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Sucks that non-assassin champions are making more use out of Lethality than assassins.

48983507DEL1··23 votes·1,964 views

Don't get me wrong, Zed and Talon are much stronger than last patch.

However, the champions that seem to be getting the most benefit are Jihn, Miss Fortune, Varus, Pantheon, and Wukong, none of which are assassins.

I understand that Riot doesn't want to restrict champions into only building a specific set of items without straying from their class's pack, but having non-assassin champions only building items that are designed for assassins is not the correct way to go about it.

Jihn, Miss Fortune, and varus are Marksmen. Therefore, building items that aren't tailored to consistent damage should punish them in some way, such as a weaker late game. However, in this current state, stacking Lethality doesn't yield a weak enough late game to make crit builds a viable choice in any given situation.

Wukong and Pantheon are in a different boat as Divers. They're supposed to be punished for not building off-tank, since their damage shouldn't be high enough to kill champions faster than they can be killed. Wukong is currently a much better assassin than Zed or Rengar simply because his damage is absurd when building Lethality while also providing extremely reliable crowd control. As for Pantheon, he just feels far too easy to snowball with now.

Please try to tailor assassin items to assassins specifically, since other champions are abusing them far worse than they are.

23 Comments

Eedat8 votes

Thats because Flat Armor pen is NOT just an assassin stat. some of those champs you listed have always used flat armor pen

Pantheon MonkeyKing have built item 3142 for years. MF has always had armor pen builds. So has Jhin. This isnt new.

Flat Armor Pen was never and still isnt an assassin only stat.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

But it needs to be.

9kPluzZ4 votes

Wukong is an assassin tho. Saying Wukong isnt one is the equivalent of saying Diana isn't. He has high ad ratios, invisibility, and a gapcloser; what does that sound like to you?

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prom Queen Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o7Et3656,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-19T12:29:06.768+0000)

Don't get me wrong, Zed and Talon are much stronger than last patch.

However, the champions that seem to be getting the most benefit are Jihn, Miss Fortune, Varus, Pantheon, and Wukong, none of which are assassins.

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Talon/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Shaco/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Jhin/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/MissFortune/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Pantheon/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Zed/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Khazix/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Rengar/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/Varus/ http://lolalytics.com/champion/MonkeyKing/

No, assassins are using lethality just as well or better than the champions you named that are abusing it. Talon in particular is a contender for the strongest champion in the game.

Aptest1 votes

I do not believe this is correct. EON on an ADC will outright gimp any assassin through loss of combo. Which assassin can pump out poke reliably to make sure the ADC loses his shield?

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

Please try to tailor assassin items to assassins specifically

Undoable. Assassins only niche in the game is killing carries. The problem is, pretty much everyone wants to kill enemy carry - other classes want to do other things as well, but if you quickly kill enemy marksman as Miss Fortune, it is still a great success.

In other words, it is impossible to create assassin-only items since they don't do anything unique - they have their own unique way of doing this, but they are doing something everyone else wants to do as well.

The only way around is that I could imagine would be introducing direct lethality scalings to their kit (i.e. 200 + 100% bonus AD + 150% lethality or so), to make those items more attractive to them, but this is a) super-boring and b) snowbally, which defeats the purpose of introducing lethality in the first place.

That being said, Riot doesn't want lethality to be assassin-only stat anyway.

Lauchmelder5 votes

{quoted}

Undoable. Assassins only niche in the game is killing carries. The problem is, pretty much everyone wants to kill enemy carry - other classes want to do other things as well, but if you quickly kill enemy marksman as Miss Fortune, it is still a great success.

In other words, it is impossible to create assassin-only items since they don't do anything unique - they have their own unique way of doing this, but they are doing something everyone else wants to do as well.

The only way around is that I could imagine would be introducing direct lethality scalings to their kit (i.e. 200 + 100% bonus AD + 150% lethality or so), to make those items more attractive to them, but this is a) super-boring and b) snowbally, which defeats the purpose of introducing lethality in the first place.

To be fair, Assassins as a class is a complete failure. It's not fun to play against them when they're strong and it's bullshit for anyone playing assassins when they're weak. And there's literally no middle ground to that.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

You are not wrong, but this is irrelevant here.

Aptest1 votes

i am in his camp.

the core problem is the concept of a character that is specifically about the other character killed. if you give such a character reasonable access to it's "high point" than the key player on the other team consistently is not playing at the "big moments" of the game.

conversely, if the key player on the other team is permitted to participate fully in the big moments, the assassin character has very limited value.

I do not see a sufficient middle ground apparent in the game.

Maddened King 2 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o7Et3656,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-19T13:02:15.639+0000)

To be fair, Assassins as a class is a complete failure. It's not fun to play against them when they're strong and it's bullshit for anyone playing assassins when they're weak. And there's literally no middle ground to that.

Exactly. This is why Assassins need to be gone as a class.

Sire Hippington2 votes

So ad-caster, which always prefered ad, pen and cdr, makeing good use of items that give ad, pen some other stuff? Can't say i'm supprised, nor concerned by that. Also, Wu is prettymuch an assasin if going full off, he's prettymuch assasin/diver hybrid, same with pant.

The main issue is that the utillity on those items give ranged champs to much safety with their off stats. If yomuu'S speedbuff was reduced for ranged and the spellshield either nerfed in some way or removed entirely for ranged, there wouldn't be much issues with ranged using it aswell.

SomeOneButNoOne1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o7Et3656,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-19T18:49:21.039+0000)

So ad-caster, which always prefered ad, pen and cdr, makeing good use of items that give ad, pen some other stuff? Can't say i'm supprised, nor concerned by that. Also, Wu is prettymuch an assasin if going full off, he's prettymuch assasin/diver hybrid, same with pant.

The main issue is that the utillity on those items give ranged champs to much safety with their off stats. If yomuu'S speedbuff was reduced for ranged and the spellshield either nerfed in some way or removed entirely for ranged, there wouldn't be much issues with ranged using it aswell.

Cause ADC's are so diverse right now, that if you did that many new ones would emerge, right? Oh wait...that's not what would happen. Jhin & Varus would get worse, and then you'd see adc's supporting their support instead of carrying. :I

Albuquerque2 votes

Therefore, building items that aren't tailored to consistent damage should punish them in some way, such as a weaker late game. However, in this current state, stacking Lethality doesn't yield a weak enough late game to make crit builds a viable choice in any given situation.

This isn't exactly true. If you watch full games on youtube you can see the difference between the two. Adc's who build Lethality only do about 300-400 damage per auto around late game and they have no attack speed in their build, which is significantly weaker than crit builds. Crit builds can regularly do around 650-1000 damage per auto (depending on the armor of the target/their build, etc), plus they have attack speed in their builds, so this damage comes out a lot faster.

I concede with your last point, though. ("doesn't make crit builds a viable choice in any given situation). Lethality spikes after just 1 item item 3142 while crit builds need a minimum of 2-3 items to become useful item 3031 item 3085 item 3036. It takes on average about 20-30 minutes to get all three of these items, and this meta is so fast that most games are already decided by that point.

Aptest1 votes

Lethality builds generally focus on pumping out damage through abilities or outright instagibbing, hi quinn. The advantage is safety. Since abilities have much higher range than autos, you can pump out more of them since your need to be concerned with your own safety and positioning is much less.

and Jhin laughs at attack speed. Exactly. Four. Times.

MissingKayo1 votes

A rational mage main who realizes that others are fucking over itemization for assassins?

Well fuck me sideways and call me a flatfish.

YokoNomi6 votes

{quoted}

A rational mage main who realizes that others are fucking over itemization for assassins?

Well fuck me sideways and call me a flatfish.

That's a very particular fetish.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Jhin and MF are played like ranged AD casters, they will always like cheap and easy high AD builds and lethality that offers that + ability to ignore armor+ mobility+ spellshield+ move speed active+ cdr+ true damage is just too great to pass up.

Which is the case for wukong,patheon, riven, jayce and quinn too.

They are all AD champions that use abilities a lot. Naturally they like cheap and easy AD items that offers ability to counter enemy armor stacking and all the other bonuses.

And to mention, talon is currently a god tier champion, he is damn powerful in good hands.

Wukong too i guess but he is more teamfight oriented and snowballs slower.

BakedLotion1 votes

{quoted}

Jhin and MF are played like ranged AD casters, they will always like cheap and easy high AD builds and lethality that offers that + ability to ignore armor+ mobility+ spellshield+ move speed active+ cdr+ true damage is just too great to pass up.

Which is the case for wukong,patheon, riven, jayce and quinn too.

They are all AD champions that use abilities a lot. Naturally they like cheap and easy AD items that offers ability to counter enemy armor stacking and all the other bonuses.

And to mention, talon is currently a god tier champion, he is damn powerful in good hands.

Wukong too i guess but he is more teamfight oriented and snowballs slower.

quinn and talon 57% win rate balanced huehue.

not a single fucking mention of nerfs on PBE. You simply can't win lane against a talon, and quinn is just cancer

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

quinn and talon 57% win rate balanced huehue.

not a single fucking mention of nerfs on PBE. You simply can't win lane against a talon, and quinn is just cancer

I actually beat Talon,,,,,by kind of not fighting him or punishing him for trying to fight.

If you play for honor you´d recognize this as the style when someone just defends and tries to parry you and throw you off a wall instead of attack or fight.

ahferroin71 votes

THE ISSUE ISN'T THE ARMOR PEN.

The issue is the utility offered by Edge, Duskblade, and the other items. MF and Jhin are called marksmen, but that's only because Riot declared that anything that deals physical damage can't be a mage. Both are AD casters, and both have always had armor pen builds (fun fact, BC was originally a marksman item, not a fighter/assassin item). Varus makes sense building Armor pen too since he's supposed to be a tank-buster.

As far as Wu, he's basically an assassin when built full damage anyway. He's always been like this to some degree, and at a minimum Youmuu's has always been built on him to some degree (the speed boost is really good for his ult). Pantheon's always been a bit of an assassin too, just not to the degree of Wu, and Youmuu's has always been on his list as well. Both of them have kits that directly support an assassin type playstyle.

In all these cases though, it's really the other things on the items that make them broken, not the penetration itself. They all (except possibly Duskblade) offer some high utility secondary stats that are good on everyone (EoN gives a spellshield with an insane uptime, Youmuu's gives a pretty significant stat steroid on a reasonably short CD, BC decent HP and sticking power, both of the LW items give significant bonuses against certain types of team, and Duskblade gives the anit-ward field, plus 3 of the 6 give bonus out of combat move speed). They're broken because there literally isn't any downside to buying most of them, not because of the lethality itself.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

those champions are casters or champions that rely heavily on spells that you mentioned so it's just a given that armor pen works best on them.

TeCoolMage1 votes

just make it apply on abilities only and call it a day ffs

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Different classes using items for other classes, has been a problem for years. But yes it goes to show they don't have any foresight these days.

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