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Idea for Teemo's Shrooms in His Eventual Rework

Matt The Hero··3 votes·1,202 views

Teemo needs some counter-play, but his core character focus (blind darts and poison shrooms) doesn't leave a lot of leeway for interesting gameplay. Riot Scruffy acknowledged it in his Q&A on Friday. There's a reason you (and others) despise Teemo, and it's because he's completely un-fun to play against because of these core focuses.

EDIT: I was incorrect about the blind dart applying poison damage. Rethinking how to fix his dart.

I think that with a buff to damage, the easiest way to add counterplay to Teemo's shrooms is to add a window of time in which one can skillfully dodge or mitigate damage from them. I was thinking a short startup time--short enough where pivoting backwards or using a mobility spell to dash would dodge it, but not long enough where one could literally just walk right over it and dodge it--where the mushroom bulges and explodes in a shower of poison could fix it.

Buff the damage a bit, or allow Teemo to place significantly more shrooms, but I think this would add an element to the (literally) toxic shrooms people hate.

UberAffe had this to add: "...if [shrooms] have delayed damage on activation they should also be active the moment he places them. This would keep the amount of time until a shroom can do damage about the same." I think this would go perfectly with my suggestion.

Sozan5's suggestion: "The other thing I could see working is that the mushroom is revealed and start exploding once you are close to it (just like in your idea), however if you do get into the 60-range (the normal exploding range of the mushroom) it will explode immidiately - so you cannot just run or jump through the mushroom - you have to either retreat a bit or at least go sideways. This will still contribute to mobility creep but only a little bit (since you wouldn't be able to just dash through the shroom)."

Posted this on Reddit but thought it'd get more traction here.

16 Comments

Sozan52 votes

[{quoted}](name=Matt The Hero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEVo3MzU,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-12T18:32:32.245+0000)

His blinding dart is kind of an easy fix, just make it a skillshot (one with a small missile width to compensate for both the blind cc and poison DOT), but his shrooms need something special.

Just wanted to clarify that his Q doesn't apply any DoT (neither by itself nor the E DoT). Anyway, I wouldn't be against the change (though, the damage would have to be increased by a fair amount, because it would be stopped by minions I presume) but if they do touch the Q they should fix the blind mechanic as it currently is rather flawed.

What I mean by that is the fact that Blind works only for autoattacks that "start" while target is blinded. That wouldn't be so bad, if not for the fact that stupid amount of things is considered an Autoattack start, like Vayne's Q (yes, if you blind her while she is tumbling - her attack will hit), Rengar jump (blind him even at the starting position and he will still hit you) and as far as I noticed even just buffering the autoattack after a skill will often result in it hitting through blind.

I think that blind should be applied immidiately after the target is blinded and only not affect when the projectile from ranged champion was already in flight (this would also be a much needed buff for Quinn).

As for his mushrooms - I simply cannot agree to anything that would contribute to mobility creep (which is already ugly to be honest). Why not go the easy way and bring The Lightbringer and Hextech Sweeper from the other maps? Of course, only the active would work for wards - while passive would be mostly for seeing those Teemo and Shaco traps.

The other thing I could see working is that the mushroom is revealed and start exploding once you are close to it (just like in your idea), however if you do get into the 60-range (the normal exploding range of the mushroom) it will explode immidiately - so you cannot just run or jump through the mushroom - you have to either retreat a bit or at least go sideways. This will still contribute to mobility creep but only a little bit (since you wouldn't be able to just dash through the shroom).

Also, no matter what they would do to shrooms - they would need to revert the latest nerf to the shrooms (that was added because Oracle was removed from Summoner's Rift) which reduced the AP ratio of shrooms significantly.

Matt The Hero1 votes

{quoted}

Just wanted to clarify that his Q doesn't apply any DoT (neither by itself nor the E DoT).

Yes, just changed it in the OP. Didn't realize ^_^'

{quoted} Anyway, I wouldn't be against the change (though, the damage would have to be increased by a fair amount, because it would be stopped by minions I presume) but if they do touch the Q they should fix the blind mechanic as it currently is rather flawed.

What I mean by that is the fact that Blind works only for autoattacks that "start" while target is blinded. That wouldn't be so bad, if not for the fact that stupid amount of things is considered an Autoattack start, like Vayne's Q (yes, if you blind her while she is tumbling - her attack will hit), Rengar jump (blind him even at the starting position and he will still hit you) and as far as I noticed even just buffering the autoattack after a skill will often result in it hitting through blind.

I think that blind should be applied immidiately after the target is blinded and only not affect when the projectile from ranged champion was already in flight (this would also be a much needed buff for Quinn).

Agreed that blind mechanics need a change. While another poster doesn't think the Q should be a skillshot, if it were converted to skillshot it would need a huge buff in power, as you say. I agree on all of your suggestions.

{quoted} The other thing I could see working is that the mushroom is revealed and start exploding once you are close to it (just like in your idea), however if you do get into the 60-range (the normal exploding range of the mushroom) it will explode immidiately - so you cannot just run or jump through the mushroom - you have to either retreat a bit or at least go sideways. This will still contribute to mobility creep but only a little bit (since you wouldn't be able to just dash through the shroom).

I very much like this suggestion. Might add it to the OP.

{quoted} Also, no matter what they would do to shrooms - they would need to revert the latest nerf to the shrooms (that was added because Oracle was removed from Summoner's Rift) which reduced the AP ratio of shrooms significantly.

I'm not a big numbers dude, but if this change were to add counterplay to his shrooms, they would most definitely need some sort of buff (whether damage or amount placed, or prime time).

Thanks for the feedback!

Sozan51 votes

[{quoted}](name=Matt The Hero,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEVo3MzU,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-01-12T19:42:38.763+0000)

I'm not a big numbers dude, but if this change were to add counterplay to his shrooms, they would most definitely need some sort of buff (whether damage or amount placed, or prime time).

Thanks for the feedback!

They cut 30% AP ratio off the shrooms, from 80% to 50%. At 400 AP that's 120 magical damage per shroom which is pretty damn much (with old scaling it would hit almost 20% more damage at 400 AP).

Thryale1 votes

I've brought that up before, and Phreak shot me down pretty hard. Riot has no intentions to updating blind to work like atk spd buffs/de-buffs atm. :(

UberAffe1 votes

Personally I enjoy teemo for his split push, I love having vision all over the place. That being said I wouldn't mind if people had the chance to dodge/mitigate the damage from his shrooms. However if they have delayed damage on activation they should also be active the moment he places them. This would keep the amount of time until a shroom can do damage about the same.

Unless there is a major kit rework accompanying it I dont think his blind should be a skill shot. He has two damaging active abilities: blind and shrooms. But the shrooms are exeptionally ineffective in a fight unless they are chasing or you have them in a shroom field. Meaning that he has 1 ability to actively use in most fighting situations. side note: his blind does not apply poison.

Matt The Hero1 votes

{quoted}

Personally I enjoy teemo for his split push, I love having vision all over the place. That being said I wouldn't mind if people had the chance to dodge/mitigate the damage from his shrooms. However if they have delayed damage on activation they should also be active the moment he places them. This would keep the amount of time until a shroom can do damage about the same.

This is brilliant. Added to my OP because I think this change would be a great balance for what I'm suggesting.

{quoted} Unless there is a major kit rework accompanying it I dont think his blind should be a skill shot. He has two damaging active abilities: blind and shrooms. But the shrooms are exeptionally ineffective in a fight unless they are chasing or you have them in a shroom field. Meaning that he has 1 ability to actively use in most fighting situations. side note: his blind does not apply poison.

Damn, I sure thought it did apply poison. I do agree that making his dart a skillshot would gut him heavily in teamfights, especially since he doesn't fair well there at all right now. I'm unsure as of now what to do with his dart.

As for his identity as a split-pusher, Riot Scruffy suggested Teemo's shrooms being tripped extending Teemo's stealth to movement. I think it would be really great if a shroom being tripped granted Teemo stealth for a short time, with each one extending it in a chain of diminishing returns. It'd make for some interesting split-pushing, and perhaps could have some great utility in teamfights (tank trips a shroom, Teemo sneaks behind front lines to attack carry, for example).

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

I really like the dodge idea. Not the more shrooms though. Please no on that lol.

Matt The Hero1 votes

{quoted}

I really like the dodge idea. Not the more shrooms though. Please no on that lol.

If we're going to make it harder for his shrooms to hit, he needs some sort of buff to them. A damage buff, duration buff, or as UberAffe said, a removal of the "prime" startup when he places a shroom, would all suffice.

SexyTaylorSwift1 votes

Teemo can already make top ungankable/enemy jungler a land mine. Not sure why he would need more lol. Increased damage is fine.

rtbf221479701 votes

The problem with shrooms imo is Liandries. They slow, proccing the % HP shred on a long dot. Liandries does most of the damage. Solution? Remove the slow or give the item a minimum distance like abyssal scepter.

Matt The Hero1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with shrooms imo is Liandries. They slow, proccing the % HP shred on a long dot. Liandries does most of the damage. Solution? Remove the slow or give the item a minimum distance like abyssal scepter.

Eh, I'm not so confident in reworking items as I am in fixing the spell on a rather annoying champion in the game. I'm sure someone who has a better grasp on that could suggest something better (perhaps your own suggestions are what's needed, actually).

Kuroi861 votes

That's because of how heavily nerfed Teemo's Shroom is. Take that away and he's officially worse off than Urgot and Olaf.

Cale0171 votes

Mercurial Scimitar.

Counterplay achieved.

Kuroi861 votes

Q: Straight line skill shot with slight explosive damage on hit. Similar to Quinn hitting her Q (Blinding Assault).

W: Passive grants on hit magic damage. Active grants heavy dot damage on next AA but disables magic damage on hit while on cooldown.

R: Idea 1: Make shroom visible but untargetable like Cait or Nid trap. Idea 2: Allow Teemo to throw shroom, if it hits a target, it goes off instantly, if not then it will root where it lands and arm as a trap. Trap shroom grants vision and deals minor magic damage as someone steps on it, no dot. Hitting someone with the thrown shroom instead applies a heavy dot. Another possibility is that the thrown shroom will deal light dot damage, but hitting with the active dot damage from W would cause the combined damage to double for heavy damage.

Hilltop Sunset1 votes

I haven't read all the comments yet, but what about this:

Mushrooms are still invisible and explode once you hit them, slowing anyone hit, but what if after the mushroom explodes, it creates an area of effect of slowing poison that slows and deals damage over time to anyone in the area, similar to Casseopeia's AoE ground poison. If mushrooms had this effect, then you would still need to run through the entire AoE if you were actively fleeing an enemy, but if you are just walking and run into one, you could quickly change direction and walk out of the effect to mitigate the amount of damage you take from the poison.

Saixos1 votes

To be honest, I'm not a fan of the act of revealing Teemo's shrooms/giving them delayed damage, because I feel as though that would simply make hitting/dodging Teemo's shrooms a question of mechanics and not of decision-making. This would immediately remove Teemo from being accessable for top-tier play, while making him far more punishing and annoying for players in bronze/silver.

Here's my alternative proposal as a change to Teemo's shrooms, this could be applicable to Shaco's boxes as well. Allow them to be damaged by skillshots, and if a shroom is hit by a skillshot it is revealed for a short instant (about 1 second, works even if the shroom is in a bush).

This would cause some interesting gameplay, as Teemo would have to try and position his shrooms in places where the enemy is less likely to check but they'll still be effective, while not being spotted by the enemy team when doing so. Meanwhile, his shrooms would also allow him to block important skillshots such as Blitz's pull or Ahri's charm if he predicts them and places a shroom to block them. Heck, he could even use his shrooms to anticipate enemy movement/engages, and possibly avoid a large portion of their damage because the shroom saved him and allowed him to win a trade he wouldn't have won otherwise.

What would you think of that idea?

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