@Meddler: Tibbers is Boring and Does Not Fulfill Annie's "Bear Mage" Identity

Matt The Hero·4/4/2015, 5:41:11 AM·32 votes·2,625 views

To begin with, Annie's in an alright spot as far as balance goes, for the most part. She's got a normal 51% win-rate. At the same time, she's banned a bit much, being in the top 20 (specifically #18) bans.

Despite being, for the most part, balanced, I find her to be completely unhealthy as far as champ design goes. Specifically Tibbers. I think Tibbers is a huge problem, and for a couple reasons. I find the fact that Annie is able to stun and burst an entire team with her rotation disgusting. Assassins can burst one, maybe two champions. Some champs, like Gnar, can stun an entire team. But to be able to stun and basically 100%-25% if not full out kill the entire team is so very unhealthy. Admittedly, the range is low, but the "flash Tibbers to kill" is such a boring and uncreative playstyle. At 6, Annie becomes a Tibbers bot, her sole purpose in the game to flash Tibbers.

My main gripe, however, with Tibbers is how totally front-loaded his damage is. I described how unhealthy it is from a playstyle perspective, but as far as identity goes, I think it's just dumb. When playing against an Annie, the fear lies solely in "when is the Tibbers coming out". The second Tibbers is on the field, though, no one cares. He either stunned a bunch of people or didn't. He sticks around for a bit, but doesn't really do much of anything. I find his most recent changes silly (the speed up and shield, and the lowering of aura damage), as Tibbers is strictly used for the stun.

Tibbers might as well be a giant meteor. If Tibbers was exactly the same, but instead of a bear, a giant meteor fell from the sky, he would still serve the exact same function. I think this is lame, and takes away from the uniqueness of Annie's character of, "Hey, here's a big scary bear! Deal with it!"

I find this completely unfun and a waste of Annie's identity. I feel a "Bear Mage" should be more focused on the Bear. Right now, Annie's more like a "Stun Bot" than a "Bear Mage". A more interesting use of Tibbers would be to have him be a huge disruption in extended fights. A fight against Annie shouldn't be planned around the "will she, won't she" Tibbers stun, but instead, Tibbers himself should be a problem the enemy team must deal with. I think taking out his front-loaded damage (and maybe even that stun), and instead making him a very strong pet (maybe half as strong as undead Sion, but lasting longer) would be both a healthier playstyle that would allow for a lot more creative play, and would also fulfill Annie's identity and make Tibbers a consistent threat rather than a stun with a bear.

My main suggestion is: keep Tibbers stun, but severely reduce (or even remove) the front-loaded bust from it. Instead, have Tibbers begin to get into duels with champions, tearing them to shreds, like, you know, a bear would. Right now, Annie's not a pet mage, despite what Riot wants her to be, and this would be the best change. He could either be controlled through alt, like he is now, or to reduce micro, have him automatically attack whoever Annie clicks. I think this would be a healthier change that would give him a commanding presence in teamfights that he sorely lacks (and surely deserves. A giant bear coming out of nowhere would be friggen scary, and should be, but right now, all that matters is his initial stun).

TL;DR: Annie is not necessarily super strong, but she's unfun to play against. Additionally, she lacks a core theme to Tibbers (he's less of a pet and more of an AOE stun, i.e. any random object--a meteor, a fireball, etc.--could fulfill his purpose). Her playstyle could be revamped and made better by making Tibbers a threat not based on his stun, but instead on being a big disruption in the middle of the fight, dealing out good DPS in exchange for his current front-loaded stun.

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59 Comments

BluePolarizer4/4/2015, 5:44:28 AM10 votes

High burst damage is not what makes an assassin, an assassin.

It is high burst damage combined with mobility.

Annie has zero mobility.

She saw zero play during the poke/siege meta back in September because she couldn't even touch the typical midlaners back then like Xerath or Ziggs, and when she got taken top, she'd get rekt by Ryze who has way higher sustained damage and tankiness.

The only reason she is strong is due to her mana sustain, and how she has the option of starting Needlessly Large Rod while her lane opponent has to start a mana regen item, and secondarily because she counters melee assassins.

I don't even know who is banning Annie when LeBlanc and Ahri exist.

Ixoziel4/4/2015, 7:02:27 AM7 votes

I don't really understand why Talon (who is a melee assassin) and Leblanc (who is a mage and has to cast 2 spells) get their silences removed, yet annie's AOE INSTANT STUN is perfectly okay. Even if you don't have tibbers up, you can still use Q to proc it, and you can't miss (point and click herp), or you can flash and use her OTHER aoe nuke if you're desperate. Why exactly are silences "toxic" but instant AoE stuns, are okay on a hero with one of the highest ranges in the game and insane burst? Then she gets a 50 armor / MR shield that reflects damage too?

Sure, they have more mobility (although talon can't use his to get away, he has his ult), but mobility doesn't exactly matter when you're stunned. On top of that, stuns are already superior to silences in the first place, since they stop you from attacking, moving, OR casting, not just the latter.

Annie is just far too easy to play for the payoff she offers. Once you have your stun up, you can use ANY ability and you're guaranteed to get the other 2 off in a 1v1 situation. After that, you have the shield to fall back on. If you start with Q, you're basically guaranteed an unavoidable combo. At least you could move or auto attack after leblanc or talon silenced you.

Why exactly did Riot think nerfing the immolation aura on the bear would make it better? that's not the problem rofl. Her sustained damage is the LAST problem she has. I don't even get the logic there. She has an unavoidable stun combo and high burst, so you nerf tibber's aura? What?

On the other hand, we have Amumu, who has been top 5 winrate in every bracket beneath diamond for years now. Doing the best champ damage of any jungler while building straight jungle items and having both a single target stun-flash and an AoE root sure isn't "toxic". He falls off hard when you have diamond supports who are smart enough to build Mikael's and good enough to remember to use it, but other than that, he's just insanely strong.

disregardable4/4/2015, 6:00:45 AM4 votes

I'm going to disagree that Tibbers is useless once he comes out. He clears waves well from a much higher range than Annie's W or Q can. It creates a bit of control in the lane that Annie didn't really have without him. I mean preferably you'd get that from Flash-RQWing your laning opponent, but if he lives you at least your opponent can't just shove you to turret for 90 seconds.

Also, your suggestion doesn't leave a lot of room for counterplay. Like with Zyra's plants, it'd be almost impossible to get to Annie. Tibbers is up the vast majority of the game once Annie hits 6.

XxxLumberJackxxX4/4/2015, 1:08:20 PM4 votes

She isn't a bear mage. She's a fire girl with a bear that is, ON FIRE.

/nuff said

BastionKross4/4/2015, 1:57:42 PM4 votes

I agree, the threat of Tibbers shouldn't be infinitely more scary than Tibbers himself. Tibbers contribution to a teamfight shouldn't be showing up, dealing heavy damage and stunning everyone, and then awkwardly hanging around to maybe auto attack once or twice. A power shift from Tibbers initial damage to Tibbers himself would do wonders for Annie's identity. Right now she's a bursty fire mage and Tibbers takes a backseat to that. The problem is we already have a bursty fire mage:

Brand : Hello.

Annie's identity could be shifted to a summoner of a demonic bear bodyguard, and she also has a couple fire spells. Doesn't seem like much of a difference, but if her playstyle heavily revolves around controlling Tibbers (unlike now) she'll play very differently than other mages, and that is the goal.

In the Doom Bots mode, giant Tibbers actually knocked you back if he hit you with an auto. Imagine if normal Tibbers had that, he could actually peel for Annie. That's great! Annie is more reliant on controlling her bear instead of just being a normal burst mage, and the bear itself is actively protecting Annie instead of slowly slapping someone in the back of the head until they get annoyed.

Another thing you could do is have Tibbers auto attacks do %HP damage like Sion in his passive. If Tibbers actually does a chunk of health with each slap no matter how tanky you are, you have to think twice about ignoring him.

Matt The Hero4/5/2015, 1:48:45 AM2 votes

Was honestly hoping for a red response by now, character identity is an issue Rioters seem to like discussing and I think Annie is having a real crisis

Matt The Hero4/6/2015, 6:08:55 AM2 votes

Meddler didn't see this, RIP Tibbers

SaltyToplaneGoat4/4/2015, 8:07:13 PM2 votes

I have some more ideas on how to make Annie a better champion.

First of all change Q to a skillshot. For the range it has the guaranteened poke + cc at some times is just annoying to deal with.

But: make every skill have an effect on Tibbers! Hitting an enemy with skillshot Q will cause Tibbers to run to the traget while entering a frenzy mode (increased speed and attack speed). Using W will cause a burst of flame damage enemies around him and shield... oh wait, he already gets the shield.

To compensate that just lower the damage the initial tibbers blast has. And make it less instant. Annie throws that bear actually, so... a short delay won't be bad I guess. (0,5 sec? maybe, dunno...)

Make all her abilities interact with tibbers -> bear mage ^^

Velasan4/4/2015, 8:30:10 PM1 votes

Sorry, but I just don't agree. There are champions who do similiar things and it is all annie really does. Changing her damage to less reliable pieces of her kit after her fire shield changes only serve to make her even less fun to play and play against.

ColinFly4/4/2015, 8:54:35 PM1 votes

One issue i see rising with this change is Annie becoming an unstoppable siege god.

We've all seen what an undead Sion can do to a turret if he so happens to die right under enemy turret. If you were to give Annie a controllable punching beast every minute or 2 than she could end up turning mid lane into her stomping ground much too fast and start roaming where Annie is arguably at her strongest.

Tract4/4/2015, 9:03:36 PM1 votes

I don't usually complain about champs, but I completely agree. Whenever I see an Annie I kinda just sign and resign myself to an annoying game. Shes not exactly overpowered but just a HUGE pain to play against. Just seeing her running around with her stun up, or could be up any time, pre 6 is already bad. But 6-endgame is what makes her boring and unhealthy to play against. Knowing that even a 90% support built Annie at ANY time can kill you or almost kill you with her ult stun(and your whole team too) is awful. Shes just SO un fun to play against, and there is very very VERY little counter play involved because at ANY time she can flash-tibbers stun-passive stun and you and your team are dead. There is almost no way to counter that and it just makes the game dull and boring for both teams, waiting for the lighting flash stun. Since she isn't actually OP, nerfing her wouldn't be smart, but she really does need to be changed in some way.

Raptamei4/4/2015, 11:09:43 PM1 votes

She needs to have the stun replaced with a root and capped at 5 seconds or so, otherwise there is no counterplay.

No one cares about champion identity, we just want BALANCE.

desertoflame4/5/2015, 1:34:49 AM1 votes

If Annie can stun 5 champs then one of two things happened.

  1. She made the perfect play
  2. The enemy had really bad positioning Tibbers does not help her? Bulllllllllll. I play CDR Annie (40%) and constantly have Tibbers up. I summon him for a good engage in lane and with my rotation I get my opponent to less than 1/2. Now what? I press R on the enemy and zone him with Tibbers. He tries fighting TIbbers, hit E for more damage. If Tibbers survives he dissapears but he is up in 40 secondsish at rank One, 15 seconds at rank 2, and 3 seconds at rank 3. I consistently depend on Tibbers to engage and zone. What about getting ganked? There are many options for tibbers. Summon him in front of the Jungler and position behind Tibbers while back peddling to safety so Annie skill shots can be blocked (Shield mode). I've played Annie a lot and at this point when I play I use both Annie and Tibbers to combat the opponent Annie in team fights? I have to admit that the idea of "flash Tibbers" is a good description of her goal in a team fight. If the enemy front line positions right and the carries are not being dumb then Annie cannot do anything. Annie is completely reliant on being able to catch a carry of guard. The only times I have good flash ults are either when the enemy has no vision of the sides (usually have pink ward upgrade so I know I am good) or the carries are being dumb. Her Abilities Q is point and click, but the range is not that high. It is a free stun? Well yeah If you are dumb enough to get close to her. Longest range mage...alright...I guess her AA is the highest...to bad she is not AD or that may be a big issue. She only has one point and click ability in her kit mixed in with zero mobility. If Annie ever wants to Flash ult she loses her only, and I mean only escape. She is fine the way she is, risk and rewards
Csfuser4/6/2015, 7:44:52 AM1 votes

I know people are tired of transformation champions (I'm just brainstorming here), but what if Annie transformed or soul-linked herself to Tibbers or what have you, and became Gnar-esque with her ult?

ZephyrDrake4/4/2015, 9:05:31 AM1 votes

oh look another dude who decided it was a nice idea to hump their tanks while being a squishy and now comes complaining about Annie's FLASH combo

Scrimshäw4/4/2015, 4:04:03 PM1 votes

You know I never forgot the counterplay to Annie;

"Go near your minions and you die"

Edge of Daybreak4/4/2015, 4:11:02 PM1 votes

Look at how bad sion's passive is then tell me that it would be good to turn tibbers into a worse version of that. Annie is only playable because of the instant stun. She literally offers nothing else that another burst mage doesn't. Tibbers would need to do broken damage while being immune to cc and 450 movespeed to be good without the damage and stun. Then annie would just flash W or Q you then have tibbers gib you while stunned anyway.

At best she is removed from the game in a veigar style deletion or she becomes the strongest single target mage in the game but cant actually do anything to more than one person if that because banshees is still in the game.

TL:DR making Annie garbage doesnt make her healthy. It only makes her unhealthy in a different way.

Raxicor4/4/2015, 4:16:05 PM1 votes

I think your ideas are interesting. It'd be cool it her other spells helped buff Tibbers too, to make her more bear-centric. Maybe Tibbers gets a single-use debuff removal spell so that he's not always perma-stunned from a fight?

The Ecdysiast4/4/2015, 4:51:48 PM1 votes

I agree with this. However, I think a full rework is in order. It's always pissed me off that the lore says her spell was to turn a bear into a teddy, not the other way around. So why the hell is she only able to break her spell every minute or so? I think she should be more along the lines of constantly having a bear, and using magic abilities to buff his AA's, aura, etc. THEN her ultimate could be putting him away for safety and unleashing some big firestorm or something.

Reikken4/4/2015, 5:37:43 PM1 votes

I'd be all for shifting power from Tibbers out of the initial burst and into the actual bear that gets summoned (that's already how I play her in Dominion anyway. rylai's rush Tibbers is pretty great) However, paring down the reliability of her CC would destroy everything she is.

SlushieDee4/4/2015, 8:05:55 PM1 votes

Or make managing Tibbers even more demanding, removing his starting burst, and increasing his aura damage. Additional changes could be made so that he does high basic attack damage and giving him high Armor and decent MR, so the playstyle revolves around trying to stay back and poke, while Tibbers rushes into fights and dishes out serious damage, kinda like having a bruiser for 45 seconds. His stats could even scale with Annie's AP. However, in order to balance this, it might be necessary to increase his gold value to about 150, but only for his killer, or make it so that Annie is penalized for Tibbers dying instead of timing out. This would make everyone's favorite shadow bear relevant in fights, while forcing Annie to make good strategic decisions about whether or not to bring him out.