....they'll gut him before they touch their precious 
etc., champions with disgusting pick and win rates who have been dominating their respective roles for months if not years?
Or give piddly love taps to 
etc. that don't actually address their problems?
And let's not forget about a baker's dozen of champions that have been sitting in the gutter for months now?
etc.
Priorities.
PermabannedGaren11 votes[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEHWngwg,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-08T20:50:15.772+0000)
....they'll gut him before they touch their precious
Healthy champion, but could use some power trimmed sure.
The lethality buffs have already dethroned this champion, there are more pressing ADCs.
This is the most nerfed champion in the history of the game. Nothing ousts her from her throne. Does need a rework, and I wish it was given more priority.
Objectively too strong, needs nerfs, yeah.
Literally was nerfed on the same patch Malzahar was.
It also warrants mentioning that none of these champions were as unhealthy and dominating as support Malzahar.
etc., champions with disgusting pick and win rates who have been dominating their respective roles for months if not years?
Read above, quite a few aren't dominating anymore.
Or give piddly love taps to
His melee form all-in damage is being lowered, which was his main problem. He did far too much damage in a man-fight for a champion who can harass from range and deny enemy engages.
Has been nerfed, has more along the way, isn't as dominant as Malz support, etc.
Is performing much worse than he was before the nerfs to the burst of his ultimate and to his core item.
Has this guy actually been nerfed recently? Fuck Mao though sure.
I'm not a fan of the Poppy nerfs, but she is objectively quite a bit weaker now. I'd rather they make her less oppressively tanky for how little gold she spends to make her so.
Hahahah, what?
One of Yasuo's most bitched about aspects was how strong his early game was despite how good he was late game. Riot then gave his early game a big nerf (with no compensation), making him overall much weaker, but this didn't address his "problems"? What would you have suggested? Removing his crit passive?
And let's not forget about a baker's dozen of champions that have been sitting in the gutter for months now?
Right where he belongs. Wait for a rework, because this champion's kit is fundamentally weak on several levels while being incredibly broken in others. He can't be strong.
Azir's kit is so fundamentally perfect for a mid lane mage that when he's viable, he is the only option. He can't be allowed to be good before he's reworked.
Literally getting some changes next patch, though as a former Cho main yeah this dude needs a rework. His kit is so weak.
Yeah what's happened to Fiddle is bullshit. He was the biggest casualty of the jungle changes, Riot needs to do something for him asap.
Read Azir. She can't be allowed to be strong.
Kindred is, first of all, not actually doing that badly right now. She's not great, but hardly horrible like the other champions I've addressed so far. She's also frankly a failed design. She is a character whose late game scaling is dependent on how well she does early game due to her stacking mechanic, and unlike with guys like Nasus or Veigar it is much harder to get stacks as the game goes on for her if she didn't already do well early game. If she can reliably win early, she's broken. If she can't, she's mediocre at best.
Like Kindred, Morde isn't doing as bad as the others, and his rework is probably one of the most abysmal failures the game has had. He definitely needs another rework, and I'd like it to be after Galio and Urgot's.
It wasn't that long ago when Nunu buffs made him the undisputed god king of the jungle actually. I'd imagine the new jungle has not been kind to him.
I miss top lane Tahm.
I mean, this champion was hotfixed after Rylai's was nerfed to have more power, but yeah she could use some more help.
Literally buffed last night, wtf lol.
Blakiepug2 votesHealthy champion, but could use some power trimmed sure.
The lethality buffs have already dethroned this champion, there are more pressing ADCs.
This is the most nerfed champion in the history of the game. Nothing ousts her from her throne. Does need a rework, and I wish it was given more priority.
Objectively too strong, needs nerfs, yeah.
Literally was nerfed on the same patch Malzahar was.
It also warrants mentioning that none of these champions were as unhealthy and dominating as support Malzahar.
Read above, quite a few aren't dominating anymore.
His melee form all-in damage is being lowered, which was his main problem. He did far too much damage in a man-fight for a champion who can harass from range and deny enemy engages.
Has been nerfed, has more along the way, isn't as dominant as Malz support, etc.
Is performing much worse than he was before the nerfs to the burst of his ultimate and to his core item.
Has this guy actually been nerfed recently? Fuck Mao though sure.
I'm not a fan of the Poppy nerfs, but she is objectively quite a bit weaker now. I'd rather they make her less oppressively tanky for how little gold she spends to make her so.
Hahahah, what?
One of Yasuo's most bitched about aspects was how strong his early game was despite how good he was late game. Riot then gave his early game a big nerf (with no compensation), making him overall much weaker, but this didn't address his "problems"? What would you have suggested? Removing his crit passive?
Right where he belongs. Wait for a rework, because this champion's kit is fundamentally weak on several levels while being incredibly broken in others. He can't be strong.
Azir's kit is so fundamentally perfect for a mid lane mage that when he's viable, he is the only option. He can't be allowed to be good before he's reworked.
Literally getting some changes next patch, though as a former Cho main yeah this dude needs a rework. His kit is so weak.
Yeah what's happened to Fiddle is bullshit. He was the biggest casualty of the jungle changes, Riot needs to do something for him asap.
Read Azir. She can't be allowed to be strong.
Kindred is, first of all, not actually doing that badly right now. She's not great, but hardly horrible like the other champions I've addressed so far. She's also frankly a failed design. She is a character whose late game scaling is dependent on how well she does early game due to her stacking mechanic, and unlike with guys like Nasus or Veigar it is much harder to get stacks as the game goes on for her if she didn't already do well early game. If she can reliably win early, she's broken. If she can't, she's mediocre at best.
Like Kindred, Morde isn't doing as bad as the others, and his rework is probably one of the most abysmal failures the game has had. He definitely needs another rework, and I'd like it to be after Galio and Urgot's.
It wasn't that long ago when Nunu buffs made him the undisputed god king of the jungle actually. I'd imagine the new jungle has not been kind to him.
I miss top lane Tahm.
I mean, this champion was hotfixed after Rylai's was nerfed to have more power, but yeah she could use some more help.
Literally buffed last night, wtf lol.
Let's get one thing straight. The recent Yasuo nerfs did have compensation in the form of an AD ratio. It was still an overall nerfs, but he did indeed receive compensation buffs. Champions like and did not get this pleasure of compensation buffs and were nerfed much more harshly.
I'd also like to comment on Azir specifically. Many of his functionalities were removed before Riot finally brought down his damage which was causing him to be so oppressive, such as his W tower damage ability. In my personal opinion, Azir was not as oppressive as people make him out to be and there have been bigger abominations such as Syndra who did not recieve anywhere near the same treatment as Azir. Reverting some of these nerfs would be a good way to give him power back, especially since they were not an issue to begin with. Riot talks about Azir being an overloaded champion, but let's be honest champions like Jhin have way more in their kit and are allowed to boast a 52% winrate and up for a whole year, whereas Azir is stuck at a 41% winrate the whole past year (highest he hit I think was 43%). Tahm Kench is in a similar state to Azir but many do not notice as often because support Nunu is always reported as the worst support and so many miss the fact that Kench has had the second lowest support winrate for the full past year as well, ever since he was gutted and given nothing in return.
Paroe2 votesLet's get one thing straight. The recent Yasuo nerfs did have compensation in the form of an AD ratio. It was still an overall nerfs, but he did indeed receive compensation buffs. Champions like
I'd also like to comment on Azir specifically. Many of his functionalities were removed before Riot finally brought down his damage which was causing him to be so oppressive, such as his W tower damage ability. In my personal opinion, Azir was not as oppressive as people make him out to be and there have been bigger abominations such as Syndra who did not recieve anywhere near the same treatment as Azir. Reverting some of these nerfs would be a good way to give him power back, especially since they were not an issue to begin with. Riot talks about Azir being an overloaded champion, but let's be honest champions like Jhin have way more in their kit and are allowed to boast a 52% winrate and up for a whole year, whereas Azir is stuck at a 41% winrate the whole past year (highest he hit I think was 43%). Tahm Kench is in a similar state to Azir but many do not notice as often because support Nunu is always reported as the worst support and so many miss the fact that Kench has had the second lowest support winrate for the full past year as well, ever since he was gutted and given nothing in return.
Its unfortunate riot has a hard on for compound nerfs. They dont seem to realize that nerfs are multiplicative in terms of actual champion strength and not additive... For example; Malzahar will be nerfed in two aspects in ONE PATCH. Thats a compound nerf; his ability as a mid laner is reduced even further to the point where malzahar doesnt have a place in the game and his ability to do damage alone is alredy abysmal. the changes are WAY to much and very much so knee-jerk. He, like azir, is already fairly clunky to play. The changes will just add to that clunkiness. They might as well make it so he can only have one voidling per cooldown at this point, because he cant use them for damage.
Blakiepug1 votesIts unfortunate riot has a hard on for compound nerfs. They dont seem to realize that nerfs are multiplicative in terms of actual champion strength and not additive... For example; Malzahar will be nerfed in two aspects in ONE PATCH. Thats a compound nerf; his ability as a mid laner is reduced even further to the point where malzahar doesnt have a place in the game and his ability to do damage alone is alredy abysmal. the changes are WAY to much and very much so knee-jerk. He, like azir, is already fairly clunky to play. The changes will just add to that clunkiness. They might as well make it so he can only have one voidling per cooldown at this point, because he cant use them for damage.
Yeah compound nerfs suck, especailly when they are only used on my favorite champions... :(
PermabannedGaren4 votesLet's get one thing straight. The recent Yasuo nerfs did have compensation in the form of an AD ratio. It was still an overall nerfs, but he did indeed receive compensation buffs. Champions like
No, it's just a nerf. The AD ratio just makes it slightly less of a nerf than it could have been. His E does less damage at every stage of the game barring an unrealistically high AD build, which makes it purely a nerf.
Blakiepug1 votesNo, it's just a nerf. The AD ratio just makes it slightly less of a nerf than it could have been. His E does less damage at every stage of the game barring an unrealistically high AD build, which makes it purely a nerf.
It is a flat nerf. However, they are adding something to his kit that wasn't there before in order to make the nerfs not as harsh. This is called a compensation buff.
LostFr0st3 votes
MinaZer03 voteslux has utility in her shield but its a gimmick, she is generally a shit pick.
LostFr0st1 votesYes, a 'shit pick' with a high win and playrate for many months now. Not saying she needs to be nerfed, but she should be included in the OP's list nonetheless.
Covert Ops Gnar1 votes[{quoted}](name=ILittle IMonster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEHWngwg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-08T20:58:39.401+0000)
lux has utility in her shield but its a gimmick, she is generally a shit pick
q r triple kill
IceKingChernobog4 votesIt still pisses me off people refuse to acknowledge how busted lux is.
MinaZer03 votesthey simply don't want malz bot lane, he is a press R and set up an instant gank/free kill champion, no counter play unless you buy an early qss or have a tahm kench support but both bot lane champs arent going to buy qss and having to pick tahm kench everytime into malz means tahm kench can't be the one to get malz ult'd so they are gutting him for the greater good.
Rabblerouser2 votes[{quoted}](name=ILittle IMonster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEHWngwg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-08T20:56:01.402+0000)
they simply don't want malz bot lane, he is a press R and set up an instant gank/free kill champion, no counter play unless you buy an early qss or have a tahm kench support but both bot lane champs arent going to buy qss and having to pick tahm kench everytime into malz means tahm kench can't be the one to get malz ult'd so they are gutting him for the greater good.
You realize they didn't change his R at all, right? He did need a nerd, but not to minion spawn times. Literally just one nerf or the other, but both? It seems like it may have hurt him immensely.
Also, getting QSS is a bad thing? Having a team actually play like a team player and play a peel support is a bad thing? By that logic, building MR against a fed Orianna is "unhealthy" because God forbid an ADC with frail psychology have to deviate from their copypaste-every-game build path and learn to use an item active. Building QSS shouldn't be a metric to measure when something should be nerfed, but it should be a show of a good ADC that he/she actually reacts to the enemy.
Having to build QSS isnt' really that bad. It's Malz's lack of any meaningful interactivity in lane that makes him unhealthy.
MinaZer04 votesyup, I do realize that, he has ALWAYS been a press R champion, but now his voidlings won't be so free to spawn, he can still be a braindead press R champion but with ALOT less lane pressure speaking on bot lane, which is why he won't be played there anymore.
Olsca11 votesso they gut his mid and mildly hurt his support. OK RIOT GAME
Unlucky471 votesBuying an early qss completely counters him for the rest of laning phase though.
MinaZer01 votesit counters him for one champion bot lane, 
> 
for supports and any decent adc will not waste a spike of gold for qss early unless way ahead, like a failed dive bot and got 3 to 4 kills and just has extra gold to waste on qss. 1300 gold is not cheap.
Skyroar3 votes[{quoted}](name=ILittle IMonster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEHWngwg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-08T20:56:01.402+0000)
they simply don't want malz bot lane
But the last changes pidgeonholed him into support.
Leonerdo3 votesTL;DR: I agree about Malzahar (at the end), but I think you're overreacting or uninformed about all of the champs you listed.
In order: Ahri, Cait, Janna, and Jhin are generalists with many strengths that are looked for in their respective classes. They are also have a low skill floor, so even people new to those champs will perform decently with them. So yes, they will always be good picks, but not great. When they have been great, they've been nerfed (you can check their histories on the wiki).
Vi is similar, but she is the one who was most recently too strong, and perhaps still a little too strong. Her current strength is dependent on things that are/were in flux though, namely Courage of the Collosus, and the Season 7 jungle changes. Riot has been making changes to those, and they didn't want to double nerf Vi before seeing how the other changes affected her.
Regarding "piddly taps", you seem to have a double standard. Do you want those champs be nerfed harder until you don't see them anymore? Because that is the state of the last set of champions. Besides, I'd say all of those middle 8 champs are balanced (assuming the new Jayce nerfs and Kha'zix nerfs hit as hard as I think). Hecarim, Mao'Kai, and Poppy were only strong when CoC was broken. The others are only strong when someone is really good with them, and/or their opponent doesn't know how to deal with them.
In contrast, most of the champs you deem "in the gutter" are there because there is no good way to deal with them.
(I'd actually say Kennen belongs down with the other "gutter" champs, btw. He was only ever strong in Pro play because they could abuse his team-fighting strength, and when played right, the only way you could shut him down was with exhaust.)
Aatrox is not a fun or fair champion. If he's suffers greatly from S2 fighter syndrome, in that he has no weaknesses and can 1v3 constantly if he's strong. His healing and lack of mana means that he never has to stop fighting, so if he's strong enough to win fights consistently, he snowballs way too hard. This is only exacerbated by the fact that he gets more healing from damage items (AD and AS make his W better).
Azir, as well as Kalista and Taliyah, have way too strengths. AND those strengths are gated behind very steep mastery curves. Which means they are either garbage in normal play, or 100% banned in pro play.
I don't know what the deal with Cho'gath is. I guess he has too little counterplay to be allowed strength. None of his abilities can really be stopped/avoided except his Q.
Fiddlesticks is an unfortunate soul who doesn't have a good place right now, since the new jungle has not catered to him at all. They did buff him already, and I think they want to help him some more, but don't know how yet.
Kindred runs away with games if she's strong, because she is basically unavoidable as a jungler. Her mobility, undodgeable attacks, and safety due to range/kiting means that again she's has no counterplay. Are you seeing a pattern yet?
Morde has a weird identity but actually isn't weak. He's niche and not many people play him, but those who figure him out tend to wreck with him. Also, he's a juggernaut with no range, CC, or mobility, and relies entirely on his team to get him next to his opponents. So he pretty binary too - if you're next to him, you die, if you can kite him, he does nothing at all. Buffing his strength would make him even more binary, and buffing his weaknesses would bring him dangerously close to Aatrox territory.
Nunu is just entirely uninteractive. He spends most of his time counterjungling. If he wants to fight, he just clicks on you and permaslows you. If you want to fight him, good luck catching him or getting any damage to stick. Not a champ you want to see being meta.
Tahm Kench has half of Nunu's problems and half of Kalista's. For a while he was a no-counterplay top-laner. Now he's a support that no one knows how to play optimally except the pros, since his team-utility is only really appreciated on that level.
And Vlad is just a mage version of Aatrox. Constant healing and damage just can't be strong without being oppressive, especially when it is point-and-click and ranged. And he can be untargetable. Again, the only counterplay is to out-range him somehow.
But where does Malzahar fit in relation to all this? I'm not sure. I know he doesn't quite belong with the gutterfolk. But he's not all that fair either. Well, until you get QSS that is. I do think they missed the mark with the W cast-delay, but there's still time for follow-up changes. We still haven't seen how bad the changes impact him though either. Maybe it isn't as bad as it looks on paper. Idk.
A Basic Island2 votesa bakers dozen is 13
i count 11 champs
wtf
THE RlVER KlNG1 votesetc
Dominick Destine2 votesu wot m8?
I'm pretty sure holds the title for most total nerfs in the game, beating out both 
and 
. They weren't small nerfs either, her ult was completely gutted and is a shadow of what it used to be, so did her Q, so did her W , so did her E, so did her passive.... she's taken a massive beating but her core identity is so strong (Denying enemy engages, instant shield with AD bonus, etc.) that she always bounces back.
THE RlVER KlNG2 votesAnd yet she still has a 55% win rate with a 10% pickrate......doesn't matter how many times she's been nerfed if she's still one of the top picks in the game.
Dominick Destine2 votes[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEHWngwg,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-02-09T12:29:34.412+0000)
And yet she still has a 55% win rate
Did you not read what I typed or just failed to understand it?
The original claim was that Janna was not 'touched' (aka nerfed). That is absolute nonsense as she is easily the most nerfed champion in the game. Your argument was garbage, your new argument is irrelevant.
THE RlVER KlNG2 votesAnd yet she is still strong, and you a complete jerk
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEHWngwg,comment-id=000c000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-09T21:55:18.607+0000)
And yet she is still strong
That was never in question. You have presented three terrible arguments.
you a complete jerk
Your "Hurt Feelings" are irrelevant.
wishbone251 votestheir just like adc but more squishy
Chaos Milk Tea1 votesMost permanently weak champions have something unhealthy in their kit that makes it better to leave them off to the side until they get a rework/update. Some are just better than you know and have their potential locked behind a skill cap that only high level players are able to lift. Sometimes champions just end up weak for a half a season and come back later as the meta changes.
Also they JUST addressed Vlad in a meaningful way. He is now both stronger and easier to play.
Some champions don't get slammed too hard because they have really well designed kits that led to interesting game play. I'll be the first to admit Jhin hits really fucking hard, but he also has an extremely intricate kit with lots of counter play, fun mechanics, and clear weaknesses.
RookPusher1 votesI'd like to say as a Maokai main, perhaps you're tuning in now, but he underwent massive changes somewhere around S3 or S4. The range on his W went down by 66% or something insane like that.
They aren't tapping him, they're just adding on to the massive assault he received a few years ago.
Unlucky471 votesIt's funny because I was an Azir main before he was gutted for his lcs success. And then I was a kindred main who was gutted for lcs and solo queue. Vladimir was my first main but he became really dull after the rework. He was strong as shit but now he's not playable despite my attempts. Then there's the jungle changes that are so fucked that the only role I can play is mid and the only champion I can play is corki. He's going to get gutted soon though.
El Sexo Goato1 votesJhin and Cait don't need nerfs. Period. And your logic of win rate doesn't apply at all. Neither are much over 50%. Like 52 and 51.
THE RlVER KlNG2 votes - 53% with 12% playrate
- 51% with a 25% playrate
- 52% with a 23% playrate
- 55% with a 10% playrate
- 54% with a 13% playrate
?
Blakiepug1 votes[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oEHWngwg,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-02-09T03:14:41.259+0000)
?
Keep fighting to make my support viable again! q.q I miss playing my favorite champion... :(
Seekêr1 votesMord and cho are fine. Can't speak for the other ones but just because they are niche picks or not currently in the meta doesnt make them bad. neither of the 2 need buffs.
d4rkshock1 votesMord, cho'gath, azir, and nunu are scheduled to be reworked in the future. Arhi and vi seem to be the irellia of their roles. They have a tedious amount of boons but not nearly as unhealthy as irellia. Remember the meme "better nerf irellia". Yasuo will always be good in the right hands. In the wrong hands, it's a trashuo. K6 is an assasin who actually received a nerf that may actually make k6 mains happy because he's permmabanned in high elo. Same for rengar. Kennen is always good. He's dominated LCS for some time. Also why are you complaining about maokoi. I don't see alot of Janna or arhi. Kat is also a high skillcap assassin with a very very very low skill floor but late game, your only good of you can get a pentakill. I know because when I tried her out, I got 37 kills and still lost. Remember, you outscale jayce. Aatrox has been bad since day one. If you want to see a good aatrox otp, look at sweeeet dreams. He's challenger.
Frius1 votesactually season 3 to season 7+