I just thought, because I saw people complaining about how useless Tanks have become, that we could Add a grieveous wounds effect on thornmail's Passive, so that ppl who AA s.o. who has the item not only dmg theirselves, but also get the effect. It could help against the ADC's lifesteal
Just an idea.
Nar7ia43 votesTanks have become useless? We must not be playing the same game then lol :D
Spaceman5pff48 votesTo clarify, you are not counting Bruiser Yasuo as a tank, right?
When OP mentions tanks, I believe he is referring to TRUE tanks such as
Not Bruisers like
And my favorite :^)
Apollogy38 votesDr. Mundo isn't a tank. He's sorta a juggernaut. But not really.
Nautilus is one of the greatest examples of a tank. Multiple hard crowd control effects, hard+soft crowd control, defensive bonuses built into his kit, and his abilities scale off of AP and HP. Most true tanks scale off AP, (such as Malphite). Dr. Mundo isn't a tank primarily because of his lack of effective crowd control. Malphite might be a tank, but you can't expect him to peel for anyone very effectively. True tanks would include Nautilus, Leona, Thresh, Braum, Alistar, Malphite, and champions similar to them.
Just wanted to clear that up, Dr. Mundo might be nearly unkillable, but he's more like a bruiser who gains damage through building HP. His goal isn't to peel or engage, it's to be a massive threat that demands an answer. He will devour your carry if you do not stop him. But if you do stop him, you're usually leaving yourself open to Dr. Mundo's entire team to do whatever they want to you.
Spaceman5pff3 votesWell, the concept of a tank in this game is named after very difficult to kill war machines (called tanks, go figure) Fun Fact, those tanks don't crowd control people, they kill people. Unless, like me, you consider death to be the best form of crowd control.
Regardless. My view of a tank is somebody who demands that you focus them else you become a very large threat, but counters being focused through durability, rather than elusiveness. This durability can come from healing, shielding, or stat scaling, it doesn't matter. Tanks can be threats due to CC, or Damage. What matters is that they are significantly harder to kill than a DPS-built character. YES mundo scales damage and fits the juggernaut classification, however, he itemizes entirely to survive, maybe with an occasional liandrys, or a frozen mallet.
Mundo is definitely the most blurred line between tank and juggernaut, ill give it that. I have just always seen mundo as a tank, not a dps
EDIT: So I guess you guys are having some issues with this post. I was not saying all video game tanks are defined as war machines. I was simply alluding to the origins of the term as used in video games.
Not xPeke7 votesCan you give me a quote where the concept of a tank in this game is named after actual tanks (irl tanks)?
Because I don't believe that.
Also, if it indeed is, then I might really reconsider this game as much as I like it. It defies logic. True tanks in most other games are just that.. tanks.. in the sense that they TANK stuff. They don't deal damage. And that's how it should be. Because then again, why build squishy if you can build tank and still do damage? Gotta love that logic.
Spaceman5pff1 votesWell maybe i should rephrase. Riot didn't decide to coin the term "tanky" for this.
The idea of calling something big, strong, and durable a "tank" has existed for quite some time and simply was adopted into this game. That just so happens to be where that use came from.
Not xPeke1 votesYep I agree with you. I see what you're saying.
I'm just confused because through my experiences playing different games, my own definition of a tank is basically.. um.. someone who tanks stuff XD, haha damn I can't describe it.
But think of WoW, first game that came to my mind. That's my definition of a tank. Yes they are different games, but they are called 'tanks' there too. And in many other games as well. And in most cases they follow the design and logic used and applied in WoW. Not the the logic of "tanks" in LoL.
You see, I am all for having a championg that is big, strong, durable, like you say. Just don't allow that champion to be able to combo a squishy champion to really low amounts of health. Because like I said, why woulnd't I then build tankier to survive? It's a vicious cycle.
Can I give you my opinion on something that may feel like it isn't related but in my mind it makes sense. Why do you think tank assassins were ever "born"? Don't you think it's because they wanted to be tanky themselves to deal with tanks for starters, and sure, have more survivability in general? To me this is due to a mistake at the core. The game and it's interaction between tanks and damage dealers is seriously missplaced. That's just the way I see it, maybe I'm going off topic, but to me it's connected.
Have you realised that even ADCs, and especially Mages nowadays, don't build glass cannon anymore?
Items like PD, Maw are very popular on ADCs. RoA, Rylais, etc are very popular on Mages. Wonder why? :p
Spaceman5pff3 votesI do have a theory on all of this, and it is that Riot has a very Nerf-focused balance strategy. This is for many reasons, which I can get into, and it isn't inherently better or worse than a counter-balance strategy like what you see in Dota 2. Simply put, nerfing damage over and over again results in a) champions with high base damage being more valuable than champions with high scaling b) utility becoming more valuable
historically, riot has targeted damage over utility in nerfs unless left with no other options. This is why, now, we have champions like Ashe and Sivir outputting comparable damage to Jinx or Vayne. The hypercarries no longer outclass the utility carries in practice due to damage-focus in a nerf-focused balance strategy.
Utility mids (or mages with strong CC or Utility) like Karma, Viktor, Azir reign supreme.
Naturally, when drafting for utility, you pidgeon-hole yourself into very restricted strategies if you draft all engage tools or disengage tools. As such, champions with very diverse and multipurpose utility are more valuable than single-purpose utility.
Vision + hard cc and untargeted mobility. Global Presence. creates extra personal mobility, indirect vision via destroyed tunnel indicating enemy
mobility + stun. slow, % damage reduction (tankiness) and aoe displacement with no defined direction (good for engage OR disengage).
self peel for lane safety on Q ( + a shield) and W ( + teamfight disruption) Channel interruption.
Mobility and a shield for lane safety and avoiding being picked off. Knockback + terrain creation / leap denial. Can disengage very well (sometimes engage) Wave management tool (passive turret)
permaslow (manaless) AoE slow, global stun + slow, global vision
Spell Denial + omnidirectional speed buff for her and allies.
2 slows (5 if you count each ult shot individually) and a very long range root. Vision from traps (situational)
(this one is fun, when karma is strong, you know damage is not of high importance, yes i know her q fucks shit up but she is low damage generally speaking for a mid) AOE slow. self heal, root. Multi-ally shield + speed buff (mini sivir ult)
ranged slow. Targeted (sorta kinda) stun. projectile blocking, resistance buffing (some mobility) and an aoe knockup + slow
Just my 2 cents. I am no balance expert but my friend (who is really into dota) and I talk alot about how the meta and pro scene are handles from a balancing and planning perspective and I have put this together based on what I have seen.
A few examples of single-purpose utility:
: Q to chase, Ult to go fkin ham.
: with his E being at best mediocre disengage cc, he does virtually nothing but go in.
great disengage but gets manhandled by the poke that she has trouble dealing with compared to other ranged supports. has trouble making picks when ahead
GULAG 4 U14 votesMundo is a juggernaut actually, Dunno why downvotes.
He doesn't have the cc or engage to be a legit tank.
Dr Poro4 votesI was thinking the same. Even Riot classifies Mundo as Primary: Fighter, Secondary: Tank just like Garen, Darius and other Juggernauts. Mundo is definitely a Juggernaut: Tanky with high damage and soft gap closers. The damage generally comes slowly but stacks up heavily when ignored. Tanks are tanky with crowd control. Damage takes the third place here.
Auz the Ripper8 votesthe downvotes probably are because because Mundo is built as though he were a true tank. all of his damage comes from his bases, unlike most other juggernauts with their high total AD ratios, so he doesn't build the "traditional" juggernaut items like black cleaver and people equate that with him not being a juggernaut.
AFK Push2 votesSame with 
Bladerunner777715 votesMundo is whatever the hell he wants to be
Troll for Trump2 votesHe's not even a juggernaut, he won't do anything to a carry unless they're something that's really bad.
He's kinda... a punching bag. A weird champ. He does dmg and is tanky, but he doesn't have the attributes of a carry or a tank. He's not a juggernaut, he doesn't do as much dmg as one. He's more "tank" than "damage"; You won't see him getting juggernaut-based dmg items, or any dmg at all.
He kinda leans more to the tank then the Juggernaut side. Weird champ.
Swiftstrike428 votesThornmail has been a weak item for awhile. No one should build it unless it is a late game item, you have a lot of armor already, and you are facing a predominantly AD comp.
There are other thornmail threads discussing changes too the item. The problem with it in the past is that it was too strong and since its nerf it is too weak.
RainbowIcee4 votesNot only that but now that we have a lot of true hp% dmg around the table thorn mail just boots all together because it doesn't give hp.
Blackstone016 votesHonestly in the past 5 or so years I don't think I've seen thornmail be too strong. The most I've seen it built are in heavy ADC metas where there are 2+ ADCS.
Elikain3 votesThornmail is only a weak item because people who buy it, don't have the necessary HP to back that armor and it's passive up. Thornmail's passive literally requires of a player to tank the AAs of others. What people are asking here is that armor as a stat should become more efficient than it already is and then tanks would pretty much delete every AD damage from this game.
Thornmail works wonders after at least one HP item purchase, just like Rabbadon's works better with at least one AP item in your build, prior to it's purchase. The items themselves aren't efficient as first buys.
Thornmail's efficiency by itself is 85.11%. It's passive needs to be worth at least 350g to be 100% efficient. The passive is stronger the more damage someone deals and scales off your armor as well. It's essentially a tank's Rabadon's.
Rabadon's efficiency by itself is 92.72%. For it to become 100% efficient, it needs at least 36 AP from other sources. For every 100 AP from other sources, the efficiency of Rabadon's rises for 20.03%.
Swiftstrike42 votesThornmail is only a weak item because people who buy it, don't have the necessary HP to back that armor and it's passive up. Thornmail's passive literally requires of a player to tank the AAs of others. What people are asking here is that armor as a stat should become more efficient than it already is and then tanks would pretty much delete every AD damage from this game.
Thornmail works wonders after at least one HP item purchase, just like Rabbadon's works better with at least one AP item in your build, prior to it's purchase. The items themselves aren't efficient as first buys.
Thornmail's efficiency by itself is 85.11%. It's passive needs to be worth at least 350g to be 100% efficient. The passive is stronger the more damage someone deals and scales off your armor as well. It's essentially a tank's Rabadon's.
Rabadon's efficiency by itself is 92.72%. For it to become 100% efficient, it needs at least 36 AP from other sources. For every 100 AP from other sources, the efficiency of Rabadon's rises for 20.03%.
My point is that with Thornmail is that there are other tank items that one can build earlier that raise a tanks "effective health".
Thornmail is cheaper, but it takes a lot of armor for it to be considered comparable to its former self prior the most recent changes.
are all items that are better for tanks because they offer health and resistances.
is more costly, but a better item because it's passive lowers attack speed, it offers CDR, mana and ALMOST as much armor as thornmail. offers a sheen proc which is good for several tanks what want to do some damage and offers a gap closer. The armor on this item is still pretty high and it offers the same things as FH except the aura.
One could debate whether or is better, but IBG offers and earlier power spike and thornmail offers late game defensive stats.
Most ADC can sustain through the thornmail passive with the lifesteal pretty easily, and without one building alot of armor the item is not worth the cost because the buyer is NOT capitalizing on its passive.
There are also other items that most tanks need to build to shore up against magic resist. They crowd out marginal items, such as thornmail, from their full build.
This put thornmail in the the category of an "afterthought" as a tank item and only serious consideration in specific situations.
redfeenix18 votesI think this is a great idea. Currently the only grevious wounds items are armour pen and mana regeneration .
I think giving tanks an option to inflict grevious wounds is a great idea.
Plus it makes sense thematically. Youre touching thorns you bet you're gonna get wounded greviously
However the price or recipe will need to be increased to account for this substantial buff.
Nice idea !
SpecterVonBaren2 votesIt should be an active for the item so you have to think about when you use it and so it won't just always be on.
Quort3 votesBut... But ADCs aren't touching the Thornmail. They're firing projectiles over a considerable distance! 0_o
MunchCrunchLunch8 votestanks are never useless. however. the problem is that. playing tanks. is not satisfying. when you lose early game to quinn top. and you lose late game to a 20% lifesteal 2.5 as jinx that chunks you down real quick and you do no damage.
the role isn't satisfying outside of CC this guy or that guy. peel for this or that. you can't do anything on your own. meanwhile if your kog maw you can just get a GA and roflestomp 1v5 people quadra-penta in about 3 seconds.
Hige6 votestank itemization is not in a bad spot, thing is that ADCs wait out until the enemy tank builds a defensive stat and then counter it, for example if I'm playing Cait and I see that the enemy has a warmog's I consider getting a botrk even though it's not as efficient on Cait herself, if the enemy has heavy armor, then I just get a vampiric scepter and try to get armor pen as soon as possible.
it's also truth that most tanks (at least from gold to bronze) don't try to counter build at all, if you have a warmog's and I have a botrk, you should probably get Randuin's, instead of a Liandry's... also, remember that armor alone or HP alone are only half effective, but using both will increase their effectiveness ten fold, in that regard:
is an awesome rushing item because it gives both armor, HP and Damage so ADCs will need to foresee if you'll go for more HP or more Armor, if they mess up and start building something before you do, then you flank their build with something else, say if they build BoTRK, instead of going for Warmog's, you go for Randuin's right away
specially is the greatest defensive item since it lowers crit damage, lowers attack speed, lowers movement speed and has a TONS of armor
is particularly good too but you gotta weight down if the enemy has too much slows or not since those WILL lower your effectiveness so you'd be better off with 
In contrast though, scales off of bonus armor, so rushing a thornmail is never good, but if you have a and and the adc is still a problem then you should get thornmail and the dmg reflected will be seriously high. Adding grievous wounds to thornmail would probably break the item, but I do believe that Grievous wounds SHOULD be a tank stat as opposed to a dueling stat (only 
and 
has them).
ADCs don't have armor pen built in their kits so in reality armor will shut them down pretty good, unlike 
who will laugh at any defensive stat but whose position is always off so they are susceptible to CC
Edit: I forgot to talk about magic resist, magic resist itemization is the one that's most off currently but the good news is that ALL defensive magic resist Items comes with HP so they are pretty effective on their own. If the problem isn't the ADC but an APC, then your priority should be an item that protects you from magic damage AND physical damage
is the one that comes to mind, since the shield will protect you from poking and they'll need to burn a spell to pop it.
has both Armor and Magic resist, so it kinda works, plus pushing power!
if you have a healer as a support you are effectively doubling your and his effectiveness
manbearswine6 votesImo only problem with tanks is that lord dominiks(and to a lesser extent black cleaver) is just too damn good at their job, tanks just turn into paper when it's bought.
Hige2 votesI'd say that black cleaver can be a bit troublesome, specially since melee's tend to have ways to proc it really fast, on ranged champs it takes some hits in order to start rolling but then champions like 
can proc it on their ults WAY too fast, so yeah...
can be a bit troublesome since it kind of nullifies how armor/hp works but try to see it from the adc point of view also, sometimes when a tank is super ahead it's impossible to deal with it and that's when lord dominiks come into play.
manbearswine4 votesI'd say that black cleaver can be a bit troublesome, specially since melee's tend to have ways to proc it really fast, on ranged champs it takes some hits in order to start rolling but then champions like
Thing is when most things are "super ahead" there's really no way to deal with them, armor won't save you against a really fed zed, qss won't save you against a really fed annie, nothing will save you against a really fed khazix, that's how this game works, if something is REALLY ahead then unless he does something REALLY stupid, you're not going to deal with him, why should tanks be an exception?
There are things which can help you deal with champions when they are somewhat ahead and you need some extra help against them, but lord dominiks is just too fucking good at it's job, qss doesn't negate all incoming cc and magic damage, zhonya's doesn't allow you to completely negate talon's burst, why should dominiks turn tanks into paper?
Hige1 votesYeah I agree, it's too much. It is nice though having several versions of last whisper but the extra damage on top of armor pen should be either balanced or dismissed for something a bit less destructive for tanks. Mortal reminder should also loose the grievous wounds and use another mechanic, perhaps damage over time or a zap like mechanic, the reality is that an item that enhances ALL of an ADC's autoattack is simply crazy.
Not to mention that Dominik's is always the better option by far and Riot has stated that if an item becomes mandatory and pushes other options aside then it's a problem.
manbearswine2 votesYeah I agree, it's too much. It is nice though having several versions of last whisper but the extra damage on top of armor pen should be either balanced or dismissed for something a bit less destructive for tanks. Mortal reminder should also loose the grievous wounds and use another mechanic, perhaps damage over time or a zap like mechanic, the reality is that an item that enhances ALL of an ADC's autoattack is simply crazy.
I think the problem is the current pen formula, I'm seriously starting to think the old one was better, used to be flat was good vs squshies, % is good vs tanks, and if you build both you get less from both, after the change flat is still good vs squshies, % is still good vs tanks, but build both and you get more from both, so they made it shred %bonus to make sure it's not good vs squishes.
Anyway, the final outcome(the way I see it anyway): is that lord dominik's is just too pinpointed towards tanks, zhonya's for example specifically helps with assassins, then ad damage, then also helps with getting jumped at, qss helps especially against magic lockdown+burst, but also against all kinds of cc, dominik's simply needs to lose some efficiency against tanks and gain some efficiency elsewhere.
Maybe make it 10 flat armor pen+30% bonus pen?
Not to mention that Dominik's is always the better option by far and Riot has stated that if an item becomes mandatory and pushes other options aside then it's a problem.
I think that mortal reminder is supposed to be something to build against soraka, I wish I could add "or a healer heavy comp", but it really isn't, they just keep trying to make soraka work and it always backfires, I think the order in which it's currently built is sensible, and for most adcs you kinda expect a rather set buildpath.
thacrazytaco7 votesi remember i had a thresh who was building armor against a team with 4 ap champions, FeelsBronzeMan
Saianna2 votesThis topic is soooo old.... Not that it's bad, I really like it.. But Riot.. Isn't really "tank fan" if you know what I mean :/
Not xPeke1 votesFunny how the most oppressive champions and buildpaths include being a tank/tanky bruiser.
But yeah, Riot is totally not a tank fan. /S
it be lìke that5 votesyour argument is invalid, because the champions abusing them were never suppose to even want them.
They are assas/bruisers using tank items to dominate.
not tanks using tank items to dominate? Not to mention its more about keystones/base stats than it is items. without fervor, tanksou wouldn't even exist.
[zombie-brand-facepalm]
Not xPeke1 votesBecause Malphite deals little damage right? And Zac? And Gragas with just Runic Echoes rest tank does little damage right? (if he even gets runic echoes, he deals pretty nice damage even with Cinderhulk).
You see my point?
And never did i deny it was also keystones and base stats that have the larger impact. Certain tank items certainly do as well however. As for Tanksuo not existing without fervor it's not entirely correct since before he became popular, that build was already used with Grasp. Didn't have quite the same damage "buff" thanks to fervor, but the builds efficiency was still there.
So Deadman plate, IBG, Sunfire cape as TANK items don't give true tanks even that extra bit of damage? Because they do.
it be lìke that4 votesmalphite just got like 4 buffs if i recall, because he was virtually non existant besides his yolo full ap nonsense.
Zac is a low elo pub stomp champ tbh, 60% of champions have some sort of dash on their e, that completely makes zac's hard engage useless, i main zac, his damage is good, but only if you let him land easily dodged moves.
Gragas doesnt do that much damage, he is picked for his ridiculous engage and tankiness, if you stand in his q, thats completely on you.
tbh i dont think buffing thornmail will help tanks that much though either, thornmail seems pretty weak right now yes, but so are melee. This is the age of point and click mage dominance, annie, syndra. Lux, viktor, liss. All packing high burst kits. and will kill you quicker than a LB.
Limrick1 votesDo you know what point and click means? Annie ult is ground targeted, Lux has no point and click spells at all, Viktor isn't strong because of burst, he's strong because his tea fight is too good. Lissandra isn't even played much anymore. And Syndra has on point and click spell that needs heavy setup to do massive damage. And only Annie will actually kill you faster than LB. Maybe Viktor if he's super fed.
it be lìke that1 votesdisagree, disagree, disagree, disagree. Don't worry unlike you, ill give valid reasons why.
Point and click simply means, you point, and click.
Annie her ult is absolutely busted along with her q, if you disagree, please enlighten me as to why, she can combo kill literally anyone in this game, with 1 "skillshot" which she has a baked in stun for.
syndra allow me to chuckle at your "heavy set up" comment rq. Right now, Syndra can miss her q twice, miss her w, miss her stun, and just POINT AND CLICK her ult for 50% of your hp even when behind.
as for the rest, i strongly urge you to learn what a period is. I guess i was fairly ambiguous leading into that sentence so my b.
Lissandra is played fairly often imo she is an excellent control mage and can shut down melee almost as well as annie.
Viktor is fucking behemoth with insane damage who even gets an extra item. Viktor lazer is probably my most hated ability in this game.
Lux has insane teamfight potential, slow, root, and an actual laserbeam ult with a good range. You need to to know where she is at all times, or its usually bad news bears.
Melee life is miserable right now if you aren't a bruiser/assassin who can abuse the busted piece of crap that is.
Limrick1 votesDo you know what Annie ult does?
it be lìke that1 votesbesides 1 shot you with an insanely forgiving hitbox?
you can't make the argument it isnt point in click, she can either stun you with her q and use it, or just drop tibbers on you and then q you while stunned.
Either way, no melee will ever dare to fight an annie who has tibbers up. If that isn't a problem to you, then idk what is.
Once again, you made no point, just an ambiguous statement in hopes of mindless upvotes by people who just assume they agree with you.
You have made 0 points, argued 0 facts.
Limrick1 votesI asked a simple question. That's all. It's a ground-targeted AoE nuke. It doesn't stun on it's own. Nor is it unavoidable, which is the definition of point-and-click. Can you dodge a Lissandra ult? No, because it is point-and-click. Can you dodge an Annie ult? Yes, it's difficult but doable.
You have given no facts, just opinions. And most are extreme exaggerations. If Annie was so effective against melee opponents that they are literally unable to fight her no matter what, she would be a highly contested pick. Amazingly, she isn't, despite the fact that she's clearly impossible to beat.
Also, in the original comment you said "This is the age of point and click mage dominance, annie, syndra. Lux, viktor, liss. All packing high burst kits. and will kill you quicker than a LB." Of those listed, only one has the primary source of their damage being point-and-click. And that's Lissandra, who will more often use it on herself anyways. And it may do extreme damage, but faster than LB? Not even close.
If you actually have the most trouble with mages and you main melee squishies, congratulations. That's their job. To kill squishies stupid enough to get close. You complaining about mages is like marksman complaining about assassins, it's just how the game goes. High DPS squishies are weak to burst. You are a mouse complaining about cats.
Saianna2 votesBoth of groups TANKS and Brusiers are tanky, but in the end, I was talking about "pure" TANKS (the ones who do not build any kind of damage and rely on their base damage, CC and tankiness). Bruisers are some kind of cancerous combination of the best of fighters + tanks in one. You, on your convinience, merged those 2 groups.
Not xPeke1 votesYeah because Nautilus wasn't left unchecked with tons of damage for more than several patches right? Eventually they nerfed his damage, but it should have never even been that high in the first place. Because Maokai building 1 single damage item (RoA) and rest tank, isn't a huge threat to a squishy all through the early and mid game right? Because Malphite is a full tank with semi-offensive items (Sunfire/IBG) yet does do alot of damage right? If you can't accept these simple truths I don't know what else to say to you. And those were just random examples off the top of my head.
Because at the end of day instead of looking into the subclasses that Riot conveniently (since you used the word) created, how about you simply focus on the reality in front of you?
Is he tanky? Yes. Does he have tank/y items? Yes. Does he do damage (enough to raise eyebrows)? Yes. Then that's where we have an issue.
It doesn't matter what you label it if someone has 1 or 2 offensive items (which in many cases give health like BlackCleaver) and the rest are tank items. It doens't matter if you label him a tank or a fighter. At the end of the day he feels very tanky when fighting him and deals ALOT of damage. It's not healthy for the game.
Other games out there have Tanks, Damage dealers, and Supports/healers. THAT is a logical design for a game.
Introducing a subclass for your convenience, when in reality there is no true difference between a fighter and a Tank, except their kit and a difference in scaling, makes no sense. A volibear can and will feel just as tanky as a true Tank, yet he will demolish a squishy. Yet surprise surprise he isn't labelled a tank. YET certainly feels like one.
That's the thing. Fighters back in the day were tankY and dealt damage. But due to masteries and new items (+ base damages) some so called "fighters" only need 1 (or 2) offensive item max before building full tank after that. And what is the result? They are basically as tanky as Tank yet do close enough damage to be a carry and effecitvely "carry" a game.
The only distinction between many fighters and tanks are they lack CC or are "kiteable" (for example juggernatus). The difference however is not found in their tankiness necessarily.
Saianna6 votesWe are talking about EFFING thornmail. An item that isn't even worth buying for goddamn RAMMUS. No bruiser would buy it for F's sake.
I pointed out that you missed what TANK and TANKISH BRUISER are.
One is real, second just builds like first, BUT HE IS NOT A REAL GODDAMN TANK.
Not xPeke1 voteswhat does him being or not being bugged have anything to do with it? wth im so confused.
You made a disctinction between tanks and "fighters".
I'm simply giving you valid examples of TRUE tanks who fit what I said. So I have no clue what you're on about.
And if you don't think it's worth buying on Rammus you haven't really played him.
You're right though, it is a thread on thornmail. On this note I will add that having grievious wounds on that item is really stupid since the actual counter to that item is lifesteal itself. Add grevious wounds to it and you're basically giving any tank that builds thornmail invulnerability against any ADC as they won't even dare to attack you till they have BT + Merc Scim + their other items they'd need to buy probably before them.
How anyone thinks that idea is in any way viable is beyond me.
Saianna2 votesSorry about that, I thought I'm replying to totally different thread.. Then somehow got confused and merged them both in one.
Please check my post again.
Anyways, I'm truly tired.
Bruser = fighter with heavy armor doing what fighter does best Tank = Tank with tank items doing tank stuff and nothing more
Building Soraka in tank, won;t turn her into Malphite. Just beefed version of support. Same goes to tankish Yasuo or Shyvana or Ekko. They don't "tank". They just use their buffed stats to survive trough all this teamfight shit, while dealing damage. But they don't "tank".
Back to thronmail. This item was truly raped ADC itemization overpowered the living shit out of them And Thornmail was nerfed, by a XXL nerfhammer.
As you said TM counters lifesteal, but it's seriously poorly done. GW could somehow STOP with ADC overhealing on Tanks (I don;t want them to straight out die on just 1 item, But I don't want them to lifetap a tank for 300 hp each attack)
Not xPeke2 votesAh that's cool, no problem, I've done that before as well.
Mate I understand what you are saying and I know the "technical" difference between a Bruiser and a Tank. However in game the feeling when fighting a Bruiser is very similar to the feeling when fighting a tank (minus receiving less damage from a true tank ofc). But the Bruiser's tankiness feels pretty similar. You will struggle heavily to kill him while getting pummeled in return. They are effectively tanks because they have high health and enough resistances to absorb alot of your CDs and many AAs. They're not labelled the same but the FEELING is the same. Do you get what I mean? Though I have to admit, i agree 100% with you, a "tank" Ekko will never be as tanky as a Maokai or a Malphite, but depending on how the game goes he can definitely still feel like he is "tanking". That's all I'm saying. I recognise they're different, but they can somewhat do the same job at the same time, with Bruisers dealing more damage all along however.
Yep, I agree with you here as well, Thornmail was indeed nerfed, and after the ADC builds the appropriate items, it most certainly isn't as useful. However you still require to buy the items needed for you to counter thornmail. It doens't happen with your first or second item.
I just think GW is not the way to buff Thornmail, I'm not sure how you could buff it, but adding GW to it would be counterproductive, because like we said lifesteal itself is the main counter to it.
And to be honest, ADCs don't overheal on tanks with Thornmail unless you're considering a full item ADC with triple or at least double lifesteal item and an MR item.
You don't OVERheal a thornmail with just Botrk and BT. You survive, you go pretty much even if I'm not mistaken. But you won't be healing up while hitting him. Sure if you had a Merc Scim with the extra lifesteal + MR then I can see you have a point. But then you have to realise you are being very very specific in describing what scenario will produce the ADC overhealing, which also shows the need for at least 3 specific items, which you won't always have and won't always be able to have immediately.
Champion Skin2 votesThe ways ADC deal with Thornmail
The support or an ally usually builds 
/
giving them more MR
An ally or the ADC can build 
(which reduce the amount of life steal which is needed by increasing the damage which gets through the armor and reduces the return damage as it is based on armor)
They can choose Warlords Bloodlust (which if Thornmail is damaging them and dropping them lower will give them more and more life steal)
And then there are 
(which is just amazing against any tank with Thornmail as the life steal + MR dealing with the thornmail damage and most tanks dealing magic damage so MR is good against that as well and the QSS removes CC which is what most tanks rely on to be useful)
Other life steal alternatives
(You get life steal from the % current health but the Thornmail won't return any damage from on-hit effects)
(gives 10% life steal when procs and also gives MR so it can kind of work)
And late game there is of course this thing 
and by then the ADC also should probably have /
And if ADC's can't deal with Thornmail all that well in the mid game... I don't care as ADC's are so strong in the late game them having some weakness/trouble before then seems fine to me
DragonShea1 votesHere is what makes a tank in terms of attribute priority: CC=Durability > Utility=mobility > Damage
There it is for Fighters:
(Juggernaut): Damage=Durability > CC > mobility > Utility
(Diver): Damage > Durability=Mobility > CC Utility
Saianna2 voteswell.. uh.. yeah..
All I tried to say from my first post that real tank =/= shyvana/darius/whatever with 300 armor/mres
DragonShea2 votesTrue but I feel as much as people here us included try to explain it, it's lost on most folks. But when you make the word "tanky" synonymous with durability they think it's the same when tanky means how well you can tank, while durability is how much damage you can take before dying.
Then again since you this then i am just saying this so others can see what i mean.
