Lee's not OP. Wanna know how? Watch my last game.

I GANK LANES·Dec 1, 2016·2 votes·917 views

Avid Lee Sin player, he's not OP and subsequently doesn't deserve nerfs despite what you hear on the boards. Seriously, I'd like at least a few people to watch my last game and see exactly what I'm talking about. Lee's power curve is shown EXACTLY in this game.

Overview: -I get fed -Hard pressure lanes early -Get more fed -Dominate mid and early game -Kayle (Jungler) starts to scale

I realize my team didn't push the lead and should of, but it just shows that even getting extremely fed late game, Lee Sin's usefulness falls off greatly late game. And I'm not a casual Lee player, I play him almost every game and know what to do with him late game. Seriously, watch it

16 Comments

AnonagonDec 1, 20162 votes

"falls off lategame" is not a universal excuse Lee Sin's early-mid power is too far beyond where it should be for a weak lategame to justify it

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 1, 20161 votes

weak lategame is not an excuse, but it also isn't an acceptable weakness. Its toxic. But that's the design lee has. His earlygame isn't actually that strong unless he snowballs btw

AnonagonDec 1, 20162 votes

Its an acceptable weakness - power curves make champions interesting. Its not acceptable to be his only weakness (which is what I think you meant)

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 1, 20161 votes

It is not an acceptable weakness

It violates the pillars of riot's own design principles and has been referred to explicitly as an example of unacceptable design.

Its also been the basis of widespread nerfs.

A weak lategame is not an acceptable weakness.

It is not his only weakness, I beat lee sins ass in skirmishes pretty much every time I jungle for no reason other than the fact people fail to understand his limitations.

I meant what I said though you may be misinterpreting "weak lategame is not an excuse" eg "its not meant to be an excuse in the first place"

Lee sin a bad design that fits to well into another bad design that riot has failed to fix and thus they need to keep him as is for now.

AnonagonDec 1, 20162 votes

I'd love to hear where Riot has "explicitly referred to it as unacceptable design", because everything I've seen from Riot tells me they think that power curves are good and often important parts of a champon's identity.

And the "he falls off lategame" is 100% meant to be an excuse by the OP. He offers up no other reasons why Lee's current state should be acceptable.

I GANK LANESDec 1, 20161 votes

it's not an excuse. what am i excusing exactly? i stated that lee has a strong early game

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 1, 20161 votes

I don't care what the OP thinks, riot knows its wrong. Its not an excuse. Like I said

"Lee sin a bad design that fits to well into another bad design that riot has failed to fix and thus they need to keep him as is for now."

I'd love to go scrounging through years worth of stuff riot has said about lee sin as well but then I realize I'm not a masochist.

There's zero contradiction there by the way.

"Sitting out half the game" as they called it is not acceptable and this doesn't mean that power curves are bad. Just because power curves are good doesn't mean there's no such thing as a bad toxic power curve

toxic does not mean OP before you go saying something ridiculous. OP ruins matches because its not balanced, toxic ruins franchises because it's terrible design that doesn't get the job done. OP is a single form of toxicity and ttoxicity is not a form of OPness. UP is also toxic.

This is the reason you can currently only buy 5 hp pots for example. Some champs want to sit out the earlygame and others the late game. This is bad design according even to riot.

AnonagonDec 1, 20161 votes

You aren't making a whole lot of sense here.

There is an inherent contradiction between saying "power curves are good" and "having a weak lategame is bad". A weak lategame is an example of a power curve. There are plenty of champions with "strong early, weak late" powercurves who are generally considered acceptable, from Renekton to Lucian.

Lee Sin does not "sit out half the game" as you say. He still has an impact lategame, even if that impact is lesser than it is early. Lee can still insec a carry into his team, help an ally with W and E, and deal dps with autoes and Q. He doesn't just go "oh, well its past twenty minutes and we aren't about to win, might as well feed!"

CerealBoxOfDoomDec 1, 20161 votes

Generally? What do you mean "generally" riot is a single entity. It doesn't matter what the populous is saying for the most part, this is about a game's design that has been deemed toxic.

"power curves are good" does not mean "you should play in the beginning and do nothing later." that's why they kept trying to change lee sin and now that you mention it renekton and Lucian also went through the wringer because their power curve wasn't what riot wanted them to have, Lucian in particular. This is a such thing as a bad power curve. A bad pattern will be dealt with sooner or later. Lee sin is an example of an ugly pattern that relies on feast or famine to function. Riot dislikes this. Others targeted for similar reasons are Garen Akali Morgana Rengar Zyra Annie Caitlyn

"power curves are good" doesn't mean "just any power curve is fine" if designing a game was that easy league would be neck deep in competition.

FourVsFiveDec 1, 20161 votes

He is OP in the hands of a skilled player, Lee sin takes good skill for instant ward hoping which makes him seem broken.

EschetonDec 1, 20161 votes

So Lee isn't OP because your team happens to suck in that one game you played. Solid case.

Never do science. Never defend yourself in court.

I GANK LANESDec 1, 20161 votes

No it happens constantly. If my team took advantage of the early lead we probably would of won, what i'm getting at is get fed like that on A LOT of other champs it's a free win.

Zen InethDec 1, 20161 votes

So you got an advantage early and couldn't translate that to late-game pressure? That sounds more like the fault of the player than the fault of the champion.

I GANK LANESDec 1, 20161 votes

lee falls off compared to his early game that's a fact.

Zen InethDec 1, 20161 votes

Sure, but that doesn't mean he isn't OP. I can go ahead and suck at playing Illaoi top, but that doesn't mean she suddenly doesn't have an inherently anti-fun kit.

I GANK LANESDec 1, 20161 votes

sure, but "an inherently anti-fun kit" doesn't mean OP, either