Pantheon is ruining the solo lane experience for many players in solo queue right now

Edgehy··15 votes·3,808 views

He's oppressive, probably the most oppressive laner in the game. He's both anti-melee and anti-ranged and he can tower dive and assist tower dives very early because of his passive. Items like ghostblade, maw and black cleaver give him enough damage at all points in the game to 100-0 squishies so bruiser on pantheon is how he scales into the late game as a pretty scary pick. Armor pen items galore exist, in short this is a big reason for him being strong. Not to mention, he did receive an indirect buff with the dodge/block/blind changes. Thunderlords is also godlike on him and makes his full combo even dumber.

As a champion, his design is amongst the worst. It is toxic and lacks counterplay, Qs you off cooldown and finishes you off when your low. He also brings his semi global ult to the table, which is his most interesting spell but sadly it's accompanied by a bunch of low cooldown, zero decision making point and click nuke and a point and click stun. Please, destroy this champion with nerfs until you rework him. He's honestly almost as bad as laning against Yorick before he received all his nerfs - at least you could all-in Yorick at early levels, you basically have level 1 to all-in pantheon or you proceed to eat spears until he's decided he wants to finish you.

52 Comments

BadmoonBC3 votes

Oh come on dude Pantheon is fine. Not only that but since they took out the crystalline flask/pot start he's way weaker in lane. He's perfect design, strong early, crap late

Ralanr2 votes

It's too extreme for my tastes.

weeaboomer3 votes

Being Qd every time is up is cancer. "but he goes oom" by that time, you're already forced to back. item 2033

Ralanr1 votes

That item sucks for mana imo. Pots were better.

I always went flask and a few mana pots.

Edgehy3 votes

{quoted}

That item sucks for mana imo. Pots were better.

I always went flask and a few mana pots.

It's better than running anything else, not to mention meditation being 70% of a chalice lol

Ralanr1 votes

Kinda sucks that he's forced to use that item early game though.

Edgehy1 votes

{quoted}

Kinda sucks that he's forced to use that item early game though.

Well comparatively that is true but the alternative makes it an easy choice. Besides, I do think corrupting potion is very good and obviously extremelty cost effective.

Ralanr1 votes

Personal preference really. But I don't really go into the maths.

Edgehy3 votes

{quoted}

Oh come on dude Pantheon is fine. Not only that but since they took out the crystalline flask/pot start he's way weaker in lane. He's perfect design, strong early, crap late

No, he's actually pretty good late now. The flat armor pen items make him good at destroying squishies and black cleaver gives him good tank killing stats, not to mention gives him some durability. Then he builds a mixture of steraks, titanic hydra etc and he's actually fairly hard to kill.

His design is far from good. There's nothing good design about a low spammable point and click nuke. His mana concerns are overrated, corruption potion is good on him and meditation in the 2nd tree gives him a lot of mana regen. He doesn't really have mana trouble anymore.

Cenobite Azaziel3 votes

{quoted}

He's oppressive, probably the most oppressive laner in the game. He's both anti-melee and anti-ranged and he can tower dive and assist tower dives very early because of his passive. Items like ghostblade, maw and black cleaver give him enough damage at all points in the game to 100-0 squishies so bruiser on pantheon is how he scales into the late game as a pretty scary pick. Armor pen items galore exist, in short this is a big reason for him being strong. Not to mention, he did receive an indirect buff with the dodge/block/blind changes. Thunderlords is also godlike on him and makes his full combo even dumber.

As a champion, his design is amongst the worst. It is toxic and lacks counterplay, Qs you off cooldown and finishes you off when your low. He also brings his semi global ult to the table, which is his most interesting spell but sadly it's accompanied by a bunch of low cooldown, zero decision making point and click nuke and a point and click stun. Please, destroy this champion with nerfs until you rework him. He's honestly almost as bad as laning against Yorick before he received all his nerfs - at least you could all-in Yorick at early levels, you basically have level 1 to all-in pantheon or you proceed to eat spears until he's decided he wants to finish you.

What are you playing vs him? Fiora?

Edgehy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oL03or5G,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-02-17T22:43:37.878+0000)

What are you playing vs him? Fiora?

Literally anything

Ralanr4 votes

Try DrMundo Irelia or Olaf. They pretty much counter Pantheon.

If you are trying Fiora, then you aren't going to have a fun lane. Pantheon counters her so hard that it's not even funny.

No wait...it's hilarious.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Try DrMundo Irelia or Olaf. They pretty much counter Pantheon.

If you are trying Fiora, then you aren't going to have a fun lane. Pantheon counters her so hard that it's not even funny.

No wait...it's hilarious.

Vladimir Malphite can also counter Pantheon.

An extremely unconventional, yet effective pick against Pantheon is Nunu. You E him all day and heal yourself, preventing Pantheon from poking you down. The only thing that Pantheon has against Nunu is being able to interrupt Nunu's ult during teamfights with his stun.

mogonk3 votes

Malphite, Mundo, Illaoi, Poppy, Olaf.

You're overstating how universally strong Panth is.

He's incredibly strong in his good matchups, but if you pick Malph for example he's not going to be able to kill you and come mid-late game you're far more useful to the team.

Edgehy1 votes

{quoted}

Malphite, Mundo, Illaoi, Poppy, Olaf.

You're overstating how universally strong Panth is.

He's incredibly strong in his good matchups, but if you pick Malph for example he's not going to be able to kill you and come mid-late game you're far more useful to the team.

Malphite Mundo and poppy can feed and still be more useful than 90% of the top laners in this game atm because they become incredibly hard to kill no matter what happens and they simply can't be ignored. I could see Olaf winning but only if Panth tries to fight him at levels 1/2 because Olaf is like the king of level 1/2 cheese. Illaoi? I'm sorry I'm just not seeing it.

And these are 5 champions out of how many top laners? If you think 5 champions who can do well/survive him balances him out, no it doesn't. He has a 56% winrate and his playrate is going up each patch. People in high elo have been acknowledging his power for a few patches but over the last few he's just gotten out of control.

And the biggest thing is his gameplay is so toxic as a solo laner, he just shouldn't exist. It's just spam a point and click nuke on enemy with no decision making, go in when they are low and finish them. That isn't gameplay and the play style is incredibly oppressive. He needs to be changed, he needs to have his kit remade aside from his ult and maybe his E because the rest just make him an oppressive mess of a design that is completely unfun to lane against and you feel helpless when fighting him because you can't even safely farm under tower against him, hell you can't even be near him under tower.

Ralanr1 votes

His ult and passive should stay in some form because they are both unique to him.

I agree that his kit needs a rework. Considering how they gave Shen more defined strengths and weaknesses, I don't see them ignoring Pantheon.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Part of the problem is that the games rarely get to mid-late game. Pantheon's reliable damage, reliable CC, and reliable tower dives means he snowballs crazy fast this season. Combine this with his ult and he can take ignite to cheese you early game while still being able to spread his lead across the map more efficiently than most top laners.

Ralanr1 votes

So he should be punished because of the meta? If they screw his early game now, then he'll be way worse off in a slow meta.

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oL03or5G,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2016-02-18T04:35:16.850+0000)

Part of the problem is that the games rarely get to mid-late game. Pantheon's reliable damage, reliable CC, and reliable tower dives means he snowballs crazy fast this season. Combine this with his ult and he can take ignite to cheese you early game while still being able to spread his lead across the map more efficiently than most top laners.

Oh, I never said Nasus is good for this meta. He definitely isn't, however he's still a very viable option if you're just looking to not feed, especially with his W and E on/against high AD team comps.

YouPoro3 votes

Irelia Chogath Gangplank Trundle Fiora Malphite idk why people have the misconception that you always have to win lane, pantheon doesn't have a ultimate to use during lane phase at 6 unless hes ulting back into lane, his mana costs are high and he becomes a stun bot late game, just outsustain and outscale now obv if you fight him 1 v1 with all his cds you're prob not going to win those trades early on.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Riven

Edgehy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oL03or5G,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-02-17T22:02:34.514+0000)

Riven

He beats riven...

He's like, a known riven counter :/

Dominick Destine4 votes

Riven is far more oppressive than Pantheon ever was.

Riven doesn't even have mana, she is not gated by anything.

WadeWilson13372 votes

Riven is garbage right now...

Slamurai Jack2 votes

Finally, a QQ thread about a champion that actually deserves it. Pantheon is fine right now? Pantheon has a 56% winrate right now in top lane and has basically no counterplay as a melee champion other than getting denied hard for the first 10 minutes and hoping your jungler ganks for you.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Just up the mana cost and cooldown on his spear. That's probably enough. Maybe lower the damage a bit...

He's clearly strong right now, his win rate is speaking to that. I don't find him to be impossible though. Laning against him is annoying unfortunately. Plenty of other champions cause that same problem though.

Ralanr1 votes

Wait till late. He falls off no matter what. Unless you surrender at 20.

chezwickcheese1 votes

Just stall the game until late game and then he falls off pretty hard. That or play a tanky team comp.

Edgehy2 votes

{quoted}

Just stall the game until late game and then he falls off pretty hard. That or play a tanky team comp.

Neither of these things are easily applicable and as I noted pantheon is much better late game as he transforms more into a bruiser that can still quickly destroy a squishy

Ralanr1 votes

What bruiser can't quickly destroy a squishy?

Edgehy2 votes

{quoted}

What bruiser can't quickly destroy a squishy?

Several come late game actually

Ralanr1 votes

That's bad for the bruiser actually. Literally anything squishy should die quickly to a bruiser that can get close to them.

Edgehy1 votes

{quoted}

That's bad for the bruiser actually. Literally anything squishy should die quickly to a bruiser that can get close to them.

Most squishy champions by late game have enough damage to kill a bruiser before they even get in range of them with even the slightest peel.

Ralanr1 votes

But if they get in range, then they are destroyed.

Lux is SO HOT1 votes

I agree

charcharmunro1 votes

Singed pretty much counters him the moment he buys armor.

Lady Donatella1 votes

Try playing poppy. Every time he tries to all in one me I just use my w and burst him down.

Vanic9981 votes

Play a mage. With a mage's long range, Pantheon should have no way of reaching you.

WadeWilson13371 votes

Pantheon falls off so late. The only reason his playrate is high is because no one was playing him for a while and it seems like people just forgot altogether how pantheon works. Hes strong early game so he wins lane and runs away with the game. If you think Pantheon is oppressive top lane, you should look at bot and mid. Ezreal Lucian KogMaw absolutely dominate bot lane right now. Zed Leblanc Lux Talon and these 4 fucks are so disgusting that if you you basically cant blind pick anything.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Pantheon falls off so late. The only reason his playrate is high is because no one was playing him for a while and it seems like people just forgot altogether how pantheon works. Hes strong early game so he wins lane and runs away with the game. If you think Pantheon is oppressive top lane, you should look at bot and mid. Ezreal Lucian KogMaw absolutely dominate bot lane right now. Zed Leblanc Lux Talon and these 4 fucks are so disgusting that if you you basically cant blind pick anything.

Honestly I find Riven to be far more oppressive than Pantheon has ever been.

Against Pantheon I just start cloth + 4 pots, try to survive early, and outscale him since he falls off so hard late and many champions can outduel Pantheon once they get their items. This strategy works with any champion, especially those that have natural sustain, like Vladimir DrMundo Nasus since their natural sustain on top of the 4 pots means that they can outsustain Pantheon's poke. Even if your champion has no natural sustain, the cloth helps since it allows your champion to have armor to better withstand Pantheon's harass early game. And there is rarely a champion that can't transform that cloth into an useful item.

Against Riven, however... Unless I am playing Malphite or Mundo, no matter what I do against this bitch, she will always get to a point where she can outduel me (because she buys lots of armor penetration and lifesteal). Also, she is oppressive early, not as much as Pantheon, but depending of the champion that I am using, I will usually have a hard time. For example, if I am playing Vlad, I have to play extremely safe because an aggressive Riven will take half of my life early and there is nothing I can do about that. To make the matters worse, she is mobile. Ganking her is hard, you can't chase her but she can chase you (unless you are playing an hypermobile champion like Fizz or Lee Sin). I just find her to be much worse than Pantheon in that regard and I don't know why people complain more about Pantheon.

Edgehy2 votes

{quoted}

Pantheon falls off so late. The only reason his playrate is high is because no one was playing him for a while and it seems like people just forgot altogether how pantheon works. Hes strong early game so he wins lane and runs away with the game. If you think Pantheon is oppressive top lane, you should look at bot and mid. Ezreal Lucian KogMaw absolutely dominate bot lane right now. Zed Leblanc Lux Talon and these 4 fucks are so disgusting that if you you basically cant blind pick anything.

No, his play style isn't complex. He spams Q off cooldown on you, he gets his passive reset on every 4th auto or when he uses his stun and at 15% HP, his E passive allows his Q to crit. He's simple. Playing him is simple. His match ups are incredibly binary and that's bad design by definition.

Milodic Mellodi1 votes

Try playing as Cho'Gath in Jungle against him...not the greatest idea, unless you can convince your allies to countergank.

WoonStruck1 votes

Pick Nasus. Use 54 armor runepage. Start cloth4. Proceed to afk farm.

Edgehy1 votes

{quoted}

Pick Nasus. Use 54 armor runepage. Start cloth5. Proceed to afk farm.

That's not a very effective start, you're better off with a mixture of health and armor.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

That's not a very effective start, you're better off with a mixture of health and armor.

Actually its a very effective start. You can cs in the middle of Riven's harass even and it does nothing. She'll take more damage from creeps than you take.

Tell me what about is is ineffective when you're staying near full HP. Having more health doesn't do anything for sustain. If you can already sustain yourself, make that sustain more valuable via more defenses.

Build item 3024 into item 3067, since your goal is to afk farm. If you can easily farm more, finish FH, if not, finish Spirit Visage and play it safe. Another important thing is to never, ever buy a sheen item unless you are FAR behind (to make up for lack of stacks). Sheen items account for less than 1/8 of your damage later and make you far squishier.

Edgehy1 votes

{quoted}

Actually its a very effective start. You can cs in the middle of Riven's harass even and it does nothing. She'll take more damage from creeps than you take.

Tell me what about is is ineffective when you're staying near full HP. Having more health doesn't do anything for sustain. If you can already sustain yourself, make that sustain more valuable via more defenses.

Build item 3024 into item 3067, since your goal is to afk farm. If you can easily farm more, finish FH, if not, finish Spirit Visage and play it safe. Another important thing is to never, ever buy a sheen item unless you are FAR behind (to make up for lack of stacks). Sheen items account for less than 1/8 of your damage later and make you far squishier.

Each point of resistance is better with each point of HP, stacking resists or starting heavy resists with no HP items makes your overall effective HP low compared to a mixture of HP and armor. A heavy armor page isn't bad, just starting cloth 4 with it probably is. Go somethig like d-shield or ruby crystal start and the armor page becomes far more effective.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

Each point of resistance is better with each point of HP, stacking resists or starting heavy resists with no HP items makes your overall effective HP low compared to a mixture of HP and armor. A heavy armor page isn't bad, just starting cloth 4 with it probably is. Go somethig like d-shield or ruby crystal start and the armor page becomes far more effective.

Sustain is equal to HP. Sustain is better over the long term, HP in the short. Considering how much less damage you're taking vs Riven or Pantheon, each Q you make is effectively making you tankier and tankier against their harass. Meanwhile with HP, you are not getting as effective sustain early because the HP is hardly relevant compared to the sustain you have with high armor.

Full armor runepages are standard on Nasus vs heavy AD harass.

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

Each point of resistance is better with each point of HP, stacking resists or starting heavy resists with no HP items makes your overall effective HP low compared to a mixture of HP and armor. A heavy armor page isn't bad, just starting cloth 4 with it probably is. Go somethig like d-shield or ruby crystal start and the armor page becomes far more effective.

4 pots are effectively 600 HP. And with that much armor, it's not like Panth will burst you down instantly, it'll be harass. So armor+4pots is one of the best choices. Far better than ruby 2 pots by any means. Doran shield is kay because the passive also applies to spears, but only one pot means you really lack sustain. So you need TP and to back relatively early and use your TP just because your starter lacks potions. Overall armor 4pots is the safest starter.

About panth.. his winrate is indeed slightly alarming. But we have to look at him how he is. Extremely predictable point & click low range champion. Yes, one of the best in-lane counters to several champions, but falls off incredibly badly, lacks defensive stats and is very vulnerable to CC. Even if his damage can be pretty good lategame with black cleaver youmuus, he's still bad lategame. Whenever you play panth, it's a race to win before you get outscaled too hard. So nerfing him might just as well make him completely useless.

Only Play Darius1 votes

A good pantheon will freeze the lane (pantheon is good at that) and just kill Nasus whenever he comes to farm. Granted you only start seeing this kind of strategy in Gold+, but at that elo Nasus is straight trash to begin with unless you are very good with him, so you can't just use him as a casual counterpick even if it does work out in theory

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oL03or5G,comment-id=00100001,timestamp=2016-02-18T04:29:42.076+0000)

A good pantheon will freeze the lane (pantheon is good at that) and just kill Nasus whenever he comes to farm. Granted you only start seeing this kind of strategy in Gold+, but at that elo Nasus is straight trash to begin with unless you are very good with him, so you can't just use him as a casual counterpick even if it does work out in theory

Actually, I've had no problems playing Nasus into Pantheon in Gold (the point I usually stop playing ranked just for rewards) vs Plats, and occasionally Diamonds in normals. I won 6/8 games with him in ranked last season, got relatively fed in all but one IIRC. I had never played nasus before that. I just wanted someone who could freeze in front of tower comfortably. All you need to know is that you afk farm until level 6, after that, if they engage, WE->Q. They'll think twice about engaging again as you heal up over 100 each Q while you take off 25% of their health.

All of the problems with Nasus atm lie with the game's pacing. He's still able to comfortably lane vs melee ADs though, especially those with mana. He struggles against those with armor pen and high DPS/Burst, such as Wu or Darius, but only if they're played well.

More from Gameplay

More by Edgehy