Buffing Jayce is a huge mistake

Edgehy··19 votes·5,163 views

Jayce is already pretty reasonably balanced.

A champion design of his nature is exactly where he needs to be and even you kind of make note of it in your patch notes: he's niche. He needs a team built around him to be successful because his independence as a champion is strong, meaning he can do things on his own, but his kit has its potential maximized when he's got a team built around him, not vice versa.

Here's what happens when Jayce becomes slightly better than balanced. He becomes overbearing. And in match ups where he faces the possibility of being killed, he can just farm with his Q and clear waves and not interact. And in top lane especially, he's extremely anti melee, though he isn't super hard to gank - granted after level 7, he becomes very dangerous to gank because his full combo can kill anything short of a armor stacked tank and that's assuming the tank wasn't starved to death by him.

And let's be honest, Jayce is an abuser of FOW skill shots that can't really be outplayed and that's bullshit, too. That's not Jayces fault because riot hasn't addressed that but that doesn't make him less frustrating to fight.

I just get nervous with champions like Jayce. Poke has proven to a very violent balancing point in the past and poke comps can emerge from being bad to oppressive in a heartbeat as we've seen many times before. I also think Jayce is reasonably balance and there isn't any need to buff him. His one downside is he has to rush tear but because he has 6 spells by level 3/4, he's one of the best early game champions there is. Taking away from this is a mistake and could potentially push him far over the edge.

I know it's too late and the buffs are going through but I'm just going to say now, I think this is a big mistake. Not being meta doesn't mean a champion is weak and typically, being a niche pick is the epitome of balanced. There was no reason to change that.

65 Comments

Gregor Gysi13 votes

45% winrate, <1% pickrate - "balanced niche champion".

Sweetheart Annie10 votes

fuck jayce

Edgehy4 votes

Come on now, let's be reasonable. If we nerfed every champion because we hated them, the game would be dead.

Objectively, Jayce isn't meta right now and there's no reason to pick him. But that's not because he's bad, it's because you can pick nautilus, graves, Quinn, fiora, poppy, Etc. and just hard engage on a single target (or team) and blow them up. As a result, poke is kind of meh right now because of these variables. With nerfs coming to some of them now and future patches nerfing them further, that alone could open the door for champions like Jayce.

This is where riot gets in trouble, sometimes they force things with random buffs or extreme changes and then a few patches later "well wow how is this champ strong? We dunno lol but we are nerfing them."

Gregor Gysi2 votes

It's because he is bad compared to pretty much every other toplane (or midlane) champion. I'd call that bad, but sure, go ahead and sugar coat it.

Edgehy1 votes

{quoted}

It's because he is bad compared to pretty much every other toplane (or midlane) champion. I'd call that bad, but sure, go ahead and sugar coat it.

Jayce shouldn't just be a good top laner, sorry. And I've already explained that his top lane winrate can be attributed to champions who beat him pretty hard being meta right now. A fart in the wind an change that and his winrate could jump 5-6% over night.

Just because something isn't picked or has a low winrate doesn't mean it's bad and if I remember correctly, Jayce has always kind of hovered in the 48-50% area even at his strongest.

People also don't seem to build him right, getting tear and then rushing ghostblade makes his burst insane. And when properly building him, his winrate does actually jump up to 54%.

There's a lot of reasons Jayce isn't being played and none of it has to do with him sucking because he doesn't suck. But please continue to argue emotionally and not lay out anything tangible as if it's credible and quite frankly, it wasn't even worth responding to.

Gregor Gysi2 votes

Where have I been arguing emotional?

Your post is extremely speculative as the picture you have of Jayce is in a severe contrast to everything data provides us with. One of your main concerns appears to be that Riot buffs Jayce so hard that he is viable in an unfavourable meta and is going to roflstomp once the meta changes. The issue with that is that meta doesn't suddenly change "by a fart in the wind". It could change by major changes to (itemization, champions or masteries). Other than the mage update nothing major seems to be on the current agenda. However, what is on the current agenda is the meta change itself. Seeing only tanky toplaners (+Quinn) is clearly not what Riot wants.

Now they have two options. Either nerfing the current toplaners and being surprised by whoever comes next (mages top again?!) or carefully buff champions that are relatively weak right now (champion strength is actually always relative to other champions). Apparantly they decided to do a mixture of both, slightly nerfing the current champions and now buffing Jayce and others. This gives Riot a better control over the meta than the first approach.

No idea why you think that meta would change by farts overnight or whatever your imagination feeds you. What you also don't acknowledge is how badly Jayce is performing on top. Saying that he "has a niche for when his team builds around him" is a nice euphemism for "he doesn't suck completely ducks on toplane when he is performing in an ideal environment". Before he is going to be OP on toplane he is going to be OP in midlane.

On a sidenote: I find it really funny how you have a problem with me quoting current data while seemingly having no issue with throwing around things like:

{quoted}

Jayce is already pretty reasonably balanced.

without any backup at all. I mean, look at that:

{quoted}

Jayce is already pretty reasonably balanced.

A champion design of his nature is exactly where he needs to be and even you kind of make note of it in your patch notes: he's niche. He needs a team built around him to be successful because his independence as a champion is strong, meaning he can do things on his own, but his kit has its potential maximized when he's got a team built around him, not vice versa.

Sniperkaj2 votes

Suck it up he can kill ur braindead champ...

Sweetheart Annie5 votes

{quoted}

Suck it up he can kill ur braindead champ...

what are u talking about sion takes way more skill than jayce LOL you're a troll if you think otherwise

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Suck it up he can kill ur braindead champ...

ive picked up jayce in the past. probably one of the easiest champions to play in the game. he has 6 abilities, but that doesnt make him difficult to play, as the couple of combos he can pull off with them are all easy and straight forward, with a lot of simple point and click abilities with large burst attached.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=000000020001,timestamp=2016-03-23T04:26:49.050+0000)

ive picked up jayce in the past. probably one of the easiest champions to play in the game. he has 6 abilities, but that doesnt make him difficult to play, as the couple of combos he can pull off with them are all easy and straight forward, with a lot of simple point and click abilities with large burst attached.

He's considerably harder than Garen.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=0000000200010000,timestamp=2016-03-23T10:45:41.958+0000)

He's considerably harder than Garen.

no he actually isnt. id say mechanically theyre about equally difficult.

jayce has enough in his kit to come out on top of most trades. or at least to avoid actual all in fights if he wants. really the most difficult ability in his kit is landing his q in cannon stance.

i mean what are his other abilities? w is just an attack speed steroid. e, is a movement speed boost the size of the lane. shooting q though e, or walking through it isnt exactly hard.

in hammer stance his q is a point and click gap closer. his w is again just an active, and his e is a point and click knockback with a lot of burst.

all of his cooldowns are independent. by throwing a cannon q, youre not blocking your hammer q. his ability combos in both form are just q + e. so how is that more difficult to play than garen?

90% of playing jayce is spamming q in cannon stance, and hitting r (,q) + e when someone wants to fight you in melee.

Foxstep4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=00000002000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-23T13:07:01.673+0000)

no he actually isnt. id say mechanically theyre about equally difficult.

jayce has enough in his kit to come out on top of most trades. or at least to avoid actual all in fights if he wants. really the most difficult ability in his kit is landing his q in cannon stance.

i mean what are his other abilities? w is just an attack speed steroid. e, is a movement speed boost the size of the lane. shooting q though e, or walking through it isnt exactly hard.

in hammer stance his q is a point and click gap closer. his w is again just an active, and his e is a point and click knockback with a lot of burst.

all of his cooldowns are independent. by throwing a cannon q, youre not blocking your hammer q. his ability combos in both form are just q + e. so how is that more difficult to play than garen?

90% of playing jayce is spamming q in cannon stance, and hitting r (,q) + e when someone wants to fight you in melee.

This guy wants to tell us garen and jayce are about equally difficult and he is serious about that... I'm out.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

This guy wants to tell us garen and jayce are about equally difficult and he is serious about that... I'm out.

good. its not like you had anything to contribute anyways.

jayce is really fucking easy to play. just because he has 6 abilities doesnt mean he requires mechanical skill. he needs a good bit of decision making, but so does garen.

having a versatile kit doesnt automatically make a champion harder to play. it just gives him more tools to adapt to most situations.

literally half of jayce kit is just active abilities, and the other half point and click.

i played the champion myself. please do not pretend hes hard to get down.

Jungle Brungus2 votes

"literally half of his kit is point and click" defending garen xD

Foxstep2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jungle Brungus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=00000002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-23T14:58:31.133+0000)

"literally half of his kit is point and click" defending garen xD

This guy is so delusional holy god, no wonder he is posting from his smurf. I can't believe he compares jayce to garen in terms of mechanical easiness. I never said jayce is the hardest champ in league but when garen has to be careful about his positioning, then fucking jayce has to be too.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

This guy is so delusional holy god, no wonder he is posting from his smurf. I can't believe he compares jayce to garen in terms of mechanical easiness. I never said jayce is the hardest champ in league but when garen has to be careful about his positioning, then fucking jayce has to be too.

if jayce is getting caught out in melee, he can e his opponent away with a guaranteed shitton of damage and run away with acceleration gate and the movement speed buff from his r. when he cant fight his opponent head on, he can fish for pokes with empowered cannon q on a squishy from a screen away without taking risks.

please tell me more how jayce has to care more about positioning than garen while being effective.

fact his, jayce always has a way to contribute to a teamfight, even if its just poke. the important point here is, that this playstile doesnt require taking any risk on his part. missing a q wont get him into a bad spot. hes free to try again when the ability is off cooldown.

play garen and get into a wrong spot, and watch how useful you are.

as far as ive seen, you havent made a single direct argument that disproved any of mine. all youre doing is complaining and spewing your worthless opinion, while trying to insult me.

you havent brought up a single point where jayce actually takes more mechanical skill. is it hitting w and right clicking in cannon stance? or is it poking with cannon q until you hit one, then going in for almost guaranteed burst in hammer stance?

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=00000002000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-23T13:07:01.673+0000)

no he actually isnt. id say mechanically theyre about equally difficult.

kek

Jayce is hardly the most difficult champion in the game by any means (though he can seem much harder than he is right now because he's bad), but a champion whose combo is far less brainlessly intuitive and with actual skill shots they are expected to hit isn't as easy as fucking Garen.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=000000020001000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-23T19:45:42.561+0000)

kek

Jayce is hardly the most difficult champion in the game by any means (though he can seem much harder than he is right now because he's bad), but a champion whose combo is far less brainlessly intuitive and with actual skill shots they are expected to hit isn't as easy as fucking Garen.

he might have a skillshot, but what does it matter really when it has that much range and projectle speed? there is no risk involved for him in missing it.

so yea. he has a skillshot. wow. and its not like the rest of his kit depends on it. (like nidalees w requires her to hit a spear to get a significant boost).

Sniperkaj2 votes

Wow you found out Jayce can shoot Q through E... Congratulations! Did you work it out yourself? Now tell me, WHERE do you place E? Im 99 % sure u place the gate at max range, and NOT on top of yourself. And can you manage to stutterstep with 2.5 AS? And when was the last time you interrupted a LB/Jarvan/Yasuo/Fizz mid-jump with his knockback? Can you place the gate perpendicular to yourself when you want maximum speed? Or even, can you abuse his bug and get a "ranged hammer-attack" off for a little extra dmg?

He is considerably harder than you think.

1011001110002 votes

E's placement hardly really matters in lane because you don't really need to be sneaky about it.

Try stutter-step on Kog when he gets over 2.5 :^|

All you're pointing out are very niche, situational ability uses that a lot of other simple champion kits have. That doesn't change the fact that most of Jayce's gameplay is actually very simplistic and doesn't even vary with the flow of the game that much. The fact that he can point-click knockback isn't something unique or skillful to only Jayce (e.g. Vayne, Poopy), and most of this stuff just boils down to good reaction times, rather than a deeper understanding of sub-optimal combo plays that have greater utility in specific instances over his basic combo.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Wow you found out Jayce can shoot Q through E... Congratulations! Did you work it out yourself? Now tell me, WHERE do you place E? Im 99 % sure u place the gate at max range, and NOT on top of yourself. And can you manage to stutterstep with 2.5 AS? And when was the last time you interrupted a LB/Jarvan/Yasuo/Fizz mid-jump with his knockback? Can you place the gate perpendicular to yourself when you want maximum speed? Or even, can you abuse his bug and get a "ranged hammer-attack" off for a little extra dmg?

He is considerably harder than you think.

hes not harder than i think. i played the champion.

interrupting the guys is not hard, if you target them outside your cast range. it will immediately que up the command and automatically knock them back as soon as they jump into range.

those are basic techniques that you have to do wth every champion.

jayce ability combos are really incredibly easy. and since most of them are point and click, and the only skillshot that matters is his q, it makes the champion easier to play than most. especially due to how versatile his melee/ranged kit makes him.

liek the hadest he ever has to pull off is e + q in ranged stance to poke his opponent, and then run through acceleration gate for q + e in hammer stance. those are his bread and butter combos. his w in either form is just there.

Sniperkaj1 votes

You can make all champions sound easy. I dont expect you to have a high winrate on Jayce over many games, if you think he is the same as Garen. Also just neglecting every finesse the champion has and saying "that doesn't matter" makes the champion weaker, as you are not getting the optimal performance from them.

Out of curiosity, which champion do YOU think is hard and why? A guy that finds Garen and Jayce equally skill-based, what does he think about that question?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

You can make all champions sound easy. I dont expect you to have a high winrate on Jayce over many games, if you think he is the same as Garen. Also just neglecting every finesse the champion has and saying "that doesn't matter" makes the champion weaker, as you are not getting the optimal performance from them.

Out of curiosity, which champion do YOU think is hard and why? A guy that finds Garen and Jayce equally skill-based, what does he think about that question?

what finesse, seriously? what exactly do you think in his kit is hard?

i dont need to make him sound easy. so many people think hes difficult because he has 2 stances and 6 abilities, without actually looking at how easy those abilities are to be used.

it took me a handful of games to fully understand the champion.

a champion that i actually found difficult to play is yasuo. he on the other hand is a champion whos a lot more difficult to play than people tend to give credit for. yes, his powerspike from two items is insane, but it takes a while getting used to proper placement of the windwall and not overshoot or undershoot with his dash. and the animation cancelling with his e is important for early trades. he has a lot of fine mechanics that need a while to really understand imo. jayce is almost braindead easy.

i mean nidalee is harder than him, as at least a lot of her effectiveness resides on the ability to hit a spear. while jayce kit doesnt get more or less effective from consistently hitting or missing his q. his hammer q is gonna deal the same amount of damage, and his e still has a shtton of burst and the knockback.

Voluug131 votes

( ͡⊙ ͜ʖ ͡⊙)

Yes, fuck Jayce ( ͡◉ ͜ʖ ͡◉)

Sniperkaj9 votes

He has been buffed for minutes and we already have the first whiner. Wow. You seriously think Jayce was balanced before? He has been so weak since preseason, and finally gets a very little amount of help. And to his hammer form (hint: that is not poke). He is only played by mains and that will not change now. And yes, his poke can be juked, or anticipated if it is from FOW. Another tip: get to 30 mins and you win the game by deafult, his late sucks.

It seriously pisses me off someone like you just try to keep a champion bad, with the sole purpose of ruining the champion for the players who like him. Get outta here scrub. Or You got outplayed by a Jayce, in that case get over it

Fusarix3 votes

{quoted}

He has been buffed for minutes and we already have the first whiner. Wow. You seriously think Jayce was balanced before? He has been so weak since preseason, and finally gets a very little amount of help. And to his hammer form (hint: that is not poke). He is only played by mains and that will not change now. And yes, his poke can be juked, or anticipated if it is from FOW. Another tip: get to 30 mins and you win the game by deafult, his late sucks.

It seriously pisses me off someone like you just try to keep a champion bad, with the sole purpose of ruining the champion for the players who like him. Get outta here scrub. Or You got outplayed by a Jayce, in that case get over it

Last time i checked jayce scaled quite well into the late game...

Edgehy4 votes

{quoted}

Last time i checked jayce scaled quite well into the late game...

He does

He's arguably the best late game AD caster that there is

charcharmunro1 votes

MonkeyKing is probably the only one that comes close.

Miudmon2 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Jayce

this link proves you objectively wrong. he nosedives lategame in terms of winrate, hitting slightly below 44% come very lategame in plat+ ranked

Sniperkaj1 votes

Check again. Under 40 % winrate at 40+ minutes at Champion.gg. Atrocious lategame, try again...

Edgehy3 votes

{quoted}

He has been buffed for minutes and we already have the first whiner. Wow. You seriously think Jayce was balanced before? He has been so weak since preseason, and finally gets a very little amount of help. And to his hammer form (hint: that is not poke). He is only played by mains and that will not change now. And yes, his poke can be juked, or anticipated if it is from FOW. Another tip: get to 30 mins and you win the game by deafult, his late sucks.

It seriously pisses me off someone like you just try to keep a champion bad, with the sole purpose of ruining the champion for the players who like him. Get outta here scrub. Or You got outplayed by a Jayce, in that case get over it

What a well thought out post full of great points backed by evidence and constructive discussion, I applaud you.

A) he's not bad, you probably just are B) he's bad late game? What? He's AMAZING late game lol. C) I don't want him to be bad, he's fine now. There's no reason to buff him just because he isn't being played. And so what if he isn't? Tons of champions aren't played right now. Nasus isn't played right now, should riot buff Nasus? Lee hardly gets played right now, should he be buffed?

You're calling me a whiner and I'm not whining. I didn't say Jayce was OP, I said he was balanced and doesn't need buffs. I'm sorry you think he's weak because you refuse to adjust your play style or builds but right now, with flat pen and CDR galore with AD items, Jayce is honestly pretty good. He's not played because the meta has broken AD carry solo laners and tanks dominating, champions Jayce can have a tough time with. But that's not because Jayce is bad, it's because those champions are op.

BeatzBoyFTW7 votes

A) he's not bad, you probably just are

Says a guy who has never played Jayce before.

B) he's bad late game? What? He's AMAZING late game lol.

He's technically a "tank-ish" Q-poking Varus. Other than that, it's hard to see him contributing anything in teamfights besides Q-poking.

C) I don't want him to be bad, he's fine now. There's no reason to buff him just because he isn't being played. And so what if he isn't? Tons of champions aren't played right now. Nasus isn't played right now, should riot buff Nasus? Lee hardly gets played right now, should he be buffed?

Playrates of certain champions you listed:

Jayce 0.95% top & 0.61% mid Nasus 7.56% top LeeSin 22.81% jungle

Did you even do research before posting this comment?

AlwaysByMySide4 votes

{quoted}

Nasus isn't played right now, should riot buff Nasus?

Nasus has the sixth highest play rate top lane.

Lee hardly gets played right now, should he be buffed?

Lee, as usual, has the single highest jungle play rate, and the fourth highest overall.

Sniperkaj4 votes

You want facts, and i will get them for you! For this purpose, we will be looking at Champion.gg for all the games played on Jayce on patch 6.5, BEFORE the buff.

Toplane his winrate is insanely low, 45.18 %. It is just under Yorick, an intentionally gutted champion. Playrate is under 1 %. He needs a buff for toplane, case closed.

Midlane: Winrate is 48.56 %, which doesn't indicate a buff is desperately needed - but certainly wouldn't hurt either. His playrate is extremely low, 0.61 %, so the few people who play him should be really good at him. For winrate vs experience, if you have 125+ games on Jayce, your winrate is statistically 54 %, which is not bad, but nothing special either. You say his lategame is amazing. Look at the winrate vs game length, it is around 50 % all the time until we hit the 40+ minutes games. where is winrate is 39 %. That is ATROCIOUSLY bad. Give all champions in the game their full build, almost none are worse than Jayce. The statistics prove me right on this one, and unfortunately show your lack of knowledge towards Jayce.

Since you think i'm bad, instead of taking MY word for Jayce is weak, watch this video by a dude that is MUCH better than you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wovjZvZHJOA confirming all I say. And yeah, you can go a Korean build with ER/IE/TriF/LW and be a monster lategame, If you have godlike Korean mechanics, but too few players have that (and i don't sadly), and then you depend on going late, which is just the reverse problem

So there you have it! Jayce needs major buffs in toplane, and a minor buff midlane, Now he has got a deserved minor buff, which i am sure you by now know as well.

By the way, did you know that Jayce only had 1 week of 50%+ winrate for 1½ years? The ONLY champion that can say the same is Lee Sin, an overplayed, high-skill champion that dominated competitive. Mind-blowing, right!?! Jayce has never been a powerhouse in SoloQ, only ranged between "balanced" and "underpowered".

Fusarix2 votes

Can't tell exactly, but I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood the patch notes: "Poke has proven to a very violent balancing point in the past and poke comps can emerge from being bad to oppressive in a heartbeat as we've seen many times before" ... In the patch notes, Riot is buffing Q - To the Skies (His hammer form Q) not his Shock blast (His poking tool). -- A lot of Jayce players (including myself) ignore hammer form in lane, melee form generally doesn't offer as much as cannon form for overall power in lane. With these small buffs its gives him a little more incentive to go aggressive in hammer form without worrying about losing too much mana in a trade, I think the ad ratio buff is a bit too much, dont get me wrong. But its not like they're making whats strong about him even more rediculous.

Edgehy1 votes

I am aware of the buff but Jayces melee form combo already does a lot of damage because of its execute plus the shred he gets when he changes forms.

This won't change how he plays in mid and in top lane he's already aggressive with hammer when he can execute a champion.

This doesn't incentivize that, it's how he functions and it's what he's done and buffing that won't change him. It will simply make him better at doing it, which is a problem given that he's already extremely potent at poking - should he really be able to blow targets up even harder than he does in melee form?

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Rest in spaghetti never forghetti

http://i.imgur.com/vBDqra1.png[/img]

Dunkrius2g1 votes

Then remove the buff next patch. Simple solutions.

Edgehy2 votes

{quoted}

Then remove the buff next patch. Simple solutions.

Unfortunately riot has a track record of over complicating the simple stuff

Fusarix2 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately riot has a track record of over complicating the simple stuff

Next patch they are gonna nerf his hammer q to the ground and give his w the ability to give you extra EXP when an ally is nearby forcing himto go bot lane. SO the mordekaiser treatment :D haha .-.

apofis pl1 votes

[deleted]

Fusarix12 votes

[{quoted}](name=apofis pl,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-03-23T03:28:57.418+0000)

If this cancer-champ will be once again popular, i will kill myself. He is the most gay champ for toplane, teemo and vayne sucks his balls.

Someone's a little salty

Dengeden1 votes

Regrettably, Jayce has this "why pick Jayce when you can pick Varus" thing going for him. What with his ranged form being his only presence in teamfights 99% of the time.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

Regrettably, Jayce has this "why pick Jayce when you can pick Varus" thing going for him. What with his ranged form being his only presence in teamfights 99% of the time.

With how fast actual tanks are getting blown up this season, it's not surprising Jayce doesn't dare dive. Especially when he has an alternative. Nidalee is the same way.

The only champion that chooses to go into teamfights in melee form is Gnar. Unless you're getting a mega-sized pile of stats for being melee, why would you want to?

Sightless661 votes

his kit has its potential maximized when he's got a team built around him

The problem is, even in those teams, he's only just good. Not amazing. Not even really the best option you could have for those compositions. That's not a good thing.

Ideally, a niche champion should be somewhat weak outside of their ideal comps, but one of the stronger champions when you actually can pull the niche off successfully. If they're only average even when everything is set up in their advantage, then they aren't balanced. They're weak champions who occasionally get to not be as weak. That's where is Jayce is standing right now.

Not being meta doesn't mean a champion is weak

When they stay "not-meta" for years at a time and through multiple meta shifts, I'm inclined to disagree. We've had metas that should theoretically be ideal for him that he didn't make even the slightest impression on. That's not an indicator of a good balance state. That says to me that he's just blatantly not good.

He's not being kept down just because of the meta. His history of nonpreformance over the past couple seasons doesn't support that argument.

There was no reason to change that.

When he's failing to compete as a niche pick even under ideal circumstances, there is, and he's been failing to compete for a very long time.

ArlanKels1 votes

I love Jayce, but I feel like in the early game his mana constraints are obvious and excessive. It almost forces you to get a Tear simply to make up for the mana problems he tends to have... While your enemy builds straight damage.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I love Jayce, but I feel like in the early game his mana constraints are obvious and excessive. It almost forces you to get a Tear simply to make up for the mana problems he tends to have... While your enemy builds straight damage.

thats because when he didnt have these mana constraints he literally just sat on his side of the lane and spammed empowered q's all throughout the lane phase.

the idea was to force him to go into hammer stance now and then and take a risk by moving closer to his opponent while he regains mana with his w.

as much risk as a champion with a point and click disengage that deals 20% max hp damage is taking at the least. enemy uses gap closer on you, you hover your mouse over him and press e. congratulations, you won the trade. now go back to cs and poke with q and w in cannon stance.

ArlanKels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9M7uRcRa,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2016-03-23T18:12:29.199+0000)

thats because when he didnt have these mana constraints he literally just sat on his side of the lane and spammed empowered q's all throughout the lane phase.

the idea was to force him to go into hammer stance now and then and take a risk by moving closer to his opponent while he regains mana with his w.

as much risk as a champion with a point and click disengage that deals 20% max hp damage is taking at the least. enemy uses gap closer on you, you hover your mouse over him and press e. congratulations, you won the trade. now go back to cs and poke with q and w in cannon stance.

Yeah while I was here for release I didn't really play Jayce on Summoners Rift. He was my preferred choice for Dominion. Him and Rammus. I loves me gating a fellow Rammus out of the spawn woo~

Anywho. So I missed out on the "turtle jayce" strategy that many employed.

Are there any champions who you think beat Jayce 1v1 prior to late game?

BadmoonBC1 votes

Dude Jayce needed a buff insanely bad. He's like the only bad as champ in an ad meta lol

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