Some AD Math...

Zullar · 2018-06-04T10:45:06.656Z

tldr; Lord Dominik's Regard has AD lethality damage out of control. These 8.11 new items & changes to LDR have boosted AD burst damage significantly. Lets look. With 3x lethality items + LDR you penetrate 83 armor basically doing true damage to every champ that doesn't build armor. For example lets add in full no-boot build. Conservatively you have 450AD (more with infernals, pot, gathering storm, buffs, etc.) Take a champ like Nocturne. His ult does 400+150% bonus AD --> 900 damage. His 1st auto will do 450(1+0.6 stormrazor + 0.2passive) + 200 (duskblade) + 236 (trinity force) = 1246 damage. Dark Harvest adds 310 more damage at 150 souls. So R+Auto = 900+1246+310=2456 damage... literally ult in and single auto attack and they die (I've done this in game and I get the "????" in all chat). Most squishies have 2000 life. You don't even need to Q or E them... just R + Auto. Take a champ like Miss Fortune. Her 1st auto will do 4501.6 + 450 (passive) + 200 (duskblade) + 184 (Trinity Force) + 313 (Dark Harvest @ 150) = 1919 damage... which is basically a 1shot. Realistically if they have full health you have to throw in a Q... but still Auto+Q = dead. Her ult also does 7,000 AOE ~true damage. No wonder she's the highest win rate champ in the game (54.5% at the moment) Zed's 1st auto will do 450x1.6(Stormrazor) + 312 (Dark Harvest @ 150 Stacks) +242 (Trinity Force) = 1274. Funny thing... Zed can miss all his abilities and still kill somebody with R + Auto (1274*1.55+450 = 2425 damage) These damage numbers are similar to 8.10... with 2 big differences. 1: With lethality items against an unarmed target Lord Dominik's adds 30% damage on 8.11 compared to 8.10 due to the change from bonus armor pen to total armor pen. On 8.10 a target would typically have about 30 armor left over after lethality was taken into account... but on 8.11 they are left with 0 armor. 2: Stormrazor adds ~270 more burst (depending on AD) In the history of league there's never been this much damage increase in 1 patch. The damage creep is real. I've never killed people with 1 auto attack before but I've done it a few times on 8.11. Not sure that's a good state for the game...

NyarlathοtepJun 4, 201812 votes

Second of all, magic damage dealers have been doing that for a LONG time and with much earlier powerspike

To be entirely fair, almost all magic damage dealers have better counterplay than "stay out of range". The only ones that can make use of sudden impact are those that have dashes, aka ap assassins. Ap assassins unlike ad ones, are literally USELESS when their kit is on cd. Ad ones can still aa and still hurt because aa scale with 100% of your ad. I would also want to add that ap assassins also tend to have mana, so they also have to manage their mana.

The others magic damage dealers, mages, have also cooldowns or mana costs or both. They also have more healthy counterplay than lets say someone like mf (that just finished duskblade i mean), where against mf you cant really dodge her aa that is empowered by duskblade.

bbQsauçeJun 4, 20183 votes

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GigglesOJun 5, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Go ahead downvote me for stating facts.

I think you meant to say the word opinions

ShablagooJun 5, 20183 votes

Why do facts get downvoted?

NyarlathοtepJun 5, 20182 votes

This is straight up bullshit, what's the counterplay to an akali? Or a vladimir? This is entirely your opinion and doesn't respect the reality of things. Zed has multiple skillshots for example.

I did say almost all. I mean yeah akali is pretty bullshit but at the very least she still has more counterplay than, lets say, lucian. At least pre 6. Oh and vlad actually has a decent healthy counterplay. Buy gw, play safe during the early (if you cant kill him), take advantage of his q when its on cooldown, he is pretty immobile outside of movement speed buffs.

Yes, only champions who have dashes can make use of the sudden impact rune (duh), but even if you're a mage with no dashes, you're gonna do true damage or almost true damage to any ranged carry in the game. Remember that a ranged champ's MR starts at 30 and scales up to 38.5, without sudden impact you still have 33 mpen, worst case scenario being lv 18 ranged carry, they'd be left with 5.5 MR which equals to a 6% damage reduction. This of course without taking void staff into account.

Like i said early, mages heavily rely on cooldown. After that, when their spells are on cooldown, they cant do jack shit.

This is true, but AP scales harder into the late game compared to AD because of rabadon's deathcap

Deathcap? Really? If the enemy has any sort of hard cc and an assassin you will pretty much forced to go zhonyas and maybe banshee's. You are forced to also always buy sorcerer's boots (3 item slots down), lichbane (if your burst includes aa) (4 item slots down), morello (5 item slots down) and lastly void stuff (IF they have bought mr). Bonus difficulties if you are a jungler ap assassin. Oh also no ap dont scale harder into the late compared to ad ones. Here have some statistics. Nida has (relatively to her early winrate that is) low http://champion.gg/champion/Nidalee/Jungle ~50% Kayn has (again relatively to his early winrate) high http://champion.gg/champion/Kayn/Jungle (though it doesnt specify whether its s.a. or rhaast) ~51% Shaco has high winrate (which now that i look at it, its weird, how the fuck does he have such a big winrate at late?!) http://champion.gg/champion/Shaco/Jungle ~56% Nocturne has low winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Nocturne/Jungle ~49% Evelynn has high winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Evelynn/Jungle ~53% Fizz has (relatively to his early winrate) high winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Fizz/Middle ~52% Talon has (relatively to his early winrate) low winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Talon/Middle ~49% Akali has (relatively to her early) garbage winrate winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Akali/Middle ~47% Ekko has (relatively to his mid, 40 min) garbage winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Ekko/Middle ~47% Zed has good late winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Zed/Middle ~51-52% Leblanc has a steady 50% winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Leblanc/Middle ~51% Katarina has (relatively to her mid winrate) low winrate http://champion.gg/champion/Katarina/Middle ~49% kassadin is more or less the same as lb http://champion.gg/champion/Kassadin/Middle (late game winrate that is) ~51% Rengar and kha have good late http://champion.gg/champion/Rengar/Jungle (~52%), http://champion.gg/champion/Khazix/Jungle (~52%)

So no i wouldnt really say that ap assassin scale better to late.

This is some other nonsense. The only manaless AD assassins are Zed and Rengar, while Talon, Kha, Nocturne, Kayn, Wukong & co. all have mana.

Oke i phrased it wrong. My initial point of that quote was to just say that, ap assassins have to manage their mana careful otherwise they risk going oom and being harmless unlike ad ones.

Every non-manaless champion in the game has cooldowns and manacosts.

Indeed. But burst from duskblade or stormrazor is so low that its practically 0. And compared to adc, mages and assassins on general, are limited by cooldown. Adc are limited by their range. But should you go in their range, you are in a world of being unable to avoid their burst (if it is on hit which it will be).

MF on the other hand doesn't have CC nor utility compared to mages. How about not going near bushes when she's missing and you don't know where she is? That is still counterplay. Also mages have the range advantage and most of the time if you hit your CC you instakill the ADC.

What if i told you, because of that said reason almost all mages have cc that can be avoided with a single sidestep?! Shocking i know right. But seriously now, that of not going close to bushes, is not counterplay to mf. Thats generally a counterplay. Besides you dont need to go there to be chunked. You just have to be within her 550 range. And like i said earlier, the cc that mages offer has shittons of counterplay. Which is sidestep. After you buy boots it becomes even easier. And unless mages buy deathcap, they will deal significant less damage late. And no mages cant always buy deathcap thanks to the plethora of things that can kill them.

bbQsauçeJun 5, 20181 votes

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NyarlathοtepJun 5, 2018

Lucian is irrelevant to the discussion because he doesn't build armor pen (at least i don't think). He's not a lethality assassin. Also Akali has little counterplay even pre-6 if you're melee.

Well i just wanted to point out that you can at least bully her. On the other hand, you cant bully adcs.

There's no counterplay to a vlad E-Flash-R-E-Q-Ignite-Electrocute and can 100-0 most mid laners at 6.

Everything will sound op if you sentence it like this. Here, there is no counterplay to a syndra if she q-w(with the same ball)-e-electrocute-ignite-q-r and she will 100-0 most squishy midlaners at level 6 (or pretty much any level).

Really? That's your answer? People don't build Dcap because they have to build both zhonyas and banshees

Not really. My answer was that, you cant build deathcap if there is a very big chance that you will die before making use of it. If there is a someone (lets say an assassin) that goes to suicide in order to kill me, deathcap is not a good choice to buy. (Its far better to lose an assassin than a mage)

You never get both zhonya's and banshee's in the same game.

If i am against a fizz and kha you bet your ass im going to buy both of them. Yes one is more than enough, as long as my team reacts on time, and i sure as fk i cant trust my team.

According to your logic then AD assassins never builds LDR because they need the slots for hexdrinker and GA every game. Doesn't make sense.

They dont have to buy both of them for one good reason. Why would anyone buy hexdrinker if he can sidestep all damage? (provided they can ofc).

Are we talking about damage or what? Just because a champion has awesome damage doesn't mean he will win more late game, likewise if you have bad damage doesn't mean you will win less in the late game. Statistics are irrelevant here.

Indeed damage is not what decides whether a champ will have good or bad late game. But you said that ap assassins scale better late game, which (unless i'm wrong) translates to, ap assassins have better late game than ad ones. But you are wrong because there are assassins (both ad and ap) that have good and bad late game. So no statistics arent irrelevant here.

And what if i told you, that because of the abundance of CDR in the game mages can just try again in the next 10 seconds, with the safety of range and not committing anything?! What a shocker.

You are absolutely right about the cdr. But thanks to riot's awesome decisions late game mages have less mana! So while they can do it the next 10 seconds, they risk of going oom and being unable to help in a teamfight! So no no mage spams like that their spells. (at least those that are rational)

Yeah but if you see her you can wait the duskblade passive to run out. He can't like come out of the fog of war and run at you can she?

~~Dusblade passive to runout?~~ Nevermind apparently somehow i didnt know that i feel like an idiot. But oh well now that i learnt this things might be a bit better.

Yeah but you're safe while throwing your abilities from range and can just try again in a few seconds. But when an assassin goes in he is committed to the fight.

Well i never said that assassins shouldnt have burst. As much as i hate them (and their whole fantasy) i totally cool with assassins to have big burst (that is on a basic level counterable). But when adcs start to pump that level of burst thats when things go to hell.

This is straight up lies. Mages always buy deathcap, adding a zhonya's to your build doesn't prevent you from buying deathcap.

Indeed a zhonyas wont prevent it. But when i need some extra hp then ofc and i will have to choose between extra firepower and extra survivability.

ZullarJun 4, 20181 votes

84 lethality is S7 does a lot less than 83 lethality now because theres no easy way to get armor from the new rune system. S7 almost everybody ran armor runes.

You know this but are cherry picking data...

And in my post I used the same example items and runes on all champs for consistency to drive a point.

And what are you defending anyhow... do you think damage is OK right now? I think it’s too high across the board since Runes Reforged (AD and AP).

bbQsauçeJun 4, 20181 votes

[deleted]

ZullarJun 4, 20182 votes

You are using flat armor runes in your example. I think the breakeven point for armor seals was very early... like lv6 so flats are only better levels 1-5 and worse at 7+. I always used scaling armor seals which gave 26 armor at lv18.

bbQsauçeJun 4, 20181 votes

[deleted]

ZullarJun 4, 20182 votes

I never took flat armors in my life. With a breakeven at lv6 where people like Zed got their ult I gladly sacrificed a small 7 of armor at lv1 to gain 17 more on the back end. Stops you from getting 1shot once he got all his lethality items.

Listen I don't know what your'e arguing against. It seems you are just being argumentative. Here's what I said in the OP let me know where you stand.

Do you think damage (Across the board AD and AP) is... 1: Too low 2: Just right 3: Too high

8.11 changed LDR which is up to a 29% damage increase for lethality builds vs squishies. It also added Stormrazor which adds ~270 upfront burst. I said this is the biggest damage increase that AD lethality burst champs have ever seen in a single patch. Do you disagree? If so please point to a different patch where they were buffed more.

I think it's silly that Zed can miss all his abilities and still kill somebody with 1 auto attack. Do you think that's a good design?

I think it's silly that MF can kill somebody with 1 auto attack. Do you think that's a good design?

I think it's silly that MF can do 7000 ~true AOE damage. Do you think that's a good design?

Not sure what you are arguing against here... all I hear is "but mages...". Yeah I think AP burst is too high too. Damage (and mobility) has crept up across the board. This patch was the biggest damage creep I've ever seen so I'm making a post about it. What's the problem with that?

The fact that I can pop on a champ like Nocturne that I've never played before with no idea what I'm doing and just start 1 shotting people is broken. Even if it's not OP (I kill them, but I have no escapes and they kill me and it becomes a 4v4) I still think it's bad design because the person I'm killing literally dies from R + auto. Do you think Nocturne R + auto should kill somebody?

bbQsauçeJun 4, 20181 votes

[deleted]

ZullarJun 4, 20181 votes

I never said Stormrazor was a good rush item. op.gg doesn't show Stormrazor because it only shows first few 3 items where lethality is often better. But you can buy Stormrazor as one of your last items for the 1shot potential. The 70 AD is nice and the +~270 upfront crit damage is nice. It's a significant burst damage boost over other items even though it's not a great 1st item for assassins.

You say it's the same as S7? I never remember doing 1944+608 = 2552 damage with 1 auto attack back then. This is in the practice tool with 3 infernals + pot + 300 souls. In a real game its closer to 2000 on your first auto attack... but still. https://imgur.com/a/ATmlp6N#gDS3h66

GigglesOJun 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The 70 AD is nice

Somehow it squeaked by with 30% attack speed and a guaranteed crit...

GigglesOJun 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Good for you, but you were the exception, not the rule.

Woah buddy, there were even a few of us that took 10 flat at level 1 with 25 scaling...

Lets not forget my favorite rune page which was 46armor and 43 MR at level 18... <-- I made it to diamond using that page...

Just because people didn't go outside what the pros did doesn't mean it wasn't viable.

ZullarJun 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Also in your math you're taking dark harvest on champs like Zed or MF which doesn't make sense, plus, going all of those damage items in one build doesn't make sense either, because late game as a squishy assassin you need at least a defensive item like GA. Stormrazor isn't even bought on assassins are there are better items. Very unrealistic scenarios.

You say it's unrealistic but I've done it a few games with MF and Nocturne. With Nocturne literally I just clicked on somebody and they died and it's instantly a 5v4. It's funny shit. I never even played Nocturne before and ended my first game with like 500 souls and 26 kills.

But my point is that there has already been significant relative damage increase with Runes Reforged. Everybody kills everybody really fast now and I thought it was already a problem on 8.10. On 8.11 it exacerbated this excessive damage by giving more damage and burst with Lord Dominik's Regard (up to 29% damage increase) and Stormrazor (~+270 upfront damage).

Do you think damage right now is...? 1: Too Low 2: Just right 3: Too high

bbQsauçeJun 4, 20183 votes

[deleted]

ZullarJun 4, 20182 votes

Fair enough. I really don't care how they bring damage in line as long as these <0.5s deaths stop :P

GigglesOJun 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

First of all, lethality assassins were able to do true damage to people who didn't build any armor in S7 as well, but nobody complained.

Oh you better fucking believe that I complained. I've been complaining since at least the season 1 healing meta nerf. And then the change where they removed fon and 1500 hp warmogs... I've been complaining a long time buddy.

Some AD Math...

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