Please do something about Bruiser Yi

Edgehy·Feb 26, 2016·66 votes·4,326 views

I am fine with Yi doing lots of damage when he builds damage

I am fine with Yi being really durable when he builds more defensive

I am not fine with Yi still outputting ADC levels of dps with just devourer + any AS/on-hit item then building steraks into randuins/deadmans and spirit visage and have 3.5k HP and 150 of both resists, not to mention meditate and steraks shield.

You have nerfed the items above several times and it's time to stop. Champions have really ridiculous interactions with items and sometimes you just need to stop nerfing the items and start nerfing the champions with really abusive interactions with it. Yi is this case.

70 Comments

Yosuke ApperuFeb 26, 201623 votes

It's time they get rid of sated devourer.

TaoistMasterFeb 26, 20161 votes

or just rework this feral flare 2.0 again...

I hate to scrap ideas but the farming AS and onhit jungle item has proven problematic in many ways.

The Yetii RiderFeb 26, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Taoist Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3X0ZJkeZ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-02-26T15:42:56.836+0000)

or just rework this feral flare 2.0 again...

I hate to scrap ideas but the farming AS and onhit jungle item has proven problematic in many ways.

It is necessary to make farming a viable jungle strategy. If all farming gets you is gold, then it is pretty much always going to be inferior to ganking, since ganking gets kills/assists/objectives.

warmcorntortillaFeb 27, 20161 votes

Sooo... successfully ganking and putting pressure on the map SHOULD be superior to afk farming! You should not get rewarded for doing what a bot could do in your game, then come back 20 minutes later and just dive squishies with no recourse. Or, at least, not as rewarded as somebody actually, you know, playing the game.

The Yetii RiderFeb 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sooo... successfully ganking and putting pressure on the map SHOULD be superior to afk farming! You should not get rewarded for doing what a bot could do in your game, then come back 20 minutes later and just dive squishies with no recourse. Or, at least, not as rewarded as somebody actually, you know, playing the game.

It is a triangle.

Ganking counters Farming (As you said, there should be a reward if you put map pressure out. That reward is the map pressure itself, not you just outscaling your opponent because your opponent has no options)

Control counters Ganking (If you gank too much, you will get plenty of gold and lane pressure, but unless you start taxing lanes you will fall very behind in CS if your opponent just steals all your camps. This transitions into the mid game, where a Control Jungler will hoard objectives like dragon and herald, while his team catches up in gold from your early pressure, and he wins)

Farming counters Control (You can't counterjungle if your opponent clears faster than you, duels better than you and is never out ganking lanes).

If Farming is not unique and has no power, then Control will always be the default strongest strategy unless Riot flat out nerfs it until it doesn't counter ganking anymore (like nerfing Nunu in S2, the introduction of the wolf smite buff, and the addition of Chilling Smite to make ganks more guaranteed to get kills).

By making Farming actually a viable strategy, Riot can let Control junglers run rampant without making Ganking junglers too overbearing. You have to balance all three as a unit, you can't address each one individually.

JasiwelFeb 27, 20162 votes

I think removing its capacity to gain stacks from champion kills would help the issues. There needs to be strategic consequence for investing in a Devourer-based hyper carry jungler - giving them a hand-out for ganking doesn't help that. Scuttle granting 2 stacks is also stupidly generous - he already gives vision and is contested enough without Devourer in games.

They could also slap Yi's E passive ratio to require his needing to buy actual AD items.

If not, then Sated needs to be re-examined.

Arsenic SulfurFeb 27, 20164 votes

Then the Feral Flare situation would happen again. They gave out the stacks on kill to make sure the jungler had a reason to gank rather than just farm.

JasiwelFeb 27, 20161 votes

Yeah, that's definitely true. I'm just trying to promote greater decision making for players before the game even starts. In my opinion, that was one of the redeeming qualities of the old Feral Flare, even if that is also what led to its downfall. Players had to decide if they wanted a lower jungling presence for stronger post-laning potential, which created larger windows for stronger early-midgame junglers to gank without concern for a countergank.

What if they required certain ratios on Devourer to make it deal it's crazy damage? I don't think the problem is necessarily Devourer in terms of an on-hit Atk Speed Jungling item, but mostly that it doesn't seem to require anything other than farm to function.

XeroKimoFeb 26, 20162 votes

If they got rid of sated and returned unlimited stacks again, expect the afk jungler stacking devourer to return.

YumaS2AstralFeb 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If they got rid of sated and returned unlimited stacks again, expect the afk jungler stacking devourer to return.

Devourer had unlimited stacks before... but since it started with very few stacks and had no other effects other than the on-hit magic damage and no other stats other than the attack speed, this item was pretty shitty.

TheOvermindFeb 27, 20161 votes

Rage blade has to go too, it interacts way too well with certain champions.jax xin yi etc shame champions like kogmaw have to stop using just because a bunch of champs are abusing it

Yosuke ApperuFeb 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rage blade has to go too, it interacts way too well with certain champions.jax xin yi etc shame champions like kogmaw have to stop using just because a bunch of champs are abusing it

In general it just gives way too high of a power spike.

SwiftKitten88Feb 26, 20165 votes

Yi isnt the issue.. its the fact that that made item 3931 and item 3124

SelflessTeammateFeb 26, 20163 votes

Yeah, I think the people who say drop Sated Devourer are kind of missing the point that it was fine for the most part, and fulfills its purpose pretty well with the necessary cap. But, then they threw Rageblade into the mix to really amp up auto-attacking junglers, and gave them a freaking stupid amount of splash damage to go with it.

Even as a Master Yi player, I think it's a little too much, and also a little too linear, which kills some of the fun. I mean, it's clearly the best path (you at least had choices before, you could go for a Zeal item, Youmuu's, Bork, even Frozen Mallet, but whatever, you still had options immediately after Devourer), and anything you get after those items is just fluff. You can of course mention any fast auto-attacker, like Jax, Xin Zhao, and even Aatrox as culprits in making them incredibly strong with the combination, but I just don't like that it's the jungler combination for anyone with a half-decent auto attack.

Insomniac KillerFeb 26, 20164 votes

I think removing sated devourer would be a big mistake because there are a lot of junglers that benefit from that and getting sated is something to strive for during the mid-jungling phase.

I think maybe a solution to nerfing Yi's mid-to-late game domination without making him useless would be removing the Q-resetting, reducing the length of his ULT, and/or removing the slow-immunity of his ULT.

RespectPlusFeb 26, 20161 votes

Maybe they should rework his passive. The current one is too strong with Sated Devourer.

UncertaintyFeb 26, 20161 votes

The double auto doesn't stack with Sated Devorour

Celestial Lion12Feb 26, 20162 votes

yeah it does

Auz the RipperFeb 26, 20161 votes

The Reds specifically disabled it before Sated was even released. If it's interacting now it's a bug.

However, I think they can trigger at the same time.

UncertaintyFeb 26, 20161 votes

Additionally, effects that cause you to attack more than once will only be counted once (i.e. Ranger's Focus.png Ranger's Focus, Double Strike.png Double Strike and Lightslinger.png Lightslinger) - you cannot increase the frequency that Phantom Hit will occur.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sated_Devourer

Viperjcs1985Feb 26, 20164 votes

Yi is one of those champs where you pray the entire enemy team forgets you exist so you can kill someone. Any CC and it is lights out or disengage time.

PROJECT KatarìnaFeb 27, 20164 votes

If you seen full AD yi you'll still prob complain about it.

EdgehyFeb 27, 20162 votes

At least full AD Yi blows up when you focus him

l MinimumWage lFeb 26, 20163 votes

Unfortunately when it comes to looking at favored champs, Riot prefers to nerf the items slightly and call it balance meanwhile other champions struggle more in the process. Back in season 2 or 3 Akali was all the rage and she needed a blatant nerf because after her first core item hextech gunblade, she would run rampant and 100-0 forcing the early surrender. Can you guess what Riot did? Kayle and jax suffered big time.

Besides, if they're actually gonna touch the problem champ, expect something like -3 AD after an entire season.

XTheLastRancherXFeb 26, 20163 votes

If you can't CC Yi... then you are the problem. Fin.

EdgehyFeb 26, 20166 votes

{quoted}

If you can't CC Yi... then you are the problem. Fin.

CCing a 3.5k hp bruiser with 150 of both resists plus meditate and an ability that gives him insta backline dive pressure while making him untargetable and giving him the potential to outplay CC. Then there's meditate. Then there's being a good player and not just charging in because you can and waiting for key cc to be used.

KnyronFeb 26, 20163 votes

Devourer has no place in this game.

Only Play DariusFeb 26, 20164 votes

Leave Sated devourer alone. Most of its users have piss-poor early game ganks and once you start climbing in elo you start fighting teams that will actively ward your jungle and take your camps or even kill you when you're trying to get stacks.

WutsKrakenFeb 27, 20161 votes

Udyr Jax TahmKench XinZhao have very strong early ganks

Only Play DariusFeb 27, 20163 votes

XinZhao the main exception Udyr only really strong if you didn't ward, he has to walk up and slap you Jax is squishy early and liable to get killed in the gank TahmKench what are you doing building dev on him

TheVishualFeb 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I am fine with Yi doing lots of damage when he builds damage

I am fine with Yi being really durable when he builds more defensive

I am not fine with Yi still outputting ADC levels of dps with just devourer + any AS/on-hit item then building steraks into randuins/deadmans and spirit visage and have 3.5k HP and 150 of both resists, not to mention meditate and steraks shield.

You have nerfed the items above several times and it's time to stop. Champions have really ridiculous interactions with items and sometimes you just need to stop nerfing the items and start nerfing the champions with really abusive interactions with it. Yi is this case.

Sounds like you let yi farm for 35 minutes and then got dumped on. If your team has control of drag and rift herald he wont even get devourer (let alone other items) until super late and be starved for items.

Yi is like the easiest jungler to counter jungler early game; if you get him behind he can't farm his jungle and you instawin the game. People just try to play other farmer junglers vs Yi which is stupid because he outscales in a similar way as tryndamere

EdgehyFeb 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like you let yi farm for 35 minutes and then got dumped on. If your team has control of drag and rift herald he wont even get devourer (let alone other items) until super late and be starved for items.

You make it sound as if it takes 35 minutes to get sated. You make it sound as if Yi needs 35 minutes worth of farm to be productive. You make it sound as if Yi hasn't ganked top to secure rift and bot to secure dragons. He can gank and his ganks with red buff aren't bad because he does a lot of damage. Good players know how to make it to their power spikes on champions. Yi gets a big power spike at 6 and almost no jungler can duel him at that point save for being fed. Yi isn't some AFK farming hyper scaler who needs time, he can take things into his own hands and enhance his scaling relatively quickly regardless of what he builds.

Yi is like the easiest jungler to counter jungler early game; if you get him behind he can't farm his jungle and you instawin the game. People just try to play other farmer junglers vs Yi which is stupid because he outscales in a similar way as tryndamere

Why do people think counter jungling is still good? Any smart jungler knows how to avoid being counter jungled and I'll tell you how: start your buff instead of gromp/crugs then go to the other side of the map, do a small camp and use your trinket for an entrance to your other buff, then when doing the buff, position yourself to be by the other entrance to see if anyone is coming. This makes counter jungling nearly impossible unless you predict this path and if you take this path to attack the jungler as an opposing jungler, you risk falling behind yourself since they've gone on the opposite side of their nap while you had to spend time crossing the map, not getting camps/levels and they did. The only answer to this is starting the opposite side of them but you dick your top laner over heavily doing this. Very few champions can afford to start without a leash and the ones that can (shaco/Udyr) are champions a smart jungler would know to expect invades from anyway and would likely communicate to their team to help ward early to catch an intruder. And another thing, counter jungling properly is hard too, very few people are good at it.

And last but not least, Yi has an incredibly fast clear time and stays relatively healthy in his jungle. Not every game of Yi jungler features an opposing farm based jungler. And once he gets red buff and level 4, he can duel most junglers anyway not named Lee, Elise, Nidalee or Xin.

TheVishualFeb 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You make it sound as if it takes 35 minutes to get sated. You make it sound as if Yi needs 35 minutes worth of farm to be productive. You make it sound as if Yi hasn't ganked top to secure rift and bot to secure dragons. He can gank and his ganks with red buff aren't bad because he does a lot of damage. Good players know how to make it to their power spikes on champions. Yi gets a big power spike at 6 and almost no jungler can duel him at that point save for being fed. Yi isn't some AFK farming hyper scaler who needs time, he can take things into his own hands and enhance his scaling relatively quickly regardless of what he builds.

Why do people think counter jungling is still good? Any smart jungler knows how to avoid being counter jungled and I'll tell you how: start your buff instead of gromp/crugs then go to the other side of the map, do a small camp and use your trinket for an entrance to your other buff, then when doing the buff, position yourself to be by the other entrance to see if anyone is coming. This makes counter jungling nearly impossible unless you predict this path and if you take this path to attack the jungler as an opposing jungler, you risk falling behind yourself since they've gone on the opposite side of their nap while you had to spend time crossing the map, not getting camps/levels and they did. The only answer to this is starting the opposite side of them but you dick your top laner over heavily doing this. Very few champions can afford to start without a leash and the ones that can (shaco/Udyr) are champions a smart jungler would know to expect invades from anyway and would likely communicate to their team to help ward early to catch an intruder. And another thing, counter jungling properly is hard too, very few people are good at it.

And last but not least, Yi has an incredibly fast clear time and stays relatively healthy in his jungle. Not every game of Yi jungler features an opposing farm based jungler. And once he gets red buff and level 4, he can duel most junglers anyway not named Lee, Elise, Nidalee or Xin.

Counter jungling is still super strong... there are less wards then there have ever been in any season; are you high? Lol

If you deny dragon and herald yi will not get his devourer til like 25-30 the earliest, and by then he's underfed and been farming his jg while you are ganking his lanes and snowballing the game in your favor

This is a snowball meta and yi is a late game champ; if you let him farm to full build you deserve to lose

SkiasFeb 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like you let yi farm for 35 minutes and then got dumped on. If your team has control of drag and rift herald he wont even get devourer (let alone other items) until super late and be starved for items.

Yi is like the easiest jungler to counter jungler early game; if you get him behind he can't farm his jungle and you instawin the game. People just try to play other farmer junglers vs Yi which is stupid because he outscales in a similar way as tryndamere

Unless he hunts you and gets stacks off of you. His midgame is amazing.

Lady HammerlockFeb 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like you let yi farm for 35 minutes and then got dumped on. If your team has control of drag and rift herald he wont even get devourer (let alone other items) until super late and be starved for items.

Yi is like the easiest jungler to counter jungler early game; if you get him behind he can't farm his jungle and you instawin the game. People just try to play other farmer junglers vs Yi which is stupid because he outscales in a similar way as tryndamere

not really wa good yi will alpha strike whatever high early dmg spell you have and can meditate correctly the issue is a lot of jungles are more bursty then consistent if a spell caster met yi and he dodged then well they'll die because he can output dmg consistently

RespectPlusFeb 26, 20161 votes

Come on, Yi doesn't need nerfs, he's the same for years, Yi just got a bit stronger because of new items.

Sated Devourer is what NEEDS to be changed.

EdgehyFeb 26, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Come on, Yi doesn't need nerfs, he's the same for years, Yi just got a bit stronger because of new items.

Sated Devourer is what NEEDS to be changed.

Nobody is abusing devourer and the power of it with an on-hit item the way Yi is. Devourer is good on champions like Shyv, Udyr, Jax, etc and they typically build that, another item (botrk or rageblade) and go for durability. That's been typical of their play patterns since their existence and they've been balanced around being bruisers. They do significantly less damage than Yi will but they will be more durable and offer a little more utility.

The point here is that this wasn't an intended interaction for Yi and if it is, it is overturned and needs toned down. When I say intended interaction, what I mean is Yi typically builds heavy offense and maybe 1 defensive item, not two offensive items and building tank after that. The simple truth is he is doing way too much damage with this build and it needs to be nerfed. It doesn't work with just devourer either, it works with warrior + ghostblade into tank as well. It shouldn't be a surprise because Yi had absurdly high base damages while getting bonus AD passively from his E and his R gives him a ton of attack speed while also being immune to slows, the power of that shouldn't go unappreciated.

In summary, nobody is abusing the interaction of devourer + on-hit the way Yi is and riots intention wasn't to enable him to still do the levels of damage he's doing while being as durable as he is with this build. And it is suggestive that Yi is just as much of the problem considering he can do the same thing with warrior + ghostblade.

BRBGTGBOWFLEXFeb 27, 20162 votes

I do not really think Yi is an issue and think most players just like it when Yi is not a good option, period.

Yi still offers absolutely zero utility, he should have damage to make up for it. Jax can stun. Shyvana can knockback + magic damage aoe field. Udyr has great utility and better net mobility (and he's more of a problem with echo anyways).

Those two items also are not all the damage items he needs-- he has to get a bork if he wants any hope of dealing with tanks later on and even if he builds defense, he still never becomes that resilient since meditate can be interrupted with any cc.

Bruiser Yi also makes sacrifices to jungle utility. In his damage build, he can solo baron. In his bruiser build he can't. His bruiser build makes him an "okay" pseudo-frontline and allows him to live long enough to actually do damage at least some of the time (in other builds 1cc just erases him, in a way that made him basically un-viable). With ADCs as strong as they are, Yi's strength is not problematic in the slightest.

I think there's just something infuriating about him that gets him special hatred. But I wouldn't say he's particularly over-tuned, this is probably the healthiest he's been in awhile.

MoodingtonFeb 26, 20161 votes

I have mastery 5 yi and i have to say he is broken since you can build item 3931 item 3047 item 3124 item 3153 item 3742 item 3065 and one shot tanks and carrys alike while being insanely tanky and having some immense heals

Leanus CrainFeb 27, 20161 votes

Heres the trick. Stop him early or you die, make sure that he needs to build varied amount of resistance. Play against him like you would Nasus, or he will kill you.

JefftiffyFeb 27, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leanus Crain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3X0ZJkeZ,comment-id=0011,timestamp=2016-02-27T01:18:43.171+0000)

Heres the trick. Stop him early or you die, make sure that he needs to build varied amount of resistance. Play against him like you would Nasus, or he will kill you.

It doesn't really matter. The only thing Yi needs is a small lead or to get even with you. I went Shaco jung and he was afk for the first 5 minutes. I cleared his jung of every creep and left each camp with a small one. I cleared my jung and he was lvl 5 at the same time as me. And he got a single kill and could do actual damage again.

Leanus CrainFeb 28, 20161 votes

With Shaco you just want to counter jungle the crap out of him, and not just take camps kill him during buffs.

just OK junglerFeb 27, 20161 votes

There is little to no counter against that build. Bursting him isnt a option, running is useless, team fighting is impossible, and dueling is completely out of the question, catching him out is impossible because of his ultimate. The only option viable is to 2 lane split push. The only reason master yi is seen "op" is his e, true damage. You can't build against him, he has true damage and max hp with bork.

macromiteFeb 27, 20161 votes

I've killed bruiser yi's one v one before, you just gotta save one cc for after his engage because he thinks he is immortal, and save the other for when he starts trying to heal because you don't have the dps to kill him unless you do.

SpoofghoulFeb 27, 20161 votes

fervor of battel mastery also makes htis stupid with sated and double strike aswell as the redbuff + redmsite + wuju style

with just sated hes doing like 800 damage each aa

and with just sated and ult he has almost max attackspeed

adc level dmg with 1 damage item riot logic at its finest