@Riot: Kalista is a Better Ashe

Mandaari··55 votes·4,702 views

They actually have very similar kits and most of their difference are in the details.

#High level similarities:

  • Both are ranged ADCs.
  • Both have ultimates that initiate.
  • Both have kite-centric kits.
  • Both have long distance vision abilities.

#Areas where Ashe is stronger:

  • Ashe's kite mechanism extends to her teammates.
  • Ashe has higher AS, range, starting health, armor, and mana regeneration.
  • Ashe's initiation has high base damage and is global.
  • Ashe's Hawkshot is good for granting vision of an area on demand and has a lower cooldown ignoring the recharge mechanic.

#Areas where Kalista is stronger:

  • Kalista has higher health at 18, AD, and health regen at 18.
  • Kalista has much more damage in her kit. All of her abilities excluding her ultimate have strong damage components.
  • Kalista's ability to kite is much more reliable and actually works against the dashes that the vast majority of champions have. She both has a gap creator and a slow, albeit not a permaslow.
  • Kalista's Sentinel is on a lower cooldown, two of them can exist, and they're much more reliable for use as a passive warning system.
  • Kalista's ultimate keeps her Oathsworn safe, bypasses a front line, immediately sets itself up for follow up, has a shorter cooldown, and cannot be cleansed.

The reason anyone competitively picks Ashe is for her utility, yet Kalista fills in that niche in nearly all of the same ways and more. Come on Riot. Any time someone brings up Ashe you hide behind her win rate, which you yourselves repeatedly say is a misleading metric. Now that there's a champion that kicks her out of her niche can you please acknowledge that she needs some attention?

82 Comments

DaCush21 votes

I think Riot and everyone who plays this game knows that Ashe is underwhelming. I don't think Riot or anyone else is denying that. She's just extremely outdated. One of her abilities is a passive and a passive only which just shows how outdated she is being one of the original champions. I'm sure she has plans to get reworked including a full VU. There are just some other champions ahead of her. All we can do is wait for that. I'm sure it will be a great turnaround for her and she'll have her own niche again. There are just some champions who have priority first, namely Poppy and for a good reason. A champion like Poppy is in much dire need for a rework prior to a champion like Ashe although I'm not saying that Ashe isn't in great need.

Mandaari5 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=44322091#post44322091

She doesn't have any plans. Last time Riot talked to anyone about her they explicitly said they thought she was in a good spot. I'm just asking Riot to acknowledge that she needs to be on the list in the first place.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

{quoted}

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=44322091#post44322091

She doesn't have any plans. Last time Riot talked to anyone about her they explicitly said they thought she was in a good spot. I'm just asking Riot to acknowledge that she needs to be on the list in the first place.

They also said the same about Cass and then her rework happened...

Tsunday4 votes

One of her abilities is a passive and a passive only which just shows how outdated she is

Vayne and Varus both have a W that's a passive only. Varus's 'dating' is debatable but nobody is going to say that Vayne is 'underwhelming' and 'outdated'.

Not saying that Ashe isn't those things, but saying that a passive only ability doesn't necessarily make her those things.

TehNACHO3 votes

To be fair, Vayne's Silver Bolts have a far more active component to them than Frostshot. Just clicking a button vs devoting three auto attacks to a single target really frames the picture of just how "passive" Ashe's Q Passive is.

Blainezy1 votes

Her E is not a passive only. You can use it to grant vision. Also her E is great for early game advantage because of the generated gold from it which is why I start with it at level 1.

Tsunday1 votes

I believe they were talking about her Q.

Blainezy1 votes

Her Q isn't just a passive either.

Tsunday1 votes

Didn't say it was, I said I believe that's what the poster was referring to which is a totally different story.

Vesarixx1 votes

I wouldn't advise starting it but it is a good ability, in farm lanes you can get an early avarice blade and it increases the amount of gold you get per last hit by ~20%.

Matezoide1 votes

Ashe does not need a rework. It is not her fault that Riot likes to overload their champions with bullshit.

Gunpoint19 votes

Riot has an entire department filled with challenger smurf Ashe players who's only goal is to keep Ashe' win rate above 50%, that was they never have to buff her.

Namnoms14 votes

wtf are you talking about? Ashe is a support.

Alëk11 votes

Just fyi Kalista with red buff is literal hell.

Anonagon5 votes

Normally when a champion is said to be "X 2.0!!!!!!!!", its totally untrue, but in the Kalista - Ashe case its 100% accurate. I'd love to see Kalista's Oathsworn thing removed entirely. It doesn't fit her character, and the spear-lodging playstyle of her PQE is more than enough to define her playstyle.

MiracleSpire6 votes

{quoted}

spear-lodging playstyle of her PQE is more than enough to define her playstyle.

Wouldn't that be Twitch minus Stealth then? I know stealth is big on Twitch, but the "stack this up then blow them up" is kinda Twitch's playstyle too.

Remlap12233 votes

And Varus. And Vayne. And new Tristana. And Miss Fortune to a lesser degree. This is not exactly treading new ground. Kalista's kit on paper is fine, but she's just way overtuned. She needs nerfs across the board from everything to ever be considered balanced.

It Hertz When IP6 votes

Did you read her story? It's the ONLY part of her kit that 100% fits her. The rest is just spear-flinging mechanics and a sorta-thematic ghost patroller.

Adrian Umbra3 votes

Completely disagree on Kalista's Oathsworn not fitting her character. Read her lore please and realize that they'd have to totally rework her ultimate and part of her W in order to make what you suggest happen. And that would be a huge amount of work for a pretty silly reason.

Slamurai Jack4 votes

I would argue that Ashe has a better poke and ult as well. Ashe's W poke is far stronger than Kalista's Q poke, and I find the global range and lack of cast time on Ashe's ult makes it far easier to use than Kalista's ult as both an initiation and as follow up to an initiation. I also find Ashe's ult is better when you need more immediate peel and disengage, like when a talon or rengar is about to be on top of you, if they aren't already. Kalista's passive is obviously much better at keeping her alive if she can survive the initial dive though.

For me at least, I still think Ashe is better than Kalista in solo q, and Ashe's higher win rate reflects this. Kalista's full power is just too hard to use in the chaos that is solo queue, especially her ult. Obviously that power has the potential to be devastating as shown in LCS, but this is solo q.

Mandaari3 votes

I'll agree with the poke, but I don't agree with the rest. You can't really get any easier to follow up than literally throwing your follow up into position.

I think Ashe has a higher win rate because nobody but die hard Ashe mains play her. Ashe is actually consistently above 50% in ranked 5v5 solo queue, but her popularity is also consistently the lowest of the top 10. Even so, I would be careful about considering win rate at all.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

{quoted}

I'll agree with the poke, but I don't agree with the rest. You can't really get any easier to follow up than literally throwing your follow up into position.

I think Ashe has a higher win rate because nobody but die hard Ashe mains play her. Ashe is actually consistently above 50% in ranked 5v5 solo queue, but her popularity is also consistently the lowest of the top 10. Even so, I would be careful about considering win rate at all.

This is, of course, assuming that your support is someone that you'd actually want following up on an initiation, and your support also realizes what is happening fast enough to go in. Sure, Being able to throw someone like Annie, Leona, or Alistar in can be amazing, but I'd certainly never want to throw a Nami or Soraka in there. And to me, the fact that Kalista's ult does absolutely no damage cannot be glossed over either.

As someone who plays both Ashe and Kalista, I find myself preferring Ashe more and more lately. Her ult is just such a good asset in solo q where people lean towards picking low utility, high damage champions Zed. Being able to just force a play from a safe range is so huge in solo q where people just don't know how push a lead or end a game. I also find that I get alot more gold on average with Ashe with similar performances, simply because of her E passive and the fact that get a guaranteed assist on nearly every kill once teamfights start.

Mandaari2 votes

Keep in mind Kalista's ult places you at your max auto attack range, so it's not like whoever you throw is now stuck in their team. Nami can easily follow up with a bubble or wave, both of which can finish casting before Kalista's CC ends. Soraka though... definitely not a great pick. Still , just don't pick Soraka with her. Kalista has the liberty of not working well with only a few supports without CC. Ashe has the requirement that her team needs to be built around her entirely. You need to bring those high damage champions to make up for Ashe. Kalista brings the damage herself.

I think Kalista's lack of ult damage is more than made up for in the rest of her kit. It's just not burst. Though I'll agree that someone who hasn't played with Kalista and/or someone who isn't in their lane partner's mind can have a hard time landing the ult, but that's more the player than the champion.

Tsunday2 votes

never want to throw a Nami

Personally supports like Nami and Sona are some of my favorite to combo with Kalista (when you don't need a tank) because Kalista's ult perfectly sets up Sona/Nami's ults without putting them in much danger. On top of that someone ranged like Nami/Sona would be able to proc the %hp damage more often, and both Nami/Sona have AA buffs on top of that harass. A melee tank like Braum/Leona while they might set up a good initiation, aren't praticularly great at proccing her passive unless it's in an all in. Thresh is iffy on how capable he is at proccing it. Since he is ranged he can get that devstating poke off with his Flay + Kali passive, but when thrown into a team he doesn't really have the same good follow up that a Leona, Braum, Nami, Sona, Janna would have. He could throw a hook, they aren't really in Ult range and actually he gets displaces outside of his flay range (AA range 450, Flay range 800 but it's actually 400 in each direction)

Zazusha4 votes

kalista is to ashe as lucian is to graves.

junglerboy161 votes

...you mean Graves is to Lucian, right?

Zazusha6 votes

it is as intended. Lucian (pre-nerf hammer) was graves 2.0. lucian does what graves does, only at lv3 instead of 6.

Vesarixx4 votes

Ashe is my favorite ADC, she doesn't need nearly as much attention as people seem to think. If anything they could just buff her base AD scaling since she has one of the lowest AD per level of any ADC, but that may be for balance since she already scales incredibly well with items.

Mistress Madoka3 votes

All I can say is that if you make the two fight, generally Ashe wins.

Aerothal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baldur Odinson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o9Gd4e0f,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-02-09T08:19:11.527+0000)

All I can say is that if you make the two fight, generally Ashe wins.

^this. I mean by all means i am not a good adc, but i pick Ashe vs a Kalista because i usually win that lane.

FoggyPaws3 votes

Ashe also has gold generation on kill with her Hawkshot. Just saying, I know Kalista is really strong, but there's that.

Markus Vakarian2 votes

3 gold each kill....you have 300 gold at min 12 if you are really good,and what do you buy with 300 gold?? nothing....

FoggyPaws4 votes

And what happens if you get an Avarice blade? And maybe even Gold Quints if you're feeling ballsy 300 Gold also gets you pink ward totem, or green ward totem worth it I'd say

Markus Vakarian1 votes

that passive should help Ashe to arrive at full build before other ADC .Late game she should have 1 item advantage if the farm (and kills+assists) is the same But Even with 300 minions killed,the gold is only 900,not even enough for a item 3086 10 gold/kill would make 3000 gold,enough for a item 3046

Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votes

I agree, I do, but then again: Riot, please don't change Ashe. Two friends of mine recently started playing League and have been complaining to me that the game is rather complicated and that every champion is so complex. They don't feel as if learning how to play will be worth it in the end and would rather I play CS(SSSS???) some shooter game ... Ashe is important, because she isn't complex. She's simple and seams weak, which is actually much more appealing to new players than 'overpowered'-seeming champions like Riven. Don't you know that feeling when starting a new game and you're level 1 and fresh and new and weak and it's just so fun? Which is why prestige is so appealing, too, in Modern Warfare? Well, League doesn't give you that feeling. It throws you in and puts pressure on you and makes you hurry along to level 30 just to be stuck in 'Elo-hell' (though nobody even knows what Elo is anymore).
Ashe is important for new players because she's simple, and every game needs aspects like that. Even if Ashe is weaker than other champions, unbalanced and unpicked in the competitive scene, it's much more valuable to get new players than to please some few of the ones you already have.
(This isn't my own opinion, it's an observation based on my own opinion.)

mjack333 votes

So... when was the time Ashe took Youmou's, the Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, or BoTRK? Am I missing the similarities there?

Ariaflux2 votes
Blainezy2 votes

I actually just started playing a lot of Ashe and my success with her is quite large. I think she's really great right now and way underrated. I see your points about KaliSt a but as she has gained popularity this season already I have faced quite a few as ashe and have won against her every time that I can recall. Ashe is very simple and more user friendly and it makes her much more viable I Think. I'm started to favor her as my main add over Jinx and Lucian.

Solidair32 votes

I don't really get it, myself. I play a lot of Ashe and I generally do VERY well. Her kit is very powerful when you play with it carefully. Even her mostly-shitty passive has some surprising use after you build an infinity edge, giving her surprising burst early in the game.

I will say, though, if Ashe is supposed to be the kiting marksman, then some work has to be done because there is no doubt kalista does that WAY better. Granted, Ashe gets a global ultimate, very powerful at both short and long range, whereas Kalista may only use hers at close range. While I would argue that this means Kalista should get a more powerful kit, given her powerful damage centric kit in combination with her passive... she might be a bit much.

Llanite2 votes

Stuff is outdated with time. You can either buy Kalista (if you believe she's a better Ashe) or stick with the old Ashe.

Riot can rework Ashe, sure, but why do that over releasing an entire new champ with that idea? For the most parts, her win rate is not under performing, some might outshine her, but she's no where near the bottom, there are others needing more attention.

soliznoel2 votes

I find myself buying mobility boots on ashe, because she is way too slow in this meta. The only AS item i get is triforce because it's really usefull on her IMO. My personal way to build ashe is sustained damage and survivability> in order> item 3031 item 3117 item 3078 and either item 3142 or item 3071, then item 3035 and lastly, depending on my needs one of these items item 3072 item 3026 item 3022

And if you guys are asking why ghost blade and black cleaver, it's because ghost blade gives ashe situational survivability with it's active, and cleaver gives both survivabilty and the armor shred passive to help you deal better constant damage. And frozen mallet is just a cheap trick on ashe to piss people off, not really gold efficient though

Krys Star1 votes

What happens if you buy a Frozen Hammer with Runaan's Hurricane? Does she basically become Ashe, but Ashe 2.0?

Mandaari18 votes

Then she becomes Trashe 2.0.

Hawkefire2 votes

Or you could....you know....just get Red Buff from the jungle....and do basically everything that Ashe can do.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Kalista can't assassinate/1v1 like Ashe can.

Ashe item 3078 item 3172 item 3142 item 3031 item 3087 item 3035 26 (cdr)-1-3 (ms), 15% scaling cdr

This build order (changed situationally):

item 3031 > item 3006 >item 3087 > item 3035 >item 3078 > item 3134 > item 3172 (sell boots) > item 3142

Rinky Dinky1 votes

She very much can.

Lategame all she needs is maybe 3-4 spears into a target and then she can e them for the kill.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

But she can't do those 3-4 spears while her opponent is stunned, like ashe can. Rank 3 ult stun is long enough to get two triforce procs off and a number of AAs, esp. with ghostblade.

DoraTheBrown3 votes

the stun is based on how far it traveled

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Wow. I've played how many ashe games and I didn't know this?! :S

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