Make Stormraider's ignore unit collision

Overloadroad·Dec 13, 2016·262 votes·5,074 views

Hello! One problem that always bothered me when playing Morde or other similar champs, with Stormraiders, is in laning phase: Whenever I prock the Mastery and become fast to catch up to the enemy, I can't reach him due to the minions blocking me. I've lost many kills because of this, and imo this Keystone becomes useless. Sure, you can fight when there are no minions, but for certain champs minions are needed. Ignoring creep block will make this mastery much more useful in my opinion.

Have a nice day.

69 Comments

xxxMadLionxxxDec 13, 201651 votes

I think it also need a better proc sound/animation. A lot of times I don't even realised it has been proc'd because the visual effects are so hard to notice.

FlyinguillotineDec 14, 201621 votes

It has an effect? Honestly I never noticed.

Malicious MetalDec 13, 201613 votes

Totally! Especially if you want to go for more extended trades it can really screw you over.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 13, 20167 votes

it doesn't?

OverloadroadDec 13, 201621 votes

No. Getting blocked by minions -> Not catching up to enemy makes the keystone useless for some situations since it "only" gives u mvspeed and Slow Resist (Don't get me wrong, the slow resist is amazing against champs like shaco).

ChaosThiefDec 14, 20161 votes

It's particularly hilarious against nasus, who tries to wither you while stormraider's surge just shrugs it off.

maikokkDec 14, 20161 votes

its better WITH nasus lol, and 70% reduction does not simply shrug off a slow that massive. wither is hardly effected at the end of its duration, because the slow already exceeds the maximum practical application of a slow at that point, so 70% reduction leaves it as a moderately strong slow still

ChaosThiefDec 15, 20161 votes

Keep in mind stormraiders also applies a movement speed buff (30% or so) which does counteract what the slow applies through the resistance.

Also it's personal bias, I play ekko a lot, so stormraiders triggers with my passive, which kind of just ignores everything...

Yung WakbothDec 15, 20161 votes

That would require you to proc it against Nasus which is a Nice Meme

ChaosThiefDec 15, 20161 votes

It's not impossible, all things considered, it miiiight be a little difficult though.

MarshbouyDec 14, 20167 votes

I can see this being heavily abused on some champions. Jayce Imagine if he could run away through minions

AdriqnoheeDec 14, 20161 votes

I mean unless he is going after you, there is no reason for him to be in a position where minions will block his path.

VolcanuzDec 14, 20161 votes

R into hammer Q >W > E run away. Yeah it is an issue. The only thing keeping Jayce from doing this constantly is that they can just trade back and he is stuck behind cannon/melee minions. It is enough to slow him down to take the same beating he just gave out. RIght now jayce players have to clear out a significant portion of the wave before engaging on a hammer trade.

theArtifactsDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I can see this being heavily abused on some champions. Imagine if he could run away through minions

Yep. Or this guy TahmKench . Stun, Spit, Escape. Do that one more time - boom. lane is won.

TwitchInMyPantsDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I can see this being heavily abused on some champions. Imagine if he could run away through minions

Lets be real, if walking around the hitbox of 1-3 minions is enough extra running to make Jayce escapes super reliable his escapability was probably already stupid. Though this is assuming he'd ever not take Thunderlords for cheesy poke on those 3 autos.

Off Meta EvanDec 14, 20165 votes

honestly i don't understand why creep block is even a thing. all it does is make the game more obnoxious and give less control over your character.

VolcanuzDec 14, 20161 votes

Without it playing any range champion would be so freaking hard when you have melee junglers / foe. It adds another level of skill in knowing where minions are and how they react when you decide to go full ham.|

EDIT: I would defiantly pick up nocturne jungle again if they changed this though. He would DOMINATE constantly if unit collision was off. Xin too.

TwitchInMyPantsDec 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Without it playing any range champion would be so freaking hard when you have melee junglers / foe. It adds another level of skill in knowing where minions are and how they react when you decide to go full ham.|

EDIT: I would defiantly pick up nocturne jungle again if they changed this though. He would DOMINATE constantly if unit collision was off. Xin too.

Dude I've been playing ADC since S1 and wanted it gone the whole time. Like enough shit is blocked like Kha Ws, many ADC skillshots, crucial mage combo skills, ect. I'd rather them get a .1 of a second more running to avoid scenarios where 3 minions clip on me and my champion spazes and can't move without me killing a minion or flashing. What is desirable about that to anyone?

VolcanuzDec 14, 20161 votes

Off Meta EvanDec 14, 20161 votes

i play many different champions but honestly, ranged or not ranged minion collision is still super obnoxious and not fun to play with. League as many different things that you need to git gud at but knowing the minions shitty AI and understanding your characters bad pathing shouldn't be one of them, its not fun to learn, its not fun to play with, its simply not fun.

XanderthePanchamDec 14, 20162 votes

I was just playing a game and I got minion blocked between 2 casters as their team was coming for me. I had to manually guide my champion out of the minions and around them because pathing is terrible. I got out alive but it was still an unnecessary dangerous situation.

VolcanuzDec 14, 20161 votes

I just don't think you understand how POWERFUL a LOT of champions would become if this were a thing.

IT would change the meta so much that ADC alone would just not be a role or only the super mobile would become usable. Immobile anything would be just god awful and anything with skill shots that get stopped by minions would be pointless to use.

The whole game would turn into who can move the fastest and still does a lot of damage. Or CC that isn't tied to skill shots as minion sitting would just be a thing now.

Ugh just thinking about it makes me mad.

Off Meta EvanDec 14, 20161 votes

the meta is already defined by who is the most mobile and does the most damage. literally look at all the meta champions right now LeeSin Vayne Hecarim Rengar Khazix Zac they're all mobile and all do a figurative asston of damage. i don't think its really that deep of an issue. like minion block is annoying but its not this crazy game defining mechanic, it doesn't hold the same weight as turn ratios in dota but its about as annoying to learn. like i honestly don't see why it would effect anything other than just making the game slightly less annoying.

Gnart Even CloseDec 14, 20164 votes

Or Riot could just figure out a way to remove creep block without breaking the game's balance. Creep block is important to prevent people from just hiding in their minion waves. One fix would be to just have champions displace minions when they get too close, but this could be abused to delay the first wave coming to lane, and getting a favorable push. This (besides the fact that everything is coded as minions) is to my understanding the main reason that creep block still exists. There has to be a more elegant solution.

Creep block is a very toxic mechanic that doesn't add much depth to gameplay, and is essentially a band-aid that can't be ripped off because of other aspects of the game relying on its existence.

Garlic ButterDec 28, 20161 votes

UNIT COLLISION is a very healthy mechanic in league. Again take ghost/build phantom if you haven't mastered it or find it too annoying.

Most objective tactics are based around careful manipulation of unit collision (and one reason why fizz was always seen as incredibly annoying for some to fight, why alistar/Maokai is so strong, etc). Wave Freeze/HardFreeze, Command stun (you can 'pin' someone to a wall or trap them in other champions body block, etc, this freezes their ability to use auto attacks (unless a swing reset ability), attack move, many champion abilities, etc). It's also a key component of 'respect range' champs and their counter play (daisy and tibbers, malz voidlings, can also do interesting things because of unit collision).

Baron's unit collision range is monstrous and you can do very interesting things at baron pit fights with it.

It adds a huge complexity to the game, a feeling of realism ('walking through' another character model feels weird, intangibility from a not ghos...strange in a video game. World of Warcraft was notorious for this and most RP players (the majority of gamers at the time before the Wii existed) found it disturbing). No unit collision in a game is common now due to easier physics to code if no character model consequences so younger folk may be more used to it but it's still pretty bizarre wether you conciously realize it or not. (Granted even humans are technically more than 90% empty space so realistically we SHOULD be intangible but... physics and all that, reality is unrealistic. So imagine making a realistic game (reality already being unrealistic) and then making THAT unrealistic.

All in all it's a powerful and healthy and important game mechanic (the kinds of buffs you'd need to give alistar, maokai and fizz to compensate for everything ghosted all the time would make them seem ludicrously strong compared to its passive subtlety now).

Garlic ButterDec 14, 20164 votes

That would give it a 2400 gold value WITH THAT PART OF THE BUFF ALONE. And replace ghost as a summoner spell entirely for champs that have to run it to be effective.

This would grossly overpower several champs who must either take ghost as one of their SSs (granting them a huge power spike by enabling flash/exhaust/ignite allowing them to also ignore many other suboptimal utility items) or build phantom dancer for the ghosted effect.

This would just be way to insanely broken (unit collision abuse is a very important mechanic in game and what makes champs like alistar, fizz, hecarim, (and Maokai wall/turret pin abuse) etc SO strong.

You even admired it in your own post, unit collision keeps some VERY powerful champions balanced/from snowballing uncontrollably.

Don't forget a ghosted unit can also 'hide' in a larger modeled unit PREVENTING you from targeting them entirely (or a larger modeled unit that's ghosted can 'protect' a smaller unit).

Considering the majority of champions that use this Key Stone Mastery ARE ALREADY THOSE CHAMPS this would be utterly busted.

No it will never happen (again a gold value of AT LEAST 2400 gold on a single extra effect on the keystone (not counting the bonus move speed and slow resistance), 20% life steal is only 1800(actually 1200) for the WHOLE mastery, CoC has 1820 or so, thunder lords is too variable to calculate, wind speakers has about 1600-1800 etc.).

TL;DR: it would give the mastery the value of an entire summoner spell on a vastly shorter CD or an estimated total gold value of 5400-8900 gold (depending on if vs slows or not) easily EXCEEDIBG the value of a summoner spell AND an entire 2400-3800 gold worth of items (and that's stretching it it's gold value is actually a lot higher in optimal situations on said champs if this change were to happen).

If it's ONLY function was no unit collision and 100% slow resistance it would be balanced but 70% reduction + a move speed bonus equivalent to ghost AND actually ghosting you (a far superior ghost spell on shorter CD).

I dunno campaigning for the Ghost summoner spell to slow 70-100% complete slow immunity and 24-35% movespeed over time (champion level) would be a more realistic request to pursue (if not equally unlikely as ghost is already so strong on such champs because of the lack of unit collision thing).

Anecdote: Did you know Annie can ghost and hide inside Tibbers while ghosted PREVENTING HER FROM TAKING NON AOE DAMAGE? It's like having tahm kench eat you except you can still attack! DID YOU KNOW ALISTAR DOING THIS TRICK FOR MANY CHAMPIONS is what inspired tahm kench's ability? DID YOU KNOW you can't attack while tahm kench has you eaten BECAUSE IT WOULD BE TOO BUSTED? Do you realize you can still exploit this and it's been exploited since Ghost was put in game? Do you start to understand why this can never be a mastery with such easy availability?

(There are also programming issues and bugs with granting this on a mastery. There is also the unit collision pinning that happens when a ghosted champ ceases being ghosted (they get stuck or can get other units without a blink PERMANENLY STUCK except for death/recall) its very game breaking/ruining/unhealthy when it happens... also some issues with clipping through the map and being removed from game could become very rampant. It would just be this huge can of worms :/

SoryInAdvanceDec 14, 201620 votes

When the TL;DR is longer than the post itself.

Tis a nice dayDec 14, 201610 votes

Maybe he thought TL;DR meant Tiny Length, Decided to Rewrite.

RainbowIceeDec 14, 20161 votes

Like i got nothing to do and i still dont wanna read it. Unless it was a fun or funny story but its just a complaint.

SoryInAdvanceDec 15, 20161 votes

Sure but still, nothing is supposed to go after the tl;dr but edits. I honestly didnt read a single word of this so the only thing i see is tl;dr and then another sea of text.

XanderthePanchamDec 14, 20162 votes

The TL;DR was just that paragraph. He was summing up what he already said. Then he continued to talk about other things.

OverloadroadDec 14, 20165 votes

It wouldn't replace ghost entirely. There are still champs like Singed, who need it sincr they cannot proc Stormraiders

ZerenzaDec 14, 20161 votes

Not just that but champions that prefer to take ghost such as Olad, Hecarim and Master Yi have no reason to go down the cunning tree completely in the first place, there's nothing there that would overly benefit them and make up for the massive benefits they get if they go down the ferocity tree instead.

The guy is worrying over nothing, the only time i see the ghosting effect being unfair is on champs like Nasus and Mordekaiser who are unhealthy kit wise and are hard to play against when their ahead but other than that i don't see this being an issue.

MAYBE mid lane assassins will take flash+Ghost+Stormraider's and become hyper mobile but that would probably just make them meta not broken(even though ADC's will complain regardless)

theArtifactsDec 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Not just that but champions that prefer to take ghost such as Olad, Hecarim and Master Yi have no reason to go down the cunning tree completely in the first place, there's nothing there that would overly benefit them and make up for the massive benefits they get if they go down the ferocity tree instead.

Really? No reason? This gives them the perfect reason. Let's look at cunning;

1 - Movement speed bonus out of combat. Makes jungle clears and ganking lanes quicker.

2 - Increased damage when solo makes invading jungle easier. Or there's the increased buff length from jungle buffs.

3 - Increased damage to champs below 40%? That's pretty obvious.

4 - Stepping into a bush gives bonus damage? Pretty decent for that initial engage. OR you can give yourself a bit of a regen to get out after that invade.

Now, onto the "no reason" stuff

5 - Lethality / Magic pen? That's a pretty good perk for any champ that doesn't need much CDR.

6 - well.. this is a summoner spell now if we give it "ignore unit collision". Given how easy it is for the three champs you named to proc storm raiders.

Now that they don't need/use ghost that frees up a spot for Flash for escapes, Exhaust to secure that kill (or Ignite), heals/cleanse/tp as needed.

ZerenzaDec 14, 20161 votes

Movement speed out of combat is useful but it's meh in comparison to Fury which all three of those champions would prefer over simple movement speed out of combat.

Increased damage when solo is stupid on jungler's, you never take it because a jungler will most likely always have someone with them due to ganking. An invading jungler could take it but i see no point to over the increased length of jungle buffs.

Increased damage to champions bellow 40% is nice and all but it's only 5% and Hecarim, Yi and Olaf would probably prefer the benefits of Vamparism.

Stepping into a bush to give damage is virtually useless in comparison to dangerous game and even more so when in comparison to "Battle Trance" which give 5% bonus damage while in combat with an enemy champion(Olaf, Hecarim and Yi tend to have extended duels with someone unless of course that person is squishy.)

In the ferocity tree you get 7% Armor Pen or Magic Pen, your choice and while Precision is good it isn't good on champions like Olaf, Hecarim and Master Yi because in master Yi's case he would prefer to shred someone than to have the flat penetration which really only helps delete squishies, the thing is though is in Yi's case especially he can do that without precision.

In the ferocity tree all three of these champions would prefer Fervor of Battle due to the buff to AD it gives and the increased power for prolonged Duels or Fights.

Overall for these champions they would likely want to go to put it 18 into ferocity and not in cunning because the overall benefits they get from ferocity are higher than cunning and the keystone in ferocity is better for them than anything in cunning anyway.

Of course they could go 18-Ferocity and 12-cunning but there's a reason why they do, and in olaf and hecarims case will sometimes go 12 ferocity and 18 resolve instead.

Ravenous HowlsDec 14, 20161 votes

The guy is worrying over nothing, the only time i see the ghosting effect being unfair is on champs like Nasus and Mordekaiser who are unhealthy kit wise and are hard to play against

WHAT?! 90% of the roster pretty much has a better and easier time bullying these two champs then they do of bullying anyone. I would say this change would be worse on champions who are already hyper mobile with damage then Nasus or Mordekaiser who need a lot of items or farm before they hit relevance.

ZerenzaDec 14, 20161 votes

They key counterplay to a juggernaut is their immobile nature, the fact you can kite them and outrun them (most of the time) it what makes their massive damage and raidboss like tankiness fair. At any time in lane if a mordekaiser hits you with the third hit of his Q he would be come ghosted and gain a massive movement speed buff making it roughly impossible to outrun him, you'd probably die almost instantly.

Nasus is the same way, if you've ever been hit by nasus's Q then have him Wither you, you'd understand that the 99% slow he has is more than enough to catch an opponent, if your in lane and he hits you with his Q doing 30% of your health, its pretty likely you won't be getting away if he's ghosted. What makes it worse is their tankiness later on, they become a massive threat since it takes at least 3-5 seconds to kill them but their damage makes it possible for them to take out two squishies before they go, the only counter-play for them is CC and Kiting and if they had the ability to ghost from a keystone it would make a back line squishies life a living hell against them.

As a comparison i used to take Ghost on Illaoi so people couldn't run away from me, i had an 80% winrate with her because it was so easy to catch the back line and murder them.

Ravenous HowlsDec 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They key counterplay to a juggernaut is their immobile nature, the fact you can kite them and outrun them (most of the time) it what makes their massive damage and raidboss like tankiness fair. At any time in lane if a mordekaiser hits you with the third hit of his Q he would be come ghosted and gain a massive movement speed buff making it roughly impossible to outrun him, you'd probably die almost instantly.

Nasus is the same way, if you've ever been hit by nasus's Q then have him Wither you, you'd understand that the 99% slow he has is more than enough to catch an opponent, if your in lane and he hits you with his Q doing 30% of your health, its pretty likely you won't be getting away if he's ghosted. What makes it worse is their tankiness later on, they become a massive threat since it takes at least 3-5 seconds to kill them but their damage makes it possible for them to take out two squishies before they go, the only counter-play for them is CC and Kiting and if they had the ability to ghost from a keystone it would make a back line squishies life a living hell against them.

As a comparison i used to take Ghost on Illaoi so people couldn't run away from me, i had an 80% winrate with her because it was so easy to catch the back line and murder them.

Saying anything about counter-play is irrelevant as so many items or masteries take this entirely away from so many classes outside of juggernauts it's not worth mentioning. It's like saying the counter-play to assassins or marksman is they are squishy but nope! They build Black cleaver, IBG and Phantom Dancer and basically become ranged/hyper mobile fighters with huge sustained damage or burst.

My point was and is that Nasus and Morde have to work exceptionally hard before a ghost mastery would be effective on them. Nasus needs stacks for damage or he won't be able to make effective use of that mobility. This is besides the fact the cunning tree is inherently worse on Nasus then the other two trees. While yes if ahead he would be pretty oppressive with a free ghost every 45 sec with his Wither but remember too that StormRaiders only applies it's power vs slows. Any other hard CC still shuts the mobility down.

Mordekaiser has "0" CC outside of Rylai's and needs at least 3 items to start to be relevant. Both of these champion are extremely fragile early game and can be shut down hard by ranged AD or AP tops. These two are far less scarry then say Quinn or Vayne with this idea. They would be inescapable or uncatchable b/c they have a lot of mobility built into their kits and have ranged harass.

Nasus and Morde have no innate mobility and have to be close to deal damage. I am not saying they would not be scary if ahead with this but I don't think they would be the biggest abusers of such a mastery.

Garlic ButterDec 28, 20161 votes

This is incorrect. The counterplay to assassins is A TANK or CC

It isn't items it's masteries/runes/champion selection.

Items ENHANCE the kiting of a champions kit but do not enable champions whom can't kite to kite (rare working as intended exceptions of course due to the nature of 'attack leading' with relai's and frozen mallet but that's a high end skill and has to do with player skill being used creatively for counterplay).

Of course there is always exhaust. But again thunderlord's with this kind of buff would invalidate the spell while freeing up the spell slot for such juggernaughts to take exhaust or ignite (or tp if objective oriented).

If you play some ARAM you will begin to understand how utterly broken select champs would become with an actually useful mastery keystone (that 'removes' their primary weakness/counterplay points on a VERY short cd that they easily proc).

I've run it myself on mord for instance and it is very strong in its current state (being 1 unit out of range of instant kill or instant Penta ludicrous amounts of times, it gives a strong power boost but having to spend ONE SECOND trying to path around unit collision or a key champ 'hiding' behind the unit collision of a larger champ is extremely punishing).

DolasaurDec 14, 20161 votes

You keep saying at least 2400g for the no-unit-collision effect. That's clearly overstated. Old Phantom Dancer ignored unit collision. Its combine cost was ~500g, and that included additional AS/crit. The calculated value for ignoring unit collision is strictly less than that 500g.

Situationally useful? Yes. Overpowered if added to the keystone without lowering its numbers? Perhaps.

Garlic ButterDec 28, 20161 votes

Factor the movement speed over the course of the game vs availability at level 1.

30% bonus speed (on the low base speed champs that have it) is about 1140-1700 gold, the unit collision ignore about 700 gold (don't forget that means a kill you would be denied and a death you avoid when using freezing and pathing tactics(something permanently ghosted champs cannot use). Notice the slow resistance isn't even accounted for (not enough sources to place a number on such a large amount's value. But when it was 100% it has INFINTE gold value... so Infinity -30%). AND the freeing up or double dip of a whole summoner spell (tremendous value for some champs/match ups)... if everyone got flash and 2 other summoners you'd start to 'get why'

Spell Vamp is similarly hard to calculate value (it's very valuable/weak though champ to champ).

2400 is the optimal value for the champion that this would be extremely strong on. 0 efficiency value to champions that always build phantom dancer(except early game where unit collision is very strong)/permanently ghosted.

the Anarchit3chtDec 14, 20161 votes

What math are using to calculate the gold value? Sounds like you're making up large numbers to try and validate your point.

Garlic ButterDec 28, 20161 votes

Just stop and think for a minute. Research the gold values of 1% movespeed, the mechanics of unit collision (especially on large model champs like maokai, mord, alistar, ult nasus, chogath, etc) and pull up those values. Layer the stack against the passive effects of phantom dancer to its gold cost (remember to factor runes and stat optimality intergers, (45% atk speed effects different champs differently so you have to essentially look at how the stats effect a champ that would take thubderlords for unit collision ignoration).

It would take several hundred (exaggeration) pages to detail you the math but mere minutes to an hour (for the least math inclined) for you to research them on your own (tacit knowledge is...difficult to transfer to someone else but fast and easy to pick up on your own if you try hard or predispositioned to this kind of thing).

Seriously I don't understand why not take 30 minutes to run the numbers before posting (kinda talking to OP).

2400 is the 'middle ground' figure for champs that would get good abuse out of this.

You might do a spit take once you actually do the math and see the value for some champs (which I am never going to post for you. Stop being lazy and do out the work yourself. It's good for your brainmeat...)

the Anarchit3chtDec 29, 20161 votes

So again, its not really there. If it can be gleaned in a few minutes, the same info that it can be gathered from could be provided but it can't so it's nothing but fabrication.

Kirius DarkDec 13, 20163 votes

Most of the time I cant tell it's even proc on champs I take it on Darius Nasus Shyvana They already have some sort of slow on them and I'm already on top of their face, but I'm sure it helps out

VolcanuzDec 14, 20161 votes

For darius its so fucking good. It lets you get in front of them when slowed for another spin.

VolcanuzDec 14, 20161 votes

Yeah we need nasus to hit you with Q then run through the minions you just flashed over so he can Q you again! Fuck people using a mechanic in game to counter you, fuck that i just want to mess people up.

How about you plan ahead your movement so you don't get blocked. Never had an issue using storm on champions like graves or nasus before.

OverloadroadDec 14, 20161 votes

How can you plan ahead your movement, if the minion aggro is so dumb sometimes, they change their position so random sometimes. The worst part is, when they're your minions. Sure, planning your movement will get things done, but I have had so many situations, where my enemies abused the aggro of my minions to block my path.

SkorchDec 15, 20161 votes

You know i think this change could actually cause this mastery to go from one of the weakest to one of the strongest keystones. A damn near permanent ghost is nothing to laugh at.

StaugroanoakDec 15, 20161 votes

Stormraider's is good right now, but the addition of the unit collision effect I think that would be pretty nice. But I also feel like it feels a good niche already.