What makes a mechanic unhealthy? A post on objective analysis.

HudnofskiBleh··3 votes·515 views

I remember reading the post that HateDaddy made where he makes a point about how simple and hiveminded the boards seem to be. I remember when he basically baited everyone by using Caitlyn traps, which are constantly used as a circle jerk topic (I hate using the word circle jerk lol. I need to google a different way to say it.)

I know the post was more about the hive mind of the boards, but it made me actually curious about something. How do we decide if a champion or mechanic is objectively unhealthy for the game? And how do we prevent knee jerk reactions that lead to circle jerks about alright Champions?

For example, I consider Caitlyn an unhealthy champion for a variety of reasons (not because I got "omg 100-0 by a single Lvl 1 Caitlyn auto attack as full build Poppy."), and I have plenty of reasons as to why I think she is not a healthy champion. (I'm not going to explain why I find her unhealthy in this post, as that isn't what this post is about. I can talk about it if you're really curious though.) But there are too many posts that simply complain about a champion because of knee jerk reactions. I believe we need to start using objective reasoning rather than a bad game to decide if a champion is unhealthy or not. We should also make a decision on matters like this for ourselves, rather than latching on to whatever is the opinion on the top page.

For example, I remember reading a post explaining why Riven was a healthy champion. The author of that post made many fantastic points as to why she is an objectively healthy champion (I think it was Mira, I'm not sure.) We need many more objective analysis of Champions and game mechanics like that post.

Looking at these things from an objective, fact-based point of view has a wide variety of benefits. Whenever a Rioter sees one of these posts, they'll be more likely to take this post seriously due to the simple fact that it's not a knee jerk reaction. By using facts and reasoning, we can also make it clear to them what the problem we have may be.. Also, by trying to understand these things from a more analytical perspective, we can carry our analytical skills into the game itself, allowing us to understand where we went wrong or right. Finally, by taking an objective stance on things and sharing our thoughts with others this way, we can not only explain to others why something is good or bad, but we can be more receptive to valid points that may contradict us. This can be useful in everyday life as well.

To summarize, we should use facts and objective reasoning to decide whether something is bad or not, instead of salt. We should also be more willing to look at things from different points of view, while also being receptive to differing opinions.

A post by an Ekko main.

P.S. Fuck Jayce.

39 Comments

GULAG 4 U4 votes

Using logic is forbidden here.

Penns3 votes

If its an assassin, its unhealthy https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/1904/3.0

Dreadlocks2 votes

I'd say Veigar 's R .. "oh i farmed with my q to gain ap, now i can 1 shot you at lvl 6 with my point and click nuke" I mean.. at least other nukes in the game are a skill shot.. Riven RGraves RNidalee maxQ (before it did much more dmg lol) Fizz RAnnie R, Although instant, it wont follow you across the map like Veigars..

a couple other's could be Syndra R (generally needs a little more prep for her R, unlike veigar's who scales based on missing HP) and Anivia R/E combo-point and click nuke, but again, still more set-up than Veigar's R

KONO RUBICK DA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o5JPhdZm,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-25T18:17:50.198+0000)

i can 1 shot you at lvl 6

try again

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Probably means single rotation, not single spell.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Oh wow sm1 on the boards with a functioning brain lol

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Thanks lol.

Joxcab1 votes

But every single mage can do that except for like Ryze or whatever.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

True. It's not something exclusive to veigar.

Joxcab1 votes

Veigar is literally one of the easiest and most clear to counterplay champions in the game. Q can be dodged or blocked. You have no excuse to ever be hit by W unless his teammate CCs you. You have no excuse to ever be stunned by E unless his teammate forces you into it. R can't ever 100-0 anyone realistically.

Dreadlocks2 votes

I'm saying his ULT, im not talking about his kit as a whole..

Joxcab2 votes

So what? His ult is just as easy to counterplay and is just as perfectly balanced as the rest. Stop complaining.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Dude you're in bronze, no offense but i don't think you've seen a good veigar player yet.

Joxcab1 votes

And you're garbage at the game if you think Veigar is anything but weak. Look up actual statistics and what good players do before you presume you're allowed to talk back.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Why are u so angry that I think his ult is bullshit? U rly that butthurt that sm1 disagrees with u? Its the strongest point and click mile in the game. And what do u mean im garbage? I may not be challenger but I still sit in the top 5% of na ranked.

HudnofskiBleh1 votes

Remember children. Part of this post is about being open to differing opinions lol.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Yeah no kidding. Cant even share my 2c w.o somr sheep freaking the fkt out cuz his parents raised him to think close minded.

Joxcab1 votes

I'm not angry. I'm stating facts.

No, it isn't.

So? Good for you? Not a single actually good player thinks Veigar is broken in the slightest in any part of his kit. There's a reason for that lmao.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Ur so angry its easy to see, ur flaming over a convo about veigar and ur rage downvoting. Veigar isnt broken in my eyes, I think his ult is unhealthy. There is a difference

Joxcab1 votes

His ultimate isn't unhealthy. That's objective fact.

Dreadlocks2 votes

I get it dude, ur a lee sin, yasuo hater.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

i have seen a good veigar

and i'm not bronze

so please don't talk about veigar because he can't oneshot you with ult at lvl 6, your statement is straight up stupid

SirLapse2 votes

Very hard to make objective conclusions on effectively a board that is run by subjective forethought and analysis through conjecture (as this is not a research center). The upvote/downvote nature of everything should tell you how difficult it is to enter an objective mentality.

Ralanr1 votes

Imo a healthy mechanic is one that rewards mastery for the player but also allows the opponent to counter it with a simple action. Leading to the player to have to be REALLY good at the ability to make use out of it.

(Bias here) Take Sion's ultimate. It is extremely telegraphed, but because of difficulty to control it becomes easier to play against. Good Sion players with a mastery of his ult however are much more difficult to dodge despite the counterplay of the ult being the same.

Sion players are rewarded for mastering their ult by making it more reliable without changing the counterplay. Aka: Skill.

Dreadlocks2 votes

You mean Ahri Fizz missing half their spells and still 1-shotting someone isn't fair? =\

Ralanr2 votes

No man, that's tots fair.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Alright, just checking :)

Joxcab1 votes

They can't do that though.

Ahri specifically has lower damage than other AP midlaners in exchange for massive safety and mobility and utility. She's still cancer, just saying.

Fizz just doesn't do that. A long range shark does around 70-80% health but is extremely hard to land on a carry. A medium range does around 50-60%. Q+W does around the other half. If he uses E for damage, then he's going to die with said carry.

Dreadlocks1 votes

I've seen enough Fizz players miss R and E and still come away with the kill. I've seen ahri's botch ther E, miss their Q and still clean up the kill with 3 dashes on R and W, ign generally helps the failures of the other missed skill shots. But it happens all the time.

Fizz is especially notorious for being behind double the CS of his opposing mid laner then hitting 6 and winning every trade from then on out. Or picking up that sweet lich-bane and unleashing a crap load of damage etc.. You could lose every lane with fizz and as long as you don't feed too hard, you will win post 6.

Joxcab1 votes

Then Fizz's target was either a complete idiot or AFK, or Fizz was like 30/0 by 10 minutes or the target was AFK for like the first 30m of the game or the target was so low health he was dead anyways.

Same case for Ahri's.

No, he isn't. The reason idiots or bad players say that is because they don't respect how League works lmao. If you don't buy MR or health, you can be 4500 fucking kills. You are still a glass cannon. If you don't respect a powerspike and the fact he's an assassin and will gain damage through his kit and items he eventually gets, you deserve to die.

Wrong. Any non trash team will punish the fuck out of him and end.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

While I'm on board with your general argument here, I'm not quite sure you're using "objective" in the right way. Because there is obviously a pretty significant skill disparity between high elo and low elo, and that affects how people in that elo view certain champions.

For instance, let's say we have a hypothetical champion named Xasuo. Xasuo has the potential to destroy low elo games, so consequently, people there ban him. But as we move higher, more people know how to play against him, and he isn't strong anymore. From a low elo perspective, Xasuo is strong because X, Y, and Z are unhealthy and too strong, but from a high elo perspective, Xasuo's X, Y, and Z can all be countered and/or played around.

You might say that it's the low elo players' fault for not learning how to play against him and that Xasuo should be balanced around his performance in high elo, because that is closer to being "objective". But what you're essentially saying, then, is that the entire game should be balanced around high elo, meaning buffs for pubstompers which would turn low elo into an unbalanced mess; so basically, it wouldn't be very practical.

I won't go into more detail about low elo vs high elo balancing because these three short paragraphs have used up too much effort and I have to shitpost for a while to recover. But the point is that while it's true that actual arguments > rhetoric, being completely "objective" is problematic because how unhealthy a mechanic is isn't really objective; it can also be dependent on what elo the champion is being played at.

HudnofskiBleh1 votes

I don't know why you called the hypothetical champion "Xasuo", we all know you're talking about Rammus. /s

You make a pretty good point about the disparity of skill between the two else groups, but I personally think it's ok for some Champions to be good in one skill group and not so much for another, as it is nigh impossible to make all the Champions viable for all ELOs without making them too repetitive. Thanks for the response btw.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Obviously master Yi.

Aptest2 votes

I believe the banning of Yasuo in low elo is not a result of low elo players being unable do deal with him or unwilling to learn how to deal with him. I think this is just a fake narrative that makes an attempt at the explanation and I have not seen any real basis for it.

Yasuo is banned in low Elo because he is annoying. He is probably not banned in high elo, because in high elo being annoying is not a valid ban reason. This is because in high elo the differences between players that determine victory or defeat are smaller following the law of diminishing returns, hence a weak ban results in a loss.

in other words. In high elo it is important to ban the most op or otherwise "correct" champions and failing to do so can result in a loss. In low elo, the greater variance of champion skill between players allows for banning badly to not result in a loss. Therefore, it is possible in low elo to ban annoying champions like yasuo and vayne.

whereas in high elo you must ban lulu, which is at the expense of banning yasuo.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted} How do we decide if a champion or mechanic is objectively unhealthy for the game?

We can't. Healthfulness or the lack thereof is a purely subjective thing. Objective things can be written about the mechanic and people may use those objective things to reach their own conclusions, but there cannot be an objective one.

HudnofskiBleh1 votes

I agree with you about the fact that being truly objective is impossible, but we can get as close to objective as our human biases will let us.

Jamenawerl1 votes

You cant analyze objectively a purely subjective perception. Its each individual player who judges what he considers fair and healthy.

For example, in Mira Arya's thread, she made Rivens high-AD-scaling shield look like a healthy ability because it encourages building offensive items even when the metagame is making similar assassin-ish champions build tanky without any serious drawbacks. On the other hand, I consider Rivens shield a toxic skill because it gives a supposedly fragile champion the ability to snowball out of control and withstand ever more damage than real tanks when she is ahead.

Another example, the Yorick rework. You were doomed to lose lane against the old Yorick, but he wasnt OP because his lategame was kinda weak. Riot considered him unhealthy because his lane phase was uninteractive, but I know people who actually liked the concept of a safe pick that allowed you to play without taking risks for a certain amount of time at the cost of being unable to carry if the game itself prolonged enough.

You can have a general idea about how you want to design your game or make a statistical study to know what most people hate, but you cant determine objectively what is fun or healthy and what is not.

I think that we must focus on champion balance and counterplay instead, two factors which can be measured objectively and affect chances of competing equally (and therefore winning) directly.

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