The Garen rework was a step backwards and it was the biggest failure of any rework

Edgehy··10 votes·1,840 views

I might throw Skarner in there to an extent just because Skarner has been shafted so many times but Skarners gsmeplay pattern isn't simplistic and so basic that anyone can pick him up and do well with him. The other champion is Mordekaiser and of course, to no surprise, all 3 were juggernaut reworks that completely missed the mark. The Darius rework was slightly good, it gave him the ability to excel in his design.

Excluding Skarner for the reasons mentioned above, the next champion is mordekaiser. And while the Mordekaiser rework was an atrocity in its own right, the Mordekaiser rework was actually successful if you look at it objectively. The goal of the Mordekaiser rework was to make a melee champion functional in bot lane. It worked. What it took was a horribly oppressive design that shouldn't ever be placed in league again and riot nerfs it and rightfully so but then they go on to leave him in the gutter. The morde mains should feel the most violated because they are but again, objectively, his rework was a success. It was just stupid.

This leads me to Garen. His problems and issues weren't fixed. His strengths are still there and his weaknesses are still there but that's his problem in the first place and always was. He's too straight forward and if he's ever good, he's so basic and lacking in the need for mechanical skill that there's very little that separates an experienced Garen player from a non experienced one. His design makes him so that he simply runs at you, attacks you and kills you with the only requirement being to get in melee range and to an extent even THAT was removed. Champions like this are unhealthy. They don't provide much when they're behind and they feel oppressive and lacking in counterplay when ahead because they are beefy champions with enough damage to solo anybody.

You didn't fix any of his gameplay issues by adding new spells that would allow him to maintain some relevance through utility. While he can be very tanky and he has a silence, let's be realistic and realize you would never pick Garen for this as a failsafe if he didn't do well in lane. Lulu, Kayle, Maokai, nautilus, etc can do this much better. So Garens problems weren't addressed and his rework hardly changed his kit in the way it needed to be changed.

What you ended up giving him was one of the stupidest mechanics in the game. A no gameplay oriented mechanic that grants him max% hp true damage to whoever is doing well on the enemy team. I'm sorry, I thought this was league and not DOTA. This mechanic is by far the absolute most frustrating mechanic to play against because as a player doing well, you literally did nothing wrong. You did well and you get punished for it and he gets rewarded for this. You gave him relevance no matter what by making him have the power to melt a target regardless of how well he's done or not. In no way is this healthy, it's completey binary because his kit is binary in the first place. All it did was make his highs higher and his lows lower. And it made him even more of a train wreck that's frustrating to play against.

Can we go back and actually remake all these juggernauts? Darius is fine. Skarner just needs small tweaks and to remove his stupid passive and possibly revert his rework entirely. Why can't you just admit you were wrong and revert these changes?

Thanks for listening

19 Comments

Goodnight Nunu5 votes

I'd argue Morde's rework was the worst we've ever gotten.

Dominick Destine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hentaî Senpaî,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEb27oHl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-23T21:56:58.382+0000)

I'd argue Morde's rework was the worst we've ever gotten.

Cassiopeia

Edgehy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEb27oHl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-02-23T22:07:48.268+0000)

Cassiopeia

Cass players seem to be very upset with her rework. I don't play Cass or understand her too well so all I can do is acknowledge how they feel. But at the very least, they are addressing her again. Hopefully they get it right for your guys sake this time :/

Edgehy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hentaî Senpaî,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEb27oHl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-23T21:56:58.382+0000)

I'd argue Morde's rework was the worst we've ever gotten.

On one hand it is, on one it isn't. I feel for morde players more than anyone else. He got shafted so hard even Skarner is crying for him. But as I stated, based on what riot wanted to do, Mordes rework was a success. The downside is that he was an experiment that they weren't too pleased on the results with and they ended up dumpstering him. Do you know what I mean? I'm not arguing his rework was bad, I am pointing out that it did what they wanted it to even though it was at the expense of Mordekaiser mains.

Meep Man3 votes

Nobody dislikes Garen before the rework. So they didnt change much and gave him a reason to be picked over others (anti-snowball). Seems like a good rework for people who play him to me. I mean, Garen is good, not considered unhealthy, and not a must pick or ban. Success to me. He is also fun.

Not to mention it's thematic too.

I'm sorry, I thought this was league and not DOTA. This mechanic is by far the absolute most frustrating mechanic to play against because as a player doing well, you literally did nothing wrong. You did well and you get punished for it and he gets rewarded for this.

Yeah, well, the buff doesn't matter unless you yourself don't play around Garen how you normally do. Also, I dislike this DOTA thing. Why the reference?

Edgehy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEb27oHl,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-02-23T22:29:25.511+0000)

Nobody dislikes Garen before the rework. So they didnt change much and gave him a reason to be picked over others (anti-snowball). Seems like a good rework for people who play him to me. I mean, Garen is good, not considered unhealthy, and not a must pick or ban. Success to me. He is also fun.

I can't speak for it but many people acknowledged Garens simplicity and straight forward kit was the kind that should never be allowed to be good or even remotely functional until a massive kit change, similiar to Warwick. They didn't change anything about this.

Not to mention it's thematic too.

Yeah, good guy goes after bad guy. It is thematic, it's just unoriginal. There's a lot of cool things you could do with Garen.

Yeah, well, the buff doesn't matter unless you yourself don't play around Garen how you normally do. Also, I dislike this DOTA thing. Why the reference?

Because it's a very DOTA-esque mechanic and it's not as simple to play around as you think.

Meep Man1 votes

I can't speak for it but many people acknowledged Garens simplicity and straight forward kit was the kind that should never be allowed to be good or even remotely functional until a massive kit change, similiar to Warwick. They didn't change anything about this.

Many people wanted Garen to stay simple because they wanted simple champions to remain in the game at the time.

Yeah, good guy goes after bad guy. It is thematic, it's just unoriginal. There's a lot of cool things you could do with Garen.

If you dumb it down like that then sure.

Because it's a very DOTA-esque mechanic and it's not as simple to play around as you think.

I don't think you play Dota if you think that. I still don't get what classifies something as Dota-esque. There isn't anything in Dota like it unless you get very broad.

Edgehy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEb27oHl,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-02-23T23:07:47.937+0000)

Many people wanted Garen to stay simple because they wanted simple champions to remain in the game at the time.

The problem with this train of thought is very simplistic champions cannot be good, you remove the equation of skill from the game.

If you dumb it down like that then sure.

Are you pretending good guy going after the villian isn't dumbed down enough?

I don't think you play Dota if you think that. I still don't get what classifies something as Dota-esque. There isn't anything in Dota like it unless you get very broad.

I just mean it's a power that gives Garen the ability to remove you from the game without you actually being able to do much, especially if you're an opposing bruiser or even tank. That is what riot wanted to get away from for years because a style of gameplay like that is extremely frustrating and you are limited to what you can do about it. I say this in the sense of Poppys ult was a DOTA ult, Garens ult passive is this to significantly less of an extent. But it's still there and eliminates many champions from the game just because he exists in that game

If you don't believe me, try playing a melee against Garen. Do well in lane, then get to teamfights where you become the villian and that Garen you stomped in lane just did 1500 true damage to you and completely removed you from the fight. As a melee front liner, this is extremely lame. And if you're going to argue this isn't lame then there's nothing to discuss further. Thanks for the replies though.

warpenguin5552 votes

Cassiopeia and Mordekaiser players would disagree

ItsCalledALance1 votes

Nidalee stfu bout reworks.

Norscout1 votes

Lux doesn't really need any nerfs tbh, all of her abilities is a skill shot

Critmaster Garen1 votes

id argue that its the most successful of the reworks.

hes sitting around 52% winrate at all levels of play. just because he has a simplistic kit, doesnt mean the champion is bad or broken. and even when ahead he still has clear counterplay.

and on your argument, that he doesnt have a skill gap between new players and experienced garen players.

http://champion.gg/champion/Garen

as you can see, people who are just picking up garen win significantly less games with him than people who have been playing him for 125+ games.

the gap is actually larger than that of lee sin. i regularly check his page, and it has been looking like this since the rework.

Edgehy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEb27oHl,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-02-23T22:20:24.829+0000)

id argue that its the most successful of the reworks.

hes sitting around 52% winrate at all levels of play. just because he has a simplistic kit, doesnt mean the champion is bad or broken. and even when ahead he still has clear counterplay.

and on your argument, that he doesnt have a skill gap between new players and experienced garen players.

http://champion.gg/champion/Garen

as you can see, people who are just picking up garen win significantly less games with him than people who have been playing him for 125+ games.

Yes I admit I may have gone a bit overboard with the experience argument. However, it doesn't change anything. At the end of the day, a player for doing well is punished for doing well. This is the kind of mechanic that shouldn't be in the game. His kit could have a lot of cool things added on, instead it's basically his old kit with random true damage.

And I'm quite sure Garen has always held a relatively average winrate and I wouldn't use that as a point of arguing because it doesn't prove anything other than Garen does fairly well in solo queue. That isn't the point.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

This is the kind of mechanic that shouldn't be in the game.

according to what standarts? i take it you also dont agree to the concept of shutdown gold?

garen didnt hold an average winrate at plat and above. he barely even existed there. it was consistently below 45%, while he stomped bronze and silver pretty hard.

the way i see it, it gives him the option of jumping in and carrying the game if another lane fails to do so. its a comeback mechanic. your bot lane is behind, but you get a second chance at getting your team back into the game when you came out strong of the lane phase. your team can chose to support you instead of your underfarmed and underleveled adc to shut down the snowballing jungler or carry.

but even with the villain mechanic it requires a certain amount of team coordination to get garen to his target. because its usually difficult to do it on your own.

Edgehy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gEb27oHl,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-02-23T22:26:46.473+0000)

according to what standarts? i take it you also dont agree to the concept of shutdown gold?

Getting shutdown is a part of the game. Comparing shut down gold to Garens ult passive is wrong. They aren't the same thing. Garen gets his power for free and can simply just overpower his enemy. Shutting down an enemy requires focus and coordination, it isn't a given and it's certainly not free.

garen didnt hold an average winrate at plat and above. he barely even existed there. it was consistently below 45%, while he stomped bronze and silver pretty hard.

I just meant overall, yes he sucks in high elo (still does honestly).

the way i see it, it gives him the option of jumping in and carrying the game if another lane fails to do so. its a comeback mechanic. your bot lane is behind, but you get a second chance at getting your team back into the game when you came out strong of the lane phase. your team can chose to support you instead of your underfarmed and underfed adc to shut down the snowballing jungler or carry.

If it only worked that way, I'd have no issue with it. But it doesn't. Garen can lose lane fairly hard and still offer up some pretty redonk damage on the villian, it's especially frustrating if you're a melee who has to be in the middle of a fight and an underfed Garen can still do well over 1200 true damage to you with an execute.

but even with the villain mechanic it requires a certain amount of team coordination to get garen to his target.

Not really. Anyone at half health as a villian can eat his ult and either die or almost die and be forced out of a fight. Don't over complicate Garen, I don't think he's very good. I think his design is bad but the things his design excels at are bad for gameplay in my opinion.

Viperjcs19851 votes

Why do you believe simplicity is a key "failure" ? New people need champions to learn on. Garen is absolutely perfect for someone learning the "brawler" role and offers easy gameplay mechanics that can do good at low levels of play (and rarely if ever see high level play).

Just because a champion is simplistic does not mean his mechanics are a failure.

Edgehy1 votes

{quoted}

Why do you believe simplicity is a key "failure" ? New people need champions to learn on. Garen is absolutely perfect for someone learning the "brawler" role and offers easy gameplay mechanics that can do good at low levels of play (and rarely if ever see high level play).

Just because a champion is simplistic does not mean his mechanics are a failure.

It does if that champion ever becomes good in any realm because in the hands of a good player they become even more oppressive. There's nothing wrong with being sinple mechanically, but there need to be clear cut goals for a champion to reach that limits their effectiveness compared to their simplicity. Prior to Garens rework, his kit did this because it was bad. After, it still does except for one person and that's the villian and it's a mechanic that shouldn't be in this game. You shouldn't freely reward someone by giving them ridiculous damage amps on a player on the enemy team who is doing well. It's an extremely lame mechanic.

Pika3101 votes

Yes they failed with Garen and it was bad, but all of these were far worse reworks than Garen's:

Cassiopeia Sona Mordekaiser Karma Shen

KyroRayne1 votes

Evelynn

That's all.

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