Honestly, I've never dreaded a lane so much in my life.
I dont even want to speak about my dreaded last game
of flashing on to a quinn as darius with phage, and her not ever using flash to get away because her knockback is too good.
It transitioned into me using flash to run away only to get chased down by her high movement speed ult.
I swear top lane is so fucked
JackMcSnipeyz17 votesI feel the same way when im playing a melee toplaner against darius
Aeszarck1 votesI feel the same way when im playing a melee toplaner against darius
Well yeah, top lane has lots of "class counters." Juggernauts (stat bullies) generally counter other melees but have a tough time against ranged. Assassins have a tough time against everyone except for ranged. Skirmishers don't really have clear rules; Yasuo is an anti-ranged champion who fails against most other melees, Fiora, Riven, and Tryndamere are lane bullies who aren't too bad against ranged, Ekko is good against ranged and decent against melee, Master Yi has a mostly terrible laning phase, and Jax does decently against most champions except juggernauts. Mages do pretty well versus everyone (only decent against assassins) except they eventually have a ton of trouble with tanks. Marksmen and AD Casters do well against most classes, all right against mages, and falter against divers and assassins. Tanks do pretty well against all classes except juggernauts and early/late-game marksmen. Divers do well against marksmen and assassins.
Jet Sett2 votesUnless it's someone that out sustains him early like 
Only Play Darius1 votesAt least you can stay away from Darius and farm
JackMcSnipeyz2 votes[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oLAEipaX,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2016-10-18T03:35:58.544+0000)
At least you can stay away from Darius and farm
The only way to stay away from darius and farm is if he is mercifull enough to not go balls in on you.
Melledoneus1 votesYeah, a farmed Darius is scary. The real way to beat Darius in the top lane as a melee is farm under turret and help your team out and hope he doesn't follow you. With some good CC and a high damage carry he'll fall pretty quick.
Chamuel857 votesOne might suggest to not flash onto Quinn when her knockback is up... or Gnar when his Hop is up.
Rivuo2 votesOne might suggest to not flash onto Quinn when her knockback is up... or Gnar when his Hop is up.
If you arent closing the gap they will never use their knockback / hop
Therefore = you getting poked until the dawn of day
Chamuel852 votesSome laning phases are going to be awful and likely require jungler intervention. What's worse though? Flashing in only to have them escape with a 15 second cooldown (blowing your 5 minute cooldown) and gained nothing. Still probably getting poked down all day. or not blowing your flash. Saving them 50 mana or whatever (remember Quinn knockback also Valor marks you which means she'll do ADDITIONAL damage) or save it to escape death. Since flashing in doesn't really help anyway for the things your post is complaining about.
Tychusfindlay9196 votesIf you arent closing the gap they will never use their knockback / hop
Therefore = you getting poked until the dawn of day
Apprehend range is the same as quinn's auto range. With phage, you can create windows where you can apprehend her.
After apprehending, you have two options. W > Q > disengage for what is usually an excellent trade, or Walk behind her while the pull is disabling her so that you are between her and her turret. If she tries to knockback she doesnt go far and she only ends up pushing herself into your wave. The second scenario is when you want to allin her.
Alternatively, you can cry on the boards. Quinn isnt anywhere near as hard as say jayce.
Also, god help the quinn if you activate your E when she tries to vault you because her dash knockback is interruptible and apprehend is an interrupting/non-cancellable pull...
Pyrithegethon3 votesApprehenr range is not the same range as her auto. His is spell range, not auto attack range. Do a custom game and have a quinn auto you from max range then use apprehend on her, it wont reach.
Tychusfindlay9192 votesApprehenr range is not the same range as her auto. His is spell range, not auto attack range. Do a custom game and have a quinn auto you from max range then use apprehend on her, it wont reach.
Huh? 550 is 550
Also, I made a mistake, quinn range is 525. Even if there is some weird spell range thing, I think that fact outta secure that if she can aa you can apprehend.
Pyrithegethon1 votesIf you would like me to show you in a custom game that a Darius cant E a quinn or sivir if they are at their max auto range I will show you.
Tychusfindlay9191 votesIf you would like me to show you in a custom game that a Darius cant E a quinn or sivir if they are at their max auto range I will show you.
A little search on the wiki and I see what youre talking about.
I'm pretty sure that most pulls, darius included, is from the edge of the caster's hitbox, not the center of his model. I dont mind testing it tonight though since I dont have school tomorrow.
If not, ninja tabi phage rush should allow for enough gapclose to land apprehends since every adc top lane has to build damage first (otherwise theyre useless).
Ariel the Cruel3 votesAA range and skill range aren't necessarily the same, though they use the same unit of measure. AA's are counted from the edge of a champion's hit-box to the edge of another's. Some skills also do this, but most measure from the center of the caster's hit-box to the center of the target's. A cursory check on the wiki states:
The difference is approximately 100 (i.e. 550 autoattack range is roughly 650 casting range)
Apprehend could be one of those edge-to-edge skills, in which case you would be correct. If it follows normal skill rules though, then it wouldn't reach. Personally, I've never tried getting close enough to test it. (>_>)
Critmaster Garen2 votesOne might suggest to not flash onto Quinn when her knockback is up... or Gnar when his Hop is up.
its always up. they dont have a reason to expend it other than to escape an engage attempt.
Chamuel851 votesMaking Flashing on to them as a melee without other gap closers all the more useless.
Critmaster Garen1 votesMaking Flashing on to them as a melee without other gap closers all the more useless.
true, but whats your other option?
you can try an agressive engagement or you get bullied out of lane by auto attack poke. its a lose/lose situation. hence why ranged vs. melee matchup is busted. in all cases its entirely onesided.
Chamuel851 votesIf you want to look solely at laning phase, sure it's in favor of the ranged. It is similar with melee vs ranged supports. It's punishable, but there are advantages that melee supports bring (Alistar/Braum). I've seen sooooo many team comps loose because they picked all ranged damage dealers. When they are engaged on, they go poof. They have to win and snowball early. Failing that. It generally goes your way later.
However,
Tychusfindlay9191 votesIf you want to look solely at laning phase, sure it's in favor of the ranged. It is similar with melee vs ranged supports. It's punishable, but there are advantages that melee supports bring (Alistar/Braum). I've seen sooooo many team comps loose because they picked all ranged damage dealers. When they are engaged on, they go poof. They have to win and snowball early. Failing that. It generally goes your way later.
However,
- Farm under tower (helps limit the loss. You'll still be behind)
- Most ranges are squishy. Much more squishy than their melee counter parts so late game you'll be stronger if you didn't fall behind too far
- Jungler help if you're farming under tower, they should be pushed up. Making tastey easy ganks.
Well its sad because ranged beat melee in lane phase and ranged adc items are also better late game. When the hell can melees reliably shine? Only in mid game? And here we are wondering why the LCS this year has seen way more ranged than say last year where juggernauts and tanks dominated the field.
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oLAEipaX,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-17T18:15:05.751+0000)
true, but whats your other option?
You accept that Garen is a terribly-designed character with a fundamentally weak kit and find a different champion to play.
S0kaX6 votesDownvoted for the title
Dehitay6 voteslmao, it would be Darius you're playing when complaining about ranged champs. Omg, Darius is weak against his only weakness! This isn't fair!
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesdarius weakness is that he isn't a good team fighter.
well tbh every champion that is countered by range is bad in team fights anyway. except maybe malphite
Dehitay3 votesdarius weakness is that he isn't a good team fighter.
well tbh every champion that is countered by range is bad in team fights anyway. except maybe malphite
WTF? Both of those statements are incredibly wrong. Darius actually does better in teamfights than top lane cause in 1v1, his opponent can afford to run away from him. In a teamfight, somebody has to engage him. Generally, he'll run into the middle of the whole fight, take some damage, nail a bunch of people with his Q, heal it all back up, and then jump on the weakest enemy in range, max his passive and ult, then just keep ult killing everybody else who can't get away from him. If that's being bad at teamfights, I hate to think what kind of horribly overpowered champions you think are good at teamfights.
The same holds true for any champ countered by range as well. Cause in a teamfight, the entire team can't run away from them, they're garunteed an engage. And those kind of champions are strong once they engage which is why they have to have a weakness like range.
Ariel the Cruel2 votesarius actually does better in teamfights than top lane cause in 1v1, his opponent can afford to run away from him.
Almost ironically, Darius thrives in siege comps where he just sits on his ass and does nothing because nobody wants to go through him to reach his team. XD
LugiaPaladin4 votesflashing on to a quinn as darius
transitioned into me using flash to run away
Which is it.
DunkinNoobs3 votesI will lane against any ranged cancer before I lane against 
. Those ranged guys aren't 100-0ing me at lvl 6 with just 
.
PermabannedGaren3 votesHonestly, I've never dreaded a lane so much in my life.
I dont even want to speak about my dreaded last game
of flashing on to a quinn as darius with phage, and her not ever using flash to get away because her knockback is too good.
It transitioned into me using flash to run away only to get chased down by her high movement speed ult.
I swear top lane is so fucked
Yeah man, playing Wukong into Darius and losing half of my life if I think "Hey maybe I'd like to get this creep" to his incredibly high melee damage is way more fun, lol.
Quinn isn't a problem the way Gnar or Kennen are, and the pick has drawbacks. You got countered. Be a man and deal with it.
Rivuo1 votesYeah man, playing Wukong into Darius and losing half of my life if I think "Hey maybe I'd like to get this creep" to his incredibly high melee damage is way more fun, lol.
Quinn isn't a problem the way Gnar or Kennen are, and the pick has drawbacks. You got countered. Be a man and deal with it.
Its not about quinn, its about how uneven ranged vs melee is. By the time you close the gap you are so low that nothing can be done about it and eventually end up burning flash just to run away while they still have their CC and flash
I know Gnar and kennen are huge problems.. those are 2 champs im referring to too
PermabannedGaren1 votesIts not about quinn, its about how uneven ranged vs melee is. By the time you close the gap you are so low that nothing can be done about it and eventually end up burning flash just to run away while they still have their CC and flash
I know Gnar and kennen are huge problems.. those are 2 champs im referring to too
Then don't close the gap? Accept that you might have to back earlier than you'd want to. Because you're playing an immobile slow fat sack of shit into a ranged top laner. Unless you play much better than them, you're going to lose lane. Just like champions like Wukong or Yasuo have to accept that unless they are much better than Darius they will lose lane.
Talisid2 votesWhat are they going to do about it? Nerf every ranged champion?
Give every single melee champion a gap closer?
Since the beginning of the 1-1-2-J meta there has always been a lot of badly disadvantaged 1v1 matchups. There's really not much you can do about it.
When you try to design a melee bruiser that can win a 1v1 against a ranged champion you get overloaded garbage like Irelia, who has been being nerfed since release and has managed to stay relevant all this time.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesNerf every ranged champion?
Give every single melee champion a gap closer?
When you try to design a melee bruiser that can win a 1v1 against a ranged champion you get overloaded garbage like Irelia, who has been being nerfed since release and has managed to stay relevant all this time.
I'm just having fun.
Asura Gonza2 votesIf the problem is range...why you dont pick a ranged champ yourself?.
Aeszarck1 votes[{quoted}](name=Asura Gonza,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oLAEipaX,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-10-17T19:26:19.724+0000)
If the problem is range...why you dont pick a ranged champ yourself?.
Or fight the range with melee champions that counter ranged ones, like Zed, Yasuo, Akali, Irelia, Diana, Pantheon, Talon, Fizz, or Rengar. Other champions that work well against ranged ones are Gangplank, Galio, and Cho'Gath. Lots of tanks have hard lanes initially, but they gradually become impossible to poke down and can fight toe-to-toe with the ranged champion and win, such as Malphite and Rammus.
Swiftstrike41 votesMy issue with the range champions going top at the moment (
mostly) is that it feels like their early advantage in lane against a melee champion never really goes away. It should be that their early offensive advantage declines against the top laner as the game goes one and right not it usually doesn't
They will frequently get a CS advantage, hits on the tower, and make a melee back more often than they would like.
The melee misses XP, the tower could be lost early, and they miss out on Gold. And then when the melee spends time catching up the range champion can roam and pick up a kill. Damage just doesn't drop off early with the flat armor pen items and a competent ranged top laner typically can push their lead.
I will say though, if you are melee champion and still building damage into a matchup against a ranged champion you are really hurting yourself. Damage items are more expensive and don't help you stay in lane. So if you are darius and STILL building black cleaver or triforce against a range champion then you aren't helping your situation.
Now I play 
so I have better sustain in lane than most melee champions and I do eventually outscale the ranged champion in a straight 1v1, so range champions do not bother me too much. I know that if I sit here and farm Ill just kill them eventually. Other melee's though their is no guarantee of that without help from the jungler.
TheHappyReaperz1 votesYou underestimate the power of 
the 
terror that is having your soul ripped from you, the horror of a 
hitting you and dealing half your health, 
thick skin, allowing him to shrug off harass, and, my personal favorite, the lifesteal of an 
Rivuo1 votesMy issue with the range champions going top at the moment (
They will frequently get a CS advantage, hits on the tower, and make a melee back more often than they would like.
The melee misses XP, the tower could be lost early, and they miss out on Gold. And then when the melee spends time catching up the range champion can roam and pick up a kill. Damage just doesn't drop off early with the flat armor pen items and a competent ranged top laner typically can push their lead.
I will say though, if you are melee champion and still building damage into a matchup against a ranged champion you are really hurting yourself. Damage items are more expensive and don't help you stay in lane. So if you are darius and STILL building black cleaver or triforce against a range champion then you aren't helping your situation.
Now I play
Pretty much. Everytime i fight a ranged champ i completely drop my attack build and go straight into armor ( dead mans or somethin ) and guess what?
Now they do more damage than you, and are essentially tankier because they rushed ninja tabi and phage while you were trying to buy armor just to live.
Now darius loses his Q heal because they have phage and walk inside your Q so you never get the Q heal. You used E to close the gap, essentially you're stuck with your W and autos.
Im not saying darius is fair and weak but i think the melee top laners are just fucked.
TheOvermind1 votesThe only way darius ever kills Quinn is by hooking her when she tries to jump. Good luck with that. Basically depends on how predictable the Quinn is.
On my many games on darius I've learned that you need to change your playstyle vs ranged top laners:
Instead of my usual Dorans blade grasp of the undying , flash and ignite setup vs melee , I switched to boots 4 pots, stormraiders, ghost and ignite and ms quints and all In them at level 1. Run at them with ghost, auto, auto w , auto , here they usually flash , but my stormraiders is now activated and I catch up and auto one more time to proc my passive. Drop the ignite (sometimes one more auto is needed) and enjoy first blood.
Rush ninja tabi into youmous vs ad and swifties into maw vs ap.
Assassin darius bitches.
five oh tree 1 votesbasically any dive fighter top will beat any ranged champ, and most juggernauts will shit on most dive fighters. It's like complaining if you picked nasus and lost to pantheon. Well, no shit, that's because pantheon counters him. But try picking pantheon into olaf. You'll want to die after level 6.
RexSaur1 votesA Darius complaining about having to lane against ranged champs
LUL
Death and Doom1 votesat least quinn is kind of meant to be a top. i lost as darius to an ezreal top just because dar's e cant cancel ez blink and he bought iceborn and kited me all day. and late game he didnt fall off like quinn would. ;-;
Ariel the Cruel1 votesI swear top lane is so fucked
How many melee champions do you see bot and mid? I think jungle is the only position with more melees than ranged - and Graves seems determined to fix that.
The Deckowner1 voteshow can u flash onto quinn, then flash away from her?
Rivuo1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oLAEipaX,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2016-10-18T05:22:20.343+0000)
how can u flash onto quinn, then flash away from her?
I said it transitioned into me using flash to run away. as in whenever my flash was up i was using it to run away
The Deckowner1 votesok? you flashed and she got away, that causes 5 minutes later you flash away from her? i mean you are playing darius, probably shouldn't complain.
Rivuo1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oLAEipaX,comment-id=001a00000000,timestamp=2016-10-18T14:40:54.582+0000)
ok? you flashed and she got away, that causes 5 minutes later you flash away from her? i mean you are playing darius, probably shouldn't complain.
Why are you an idiot. I said most melee champs suffer the same situation
Irelia Bot1 votesWhen I play top as any melee champ besides Irelia or Akali in this ranged top meta it is reason enough to just not feel like playing anymore.
I literally have to be a champ that can stick to ranged and take half their health in a combo to not be irrelevant.
You can call Irelia and akali unhealthy but they are just about the only good treatment to the even worse cancer from ranged champs.
Keti1 votesUse da bush
The Yetii Rider1 votesRiot knows the ranged vs melee match top lane is rough and they don't care. They released Gnar understanding that he would auto win top lane and still scale well..