

{quoted}

to be fair, most nids build full dmg while lee sin goes almost full tank, I'm sure adamage built lee could be almost as bursty with his 1180+480% bonus AD combo

Eh, late game sure. Nid can do this at level 1-3.

UPfreelyMar 14, 20156 votes

yeah but early game lee sins Q has a staggering amount of base(with almost half his scaling attached to it) followed by a huge AS steroid, their damage isn't as far apart as you'd think.

OhOkYeaMar 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

yeah but early game lee sins Q has a staggering amount of base(with almost half his scaling attached to it) followed by a huge AS steroid, their damage isn't as far apart as you'd think.

I rarely have a problem with an early game lee. Yes he does some pretty awesome damage but he has to get up close and once his combo is done, he's done for a second. Nid just haphazardly throws spears and if that doesn't kill you, can hit R and faceroll with little to no risk.

UPfreelyMar 14, 20155 votes

you say that like lee has real risk to offset his power, i feel like you're using double standards here.

AbyssphereMar 14, 201513 votes

{quoted}

Not really. Lee Sin players do have to actually try to 100-0 people. Nid players just press Q, and if they are ambitious they can press R and then face roll.

*press Q 50 times and wait for one to actually hit

OhOkYeaMar 14, 201513 votes

{quoted}

*press Q 50 times and wait for one to actually hit

Throws from off screen and hits every time

AbyssphereMar 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Never seen that happen anywhere from Bronze to LCS but if you think anyone has a 100% javelin hit rate then I sure hope you recommend them to TSM.

BakedLotionMar 14, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Never seen that happen anywhere from Bronze to LCS but if you think anyone has a 100% javelin hit rate then I sure hope you recommend them to TSM.

Hes probably talking about the game he played where the enemies didnt pink ward the spears. 100% hit rate isnt hard when your enemies dont pink ward the spears

Sona PingMar 14, 20157 votes

It's just you. Ignoring the bit about calling Nid a jungler... everything you said is very basic.

"Two champions with qualities that let them jungle, they let them jungle...they also have a skill shot somewhere." Not really a worthwhile observation dude.

Raja ChachkiMar 14, 20154 votes

She is now a jungler, with the changes to her passive(applies to monsters and roots them), she can quickly and easily clear the jungle, and sustain with her heal. Playing lanes holds Nidalee back.

Sona PingMar 14, 20152 votes

"* Ignoring the bit about calling Nid a jungler...*"

As in, "I don't want to drag on talking about this point, so let's all collectively decide **not **to mention it so none of us have to waste our time with another drawn out and ultimately pointless thread on it."

The topic is the same; Leesin is not similar to Nidalee

Xx420n0sc0p3sxXMar 14, 20156 votes

Both land their q on you then you lose half your hp atleast to their combo.

Kuroi86Mar 14, 20152 votes

Not to sound mean, but is there actually a champ that can't half health you if you eat their full combos?

Xx420n0sc0p3sxXMar 14, 20154 votes

Definetly, but, you see, most of these champs don't have high mobility. Along with this, Nid and Lee can spam their initiate. If they are level 6, you are probably dead if you aren't near a tower, tanky, or fairly fed.

If I eat a Velkoz combo, I'm like "Messed up, got hit by his easy to dodge e and payed for it", If I take a Kat q>e>w combo, I can't do much about it because of the w ms if I'm a mage. You can dodge almost every spear and Lee q, but as soon as one hits (The have stupid low cd's aswell), you are dead, chunked to the point where you have to recall.

You are right, but most champs combos rely on a high cd ability. Oh, and Nid only has to spend mana on her spear. Take someone like Lux or Vel, and then have to use a lot of mana to get a combo off.

Kuroi86Mar 14, 20151 votes

Definetly

Who? Genuinely curious. I cannot genuinely think of a damage dealer that can't half health you with a full combo. Heck I could do it with Leona or Taric pretty easily.

You can dodge almost every spear and Lee q, but as soon as one hits (The have stupid low cd's aswell), you are dead, chunked to the point where you have to recall.

True to a point. Nid being 6, Lee Sin being 11-7. Nid's spear though takes a chunk of mana and she has a finite limit on how many she can throw before having to back, even with blue buff. And both champs wasting time throwing Q's trying to hit you means time they are falling behind. For squishy champs, they are most definitely a daunting threat. I've found that any champ with innate sustain or tankiness tends to have relatively little to worry about. (Not even kidding, Mordekaiser tends to shrug off Lee Sin ganks rather easily, even if Lee Sin has ult lol. The only time you've got to worry is if you're in a lane that heavily counters you with high poke from long range.)

KaisadiIIaMar 14, 20152 votes

Bard item 3070

Kuroi86Mar 15, 20151 votes

Hm, true, didn't think of him. Given his level of poke, and the builds you can come up with on him. (Lich Bane, Luden's Echo makes your Q, Auto pretty nasty after you get some chimes.) He may not have a ton of damage, but for the sheer level of utility he brings to the table more than makes up for it.

LarasoMar 15, 20151 votes

Well, if you build lich bane + luden's echo on just about any champ in the game, their Q > AA combo is going to hurt.

Kuroi86Mar 15, 20151 votes

I won't disagree with you, just thought the combo would be pretty awesome on him with collecting chimes. Give you some pretty good wave clear and heavy poke.

KaisadiIIaMar 15, 20151 votes

Viktor

Ancestor007Mar 15, 20151 votes

Ummm... Zac?

Kuroi86Mar 15, 20151 votes

Eh?

quick number look up and calculations

Mk, Zac can deal up to 1310 +160% AP +8% max health (+2% per 100 AP) to a single target at lvl 18

Anivia, lowest health in game second only to mini-gnar by a few points. 1658 hp and 30 MR so 2155 effective health.

Zac could do about 1442 before resistances, against effective health that should leave Anivia with 713 effective health remaining.

Granted I'm getting tired so my numbers may be a bit off.

200 AP = 320 more magic damage and another 4% max health damage so 66 for 1828 300 AP = 480 and 6% for 99 and 2021 total 400 AP = 640 and 8% for 132 for 2214 total

Hm, he'd need about 384 AP in order to assassinate Anivia, given he hits all of his abilities.

He looks a bit under tuned maybe, but I don't know if he's that undertuned...

EedatMar 14, 20155 votes

Lee Sin is like a completely inferior version of jungle Nid at this point

MartyrofsandMar 14, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin is like a completely inferior version of jungle Nid at this point

Maybe if the Lee is played by someone in wood 5. Lee defines the jungle, pretty much always has. That doesn't mean nid is bad but if you think she is better than Lee than you need to play against/with a Lee that knows what he is doing.

Focus TeemoMar 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Maybe if the Lee is played by someone in wood 5. Lee defines the jungle, pretty much always has. That doesn't mean nid is bad but if you think she is better than Lee than you need to play against/with a Lee that knows what he is doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKsTazEom7c

Correction if the enemy Nidalee IS IN ANY way competent, then she is in fact superior to Lee sin currently. Again contrary to what you said, Nidalee is a more contested jungler than Lee sin these days in High elo and competitive play.

The Chain WarderMar 15, 20153 votes

Clearly they do have similarities. Yes, both of them feel inclined to go in on EVERY Q. This is not Lee Sindrome - It's NidaLee Sindrome.

MrBuffingtonMar 14, 20152 votes

While I do agree that they share a lot of similarities, I wanted to point out that you mention their play patterns are similar (which, granted, they are), but you only mention features of their kit.

Their play patterns are similar (I would add Shaco to the list as well, maybe Riven), though, in that they exert a lot of pressure from jungle early, excel in skirmishes, and tend to fall off later in the game/during teamfights. I would say, though, that Nidalee (and Shaco) have higher early game pressure than Lee Sin, but fall off harder/are more reliant on snowballing themselves than Lee Sin is (ie. the utility they offer is often less relevant in the mid-late game, especially if they are behind), in addition to the fact that their teamfighting is weaker than Lee Sin.

UPfreelyMar 14, 20151 votes

forget the wording, its just they land one spell on you and gapclose for their entire combo. they both have built in sustain and are feared junglers atm for good reason. sure they have differences setting aside some slight mechanical differences lets look at their major key differences., nidalee turns into a cougar and places traps, has a heal/As steroid where lee has a knockback a slow and can shield. now while these may add flavor to the characters and add to how their kit functions, that's the only big difference i see between the two, flavor.

MrBuffingtonMar 14, 20151 votes

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just said their similarities go further than what you suggested in your thread

UdoIkOSc4uMar 14, 20152 votes

nidalee doesn't have an op ulti and lee has way more mobility and cc and early game damage nida just clear jungle faster than him but not by much

LytebulbMar 15, 20152 votes

nidaleesin

VettahnMar 15, 20152 votes

In my opinion, Nidalee is much more similar to Jayce. Both have combos that require hitting a skillshot, using a mobility spell, switching "forms", and mashing keys to do massive damage.

WheatloafMar 14, 20151 votes

Lee has the addition of cc, and his engage and escape don't share cool downs.

WESTFALLMar 14, 20151 votes

Well that's only if you play lee sin as a bursty ad assassin . But imo that's really really risky and in most cases wrong.

Nidalee has poke, lee doesn't .

Nidalee can't jump into a whole team and expect to get out safely, lee sin can .

Lee has cc, Nida doesn't .

Lee's sustain is based on aa's, nida's sustain is innate .

They have similarities, but they also have differences that kinda make both of them unique

Kuroi86Mar 14, 20151 votes

They're both

highly mobile junglers land long range skill shots to engage on you have high damage burst combos have good sustain

their play patterns just seem so similar...

Idk about high damage burst, but their burst is still good. Then again, for champs able to go full assassin, burst is kind of a given. Also, For Lee's sustain to be good, he's got to give up early damage, otherwise he's got pretty shoddy sustain early and most of mid. (Takes three points in Safeguard/Iron Will to reach 15% LS/SV which is when it becomes worth using for more than just the shield, otherwise you won't really notice the sustain.)

TwoDMar 15, 20151 votes

a yellow monkey named "Lee" owns riot, monkey see monkey do

Jungle Lux GodMar 15, 20151 votes

I feel like you have a really good grasp on their play patterns, but the play pattern that you are talking about assumes that the two junglers are even or ahead than everyone else on the map. When they are behind, however, they have completely different play patterns.

When behind, Lee Sin compensates by building full tank and trying to engage in teamfights with his ult.

When behind, Nidalee assists her team by providing heals, vision (with traps), and some long range poke, although if she's behind she won't be doing too much damage with her poke.

KalarepaMar 15, 20151 votes

In early game yes. Later Lee Sin turns more into CC initiator, while Nidalee pokes and does other Nidalee things.

DengedenMar 15, 20151 votes

People refuse to learn how to play against either of them and steadfastly ignore any weaknesses they have.

this is getting scary...

AuryielMar 15, 20151 votes

Not really, no...

Annie and Amumu are extremely similar

They both deal burst of magic damage They both have AoE CC They both can initiate They both have a way to increase their survivability They both have a way to constantly deal AoE damage

Azir and Cassiopeia are extremely simiar

They both deal high magic damage DPS They both have to hit a skillshot to deal most of their damage They both have an ult that serves as a counter-engage and can sometimes be used to engage They both want to poke you heavily in lane but have little kill potential They both scale really well

If you're just gonna list the few things that champions that play very differently in common, then yes, you can manage to make them sound eerily similar even though they're not

Nid is a poke champion, Lee not so much Lee's mobility is very bursty, Nid's is a lot more sustained Lee has good CC, Nid has none Nid places traps around, which brings a lot of utility Lee doesn't have access to

Annie is a mage, Amumu is a tank

Azir is a long range dps mage with no sustain and good zone control, Cassiopeia is an atrocious abomination but that aside, she's a short range dps mage with a boat load of health and mana sustain and little to no zone control now that her W damage is a complete joke. Azir has to watch his solider's positioning, Cass has to hit Qs and position herself properly. Cass chases targets down really well, Azir sucks royally at it. Cass has no instant mobility, Azir can gtfo in an instant. Azir can chunk towers super fast, Cass is like any other mage in that regard.

UPfreelyMar 15, 20151 votes

you're examples are very irrelevant though, you're just glossing over champions not looking at what they do. i mean you can make some very poor comparisons this way; gankplank walks up to me and autoattacks me and i die and skarner walks up to me and auto attacks me and i die are both very similar play patterns but quite obviously very different champions.

some better comparisons would be comparing alistar combo and malph ult, or maybe compare amumus play pattern to blitzcrank. "they hook me with long range skillshots and then burst me and i die." or maybe rengar and kha'zix "they jump on me and i die" these arnt the greatest examples but i hope they get the point across. it just feels like you're ignoring too much about your examples to prove a point... which isn't backed by good evidence as a result...

AuryielMar 15, 20151 votes

You say that like you did it in your own post XD

junglerboy16Mar 15, 20151 votes

Nidalee is the better version of Lee in every way. She has better damage, better scaling, and actually has better mobility (who needs wards?).

Both their kits are also really annoying to play against and regardless of their strength I don't like playing against them ever.