MMR Manipulation to Have ~100% Win Rate

Zullar·Jan 11, 2016·43 votes·7,307 views

Just played a team that was 3 ranks higher than us (they were Diamonds and we are ~Silver). They absolutely murdered us in every lane. Right before they destroyed our nexus they just surrendered. They seem to be manipulating their MMR so they can just stomp low ranked people.

Is this allowed? There is no report option for this.

If anybody at Riot reads this I'd suggest adding a game status check during surrender to check for manipulation. i.e. compare gold, levels, towers, and num players alive to see which team has the upper hand at the moment of surrender. If the surrendering team has an advantage then flag it... and if happens repeatedly then take action.

97 Comments

ZullarJan 11, 201615 votes

You trolls try so hard.

They win every game because they have a 3 tier advantage over their opponent. They'll never lose lane. They get to stomp everybody. A W or L at the end doesn't matter... it's unranked.

Similarly I don't care if I get a "win" at the end of being pummeled horribly for twenty minutes strait. What fun is that?

Riot intends to match people of equal skill levels. This is a manipulation of the system IMO.

KaiokoJan 11, 20165 votes

There is no system manipulation - if they're MMR is that low then they will be punished for it in rank and demoted, if your MMR is that high then you'll gain 30 LP for every 10 that you lose. If it is unranked they could've easily queued up with people of a much lower tier therefore it balances out. None of it is system manipulation.

ZullarJan 11, 20167 votes

{quoted}

There is no system manipulation - if they're MMR is that low then they will be punished for it in rank and demoted, if your MMR is that high then you'll gain 30 LP for every 10 that you lose. If it is unranked they could've easily queued up with people of a much lower tier therefore it balances out. None of it is system manipulation.

I'm talking about unranked, LP doesn't apply. And their hidden MMR is Silver, just like us, because they /surrender games right before they win. This keeps their hidden MMR about 3 tiers lower than it would actually be... allowing Diamond skill level players to smash up on Silver skill level players.

LF AnnieJan 11, 20164 votes

idk how u can be mad about a free win.

ZullarJan 11, 201614 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-01-11T17:04:12.419+0000)

idk how u can be mad about a free win.

Getting smashed for 20 minutes isn't fun. Who cares if the screen says victory or defeat if your whole team gets destroyed.

LF AnnieJan 11, 20162 votes

so you're mad because you are not good enough to not get smashed, and feel people that smash shouldn't have the right to ff?

ZullarJan 11, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T17:45:19.681+0000)

so you're mad because you are not good enough to not get smashed, and feel people that smash shouldn't have the right to ff?

Everybody, no matter how good, will lose if they play a team that is 3 tiers higher. Bronzes lose to Plats Silvers lose to Diamonds Golds lose to Challenger

LF AnnieJan 11, 20162 votes

way over generalization. food for thought, most high elo's are only high elo on very few champs/roles. i had a diamond bc yesterday in my game who didn't play bot lane usually, sure he knew what items to build, and where to go, but he was a worse support than i have found in bronze. why? because he didn't spend most of his time learning bot lane, but rather a solo lane.

high elo isn't something that guarantees wins, its something that shows mastery over a small portion of the game. i doubt there are more than 5 diamond players that play diamond skill in every role.

ZullarJan 11, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T18:01:25.858+0000)

way over generalization. food for thought, most high elo's are only high elo on very few champs/roles. i had a diamond bc yesterday in my game who didn't play bot lane usually, sure he knew what items to build, and where to go, but he was a worse support than i have found in bronze. why? because he didn't spend most of his time learning bot lane, but rather a solo lane.

high elo isn't something that guarantees wins, its something that shows mastery over a small portion of the game. i doubt there are more than 5 diamond players that play diamond skill in every role.

I'll agree with you on that.

But I still say what these people did is a blatant exploitation of the MMR system to be matched against much lower skill level players so they can stomp them.

LF AnnieJan 11, 20162 votes

it might be, but what other benefit do they gain beside padded stats and the lolz of FF'n a game they had won? there is literally no benefit for them, so why get mad over them doing it? just move on to the next game and get good enough that it wont happen again.

ZullarJan 11, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T18:34:42.602+0000)

it might be, but what other benefit do they gain beside padded stats and the lolz of FF'n a game they had won? there is literally no benefit for them, so why get mad over them doing it? just move on to the next game and get good enough that it wont happen again.

You can't get good enough. If they tank their rating intentionally they'll always be much better than you.

And it's not like they just did this once, they probably do it every game to keep MMR low. So they didn't just ruin our game, them diamonds probably continually pummel silvers all day long.

LF AnnieJan 11, 20162 votes

so what if they do? if you eventually get good enough, and they're still silver, you wont play against them anymore.

the point that you're missing is that even if they play at a higher level, riot will not make them not FF if they want to FF.

ZullarJan 11, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T18:56:28.979+0000)

so what if they do? if you eventually get good enough, and they're still silver, you wont play against them anymore.

the point that you're missing is that even if they play at a higher level, riot will not make them not FF if they want to FF.

But Riot could have a script that evaluates the status of the game to see which team is winning by looking at gold lead, tower advantage, inhib advantage, # players alive, etc. There are 3 ways I can think of to combat this MMR exploitation.

1: Riot could prevent FF if you have significant advantage 2: If you FF repeatedly with a significant advantage you should be warned/banned. 3: Post-game option to report opponent (i.e. another category like "Verbal Abuse", this would could be "Intentional MMR Tanking by Forfeit")

LF AnnieJan 11, 20162 votes

my question to you is: Would riot be better off investing thousands of dollars in a system to stop a very MINOR portion of the community FF'n their games, or spending it on developing more content for the game that the MAJORITY of players will care about?

ZullarJan 11, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=00060000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T19:37:01.378+0000)

my question to you is: Would riot be better off investing thousands of dollars in a system to stop a very MINOR portion of the community FF'n their games, or spending it on developing more content for the game that the MAJORITY of players will care about?

Integrity > content IMO. But you could make an argument either way.

This post may get the issue on their radar at least.

pinkyblossomJan 12, 20161 votes

Its not just that, the lack of constant play style in low elo is the biggest disadvantage to a high elo player. He cant account for the majority of absurdity with which he will be surprised by.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n3f5kn7V-as-a-diamond-silver-elo-is-surprisingly-hard

ZullarJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Its not just that, the lack of constant play style in low elo is the biggest disadvantage to a high elo player. He cant account for the majority of absurdity with which he will be surprised by.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n3f5kn7V-as-a-diamond-silver-elo-is-surprisingly-hard

It would have to be 4 or 5 players playing together to force a surrender vote to manipulate the MMR system.

LF AnnieJan 12, 20161 votes

i still dont see how its mmr manipulation if they're losing from ff.

ZullarJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=00060000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T19:32:01.803+0000)

i still dont see how its mmr manipulation if they're losing from ff.

You don't see how intentionally tanking MMR so Diamond skill level players are in the Silver level so they obliterate opponents every game is manipulation? Come on... I think you are just trolling at this point.

LF AnnieJan 12, 20161 votes

no, because if they're in diamond and they're losing games at silver mmr they're losing TONS of LP nd not gaining shit if they win.

ZullarJan 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=0006000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-12T19:57:27.538+0000)

no, because if they're in diamond and they're losing games at silver mmr they're losing TONS of LP nd not gaining shit if they win.

I'm talking about unranked.

LF AnnieJan 13, 20161 votes

i just really dont see why you care. either way, what does it matter if you got smashed one game, and they ff, you prob wont have it happen more than 1ce a year, if that.

It Hertz When IPJan 12, 20161 votes

I just farm for IP these days, so... meh.

KaiokoJan 11, 20164 votes

I should add too - MMR isn't affected by wins or losses. It's affected by your performance in those actually games. Yes typically if you perform well you end up winning but I've had several instances where I lost several games in a row and my MMR actually went up.

ZullarJan 11, 201629 votes

{quoted}

I should add too - MMR isn't affected by wins or losses. It's affected by your performance in those actually games. Yes typically if you perform well you end up winning but I've had several instances where I lost several games in a row and my MMR actually went up.

No it's not. Only W or L.

KaiokoJan 11, 20162 votes

I have a source from Riot that agrees with me https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide#q7

What do you have other than your own assumptions?

ZullarJan 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I have a source from Riot that agrees with me https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide#q7

What do you have other than your own assumptions?

Past performance = Win or Loss (not A+ or B- performance)

Their wording has some ambiguity.

SasogwaJan 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I have a source from Riot that agrees with me https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide#q7

What do you have other than your own assumptions?

Wtf. I read and it explains that ranked team MMR is based on your soloQ MMR. It doesn't in ANY CASE say that

MMR isn't affected by wins or losses. It's affected by your performance in those actually games. Yes typically if you perform well you end up winning but I've had several instances where I lost several games in a row and my MMR actually went up.

(what you said)

BestTristMyHausJan 11, 20167 votes

{quoted}

I have a source from Riot that agrees with me https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide#q7

What do you have other than your own assumptions?

Here's from your link:

WHY DON'T YOU INCLUDE OTHER DETAILS, LIKE HOW MANY KILLS OR DEATHS I HAD, TO DETERMINE MY RATING? If we did, it would encourage players to focus on killing other players instead of strategically winning the game. For instance, players who choose supporting champions would be adversely affected because they are not expected to earn kills. By putting as many measurements and incentives as possible on specifically winning a game, we avoid side behaviors that aren't as fun and confuse the rating process.

Also:

Step 1: Determine strength:

If a player is queued alone, the strength is determined by his personal matchmaking rating (referred to as MMR from here on out) and > number of wins for that particular queue. If the player is queued with a pre-made team, the system will adjust the MMR of the team accordingly. In most cases, we have found pre-made teams out-perform teams composed of unconnected players.

ZullarJan 11, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mahou Girl Mami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=0007000000000002,timestamp=2016-01-11T20:21:50.815+0000)

Here's from your link:

Also:

Ah thanks I couldn't find it.

Kaioko won't show up again now that you owned him :P
He'll go and troll other threads with his misinformation...

KaiokoJan 11, 20161 votes

I never said that kills is what determines your performance in that game. They definitely don't have set up that way. It takes into consideration a lot of things and caters those things based on the champion and role you end up playing in.

You don't have to believe me honestly I don't mind. Quite honestly with you being in gold and me in diamond we'll most likely not interact.

Vistha KaiJan 11, 20169 votes

The link you provided blatantly says only the ultimate outcome of a match affects the MMR.

You can get 10 pentakills, place 200 wards, get 150 assists, but your MMR will be just as good as if you were 0/10/0 and AFK.

You are presented with a fact by game developers. There is nothing left to believe or not about it.

ZullarJan 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=0007000000000002000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-11T21:56:18.242+0000)

The link you provided blatantly says only the ultimate outcome of a match affects the MMR.

You can get 10 pentakills, place 200 wards, get 150 assists, but your MMR will be just as good as if you were 0/10/0 and AFK.

You are presented with a fact by game developers. There is nothing left to believe or not about it.

People like him can't ever be wrong. I know the type. It doesn't compute in their heads, just let it go.

To recap: Winning/losing is the ONLY thing that makes hidden MMR go up/down. K/D/A or A+/D- performance does **NOT **matter.

Your effective MMR that you are matched with is some function of various things (Riot doesn't disclose formula) -Hidden MMR -If you are solo, or with friends (if you join with friends it boosts your effective MMR so you play harder opponents) -Your past performance in a role (at least with teambuilder). I think -Your team comp (I don't understand the details of this, but Riot stated it) -maybe your past performance on a champion (I'm not sure)

So even though these diamond players that were stomping us probably had A+ ratings because they were 15 and 0, their hidden MMR would go down because they /surrender 1sec before nexus died. Next game they probably stomped even more cause they played against lower MMR than us.

Vistha KaiJan 11, 20164 votes

It's just... I take this wicked pleasure from people like the guy acting all superior while being wrong at nearly everything they say.

ZullarJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=000700000000000200000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-11T23:28:40.943+0000)

It's just... I take this wicked pleasure from people like the guy acting all superior while being wrong at nearly everything they say.

Vistha KaiJan 12, 20161 votes

Plus it's also a nice exercise/game called "How long you can talk with an idiot in a civilized manner?"

Potato DocJan 12, 20161 votes

Actually there is one other thing, if you leave a game during champ select you do lose some MMR but not quite as much, when done at 0 LP it can cause someone to shoot under 0 LP (ex. -3 lp) but stay that that league, by losing a match your score (if under the 5 match safety net) defaults back to 0. Or if you win the LP you gain is x2 until its above 0. Thus you can hover at a bracket while losing MMR. Only other way though

(okay im not super sure on the numbers but its the idea behind it.) Ive had a friend in bronze elo face a diamond 4 while the rest of the enemy were bronze, plus ive seen a few other people complain about this over the years. Although it takes a lot of effort and is easily bannable to do this so its not seen often.

Sneakyy XDJan 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Actually there is one other thing, if you leave a game during champ select you do lose some MMR

That's for ranked, not normals.

Vistha KaiJan 12, 20161 votes

You don't lose ANY MMR from dodging champion select.

Dar RaksadaJan 12, 20164 votes

Actually, doesn't that only lose lp, not mmr?

Vistha KaiJan 12, 20161 votes

MMR isn't LP.

When you quit durning champion select you lose LP, but not MMR.

LP is nothing but a fancy interface like Windows, while MMR is the actual operating system like MS-DOS.

You can't be banned for tanking MMR(your Diamond vs Bronze paragraph). You never could and most likely never will be banned for that.

FioraWillCarryJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lVNlIJEE,comment-id=0007000000000002000000000001000000010002,timestamp=2016-01-12T14:54:32.985+0000)

LP is nothing but a fancy interface like Windows, while MMR is the actual operating system like MS-DOS.

You still running Windows 98 ? Wow...lmao

Windows stopped using the MS-DOS kernel since XP.

Silver FluffenbuJan 12, 20161 votes

unnecessary

ZullarJan 11, 20164 votes

OK I think I need to explain the match making system. Every player has a hidden match making rating MMR. If you win it goes up, if you lose it goes down. There is no way to see what your hidden MMR is. It also has nothing to do with your performance (A+ or B-) as stated by Riot repeatedly.

Unranked MMR is separate than ranked MMR. So these diamond skill lever players try their hardest in ranked and achieved diamond. They also try their hardest in unranked, but /surrender before they win. This tanks their hidden MMR in unranked to about the silver level. This manipulation of the system allows diamond skill level players to be matched against silver skill level players in unranked. This gross imbalance allows them to utterly destroy their opponents.

If you guys weren't trying to hard to troll me I think you'd all admit this is an exploit of the match making system. Anyhow, hope a red reads this.

ZullarJan 11, 20163 votes

As for the reasoning why Riot doesn't use A+/B-/D+ performance doesn't affect your MMR or LP:

Riot stated that if they had performance affect your ranking then people would play in order to get the best performance, instead of playing to win the game. Maybe you just go for safe high K/D/A champ (i.e. Lux) and leave your team to die when things get hairy. You can fairly easily get an A rating even though you lose the game. Nobody would want to play a champ like Leona that gets no kills and has no escapes because your rating is rarely gonna be A+.

Riot stated by only having W or L affect your ranking then this forces players to do whatever gives them the best win chance, which is what Riot wants players to do.

I tried to find the Riot posts but couldn't. They stated this a while back.

ZGM DazzlingJan 12, 20163 votes

Just because they surrendered after their game doesn't mean they are trying to manipulate the system lmfao.

I do that with my friends all the time for shits and giggles.

AnidanJan 12, 20161 votes

Also it won't result in anything resembling a 100% win-rate either.. To maintain their position of beating on people on a much lower tier than them means they'd have to maintain their 50% win-rate equilibrium there instead of somewhere higher.

ZullarJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Also it won't result in anything resembling a 100% win-rate either.. To maintain their position of beating on people on a much lower tier than them means they'd have to maintain their 50% win-rate equilibrium there instead of somewhere higher.

I think our terminology is getting us confused. I agree 50% of time they will have "victory" and 50% of the time they will have "defeat", but they will "win" 95% of their games (and by win I mean win lane, destroy towers, kill opponents, and pressure the enemy nexus).

Lets say (making up example numbers) Diamonds have a 50% chance of beating Diamonds Diamonds have a 70% chance of beating Plat Diamonds have a 90% chance of beating Golds Diamonds have a 95% chance of beating Silvers

If this diamond skill level team intentionally tanks their MMR by surrendering 1sec before they kill nexus so their hidden MMR is somewhere in the silver skill range then they will "win" 95% of their games. They obliterate their silver lane opponents, the score is like 40 to 2, and they never lose a tower. The only time their MMR goes up is if the enemy team surrenders before they can.

AL000Jan 12, 20162 votes

this MM system is completely broken and riot is lazy their ass off...

thats why we have to wait for patch.... too many abused players right now...

CrazyDiamôndJan 11, 20161 votes

By any chance was this Team Ranked or Solo Q? Team Ranked has a different calculation of MMR. In team ranked doesnt matter if you are Diamond or Bronze, you start with the same MMR as a team. You can get matched vs full diamonds or full bronzes.