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Can we stop making more damage? (NOT A "NERF THUNDERLORD'S" RANT)

Squidsmastah··29 votes·3,361 views

So it's obviously the damage meta, so armor and magic resist is worthless since even the supports build damage. At first it started to get crazy, then it began to calm down........ until this happened.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/58/Thunderlord%27s_Decree_mastery_2016.png/revision/latest?cb=20151103094742

This just made the damage meta fly way out of control. I mean, it's FREE DAMAGE! Who doesn't want that? I'm guilty myself for picking this mastery. I have 20 mastery pages and 16 of them have Thunderlord's on them. Also the past champion releases:

Kindred Illaoi TahmKench Poppy (Poppy can be considered a new champ since her rework was so damn big)

These 4 champions are good at a certain thing: dealing damage. Illoai with that popular video where the player ults and without stress solos the entire enemy team all at once. Tahm Kench who can deal just about as much damage as he can take. Kindred who deals massive amounts of %health damage. Poppy who with one combo can take out half your health.

And lets not forget the new DAMAGE item coming out that makes every melee assassin another Zed. There are a lot champs that CANNOT stay in their current state for the release of the "New Assassin Dagger":

Zed Just because you get 2 ults at the same time Talon Already does enough damage, and won't have to try as hard with the new item Shaco We all know this will end badly Rengar (See the above) Yasuo Already unhealthy and this item will officially break him MasterYi The true damage is enough, we don't need %health damage involved LeeSin Don't even get me started on the chaos that would happen

Not only will this item be enforcing the damage meta EVEN FURTHER, it will make an even more unhealthy environment for the game.

Also the reason why people are also so toxic, is because it does get just a little annoying when you constantly get 100-0d by everything that moves in this game.

Also I remember, Riot, you guys saying that you wouldn't forcefully create a meta? What happened to that hmm?

So releasing more things that deal more damage is just bad for the players, it's bad for the game, and it's just bad all around. Please Riot, can we start putting more variety into the releases of new things? Like, I don't know, a new support item, a new support champion, a new tank item, something that isn't solely meant to have a lot of damage in their/its kit?

Anyway thank you for taking the time to read this thread. Here come the downvotes

#rant over

44 Comments

Zarkkast6 votes

My only fear, knowing Riot's balancing team.

Is that once Shaco become absolute broken with assassin's dagger they will stop ignoring him due to his low pick rate and nerf him to the pits making him unplayable.

Mestm973 votes

Good

RoMz5 votes

Damage meta? All I see is tank meta DrMundo Malphite TahmKench are pretty much perma banned in my ranked games.

ExileSorrow1 votes

Even they do dmg oh god. They tried to make season for ADC. but now its utter hell for ADC and AP champions

RoMz3 votes

Yeah I've noticed that too. I don't necessarily think tanks as champions are OP (maybe Mundo) but its clearly their items AP items and ADC items are in a really weird place and LW is garbage. Plus AP don't really have a 'tank busting' item since DFGs removal.

ExileSorrow3 votes

item 3070 item 3151 item 3070 ...W-What do you mean?

Why did you hurt liandry. I demand your apology

Stars Shaper4 votes

That requires one more item to deal noticeable damage and even then (or if you have an inbuilt soft/hard CC) doesn't help you dealing with them even if you land 2 full combos.

LordGeovanni2 votes

tanks shouldnt be burst by the building of just one item item 3151 item 3089 item 3135 . item 3071 item 3142 item 3035 item 3153 item 3156 and many more

Stars Shaper3 votes

"Dealing with" and "bursting down" are 2 different concepts.

LordGeovanni1 votes

when 20-30 % of a full defense tanks hp falls off per attack / ability i call that shit burst

Stars Shaper1 votes

  1. We were talking about AP champions (Mages), so putting in ADs was a mistake since the begin

  2. Who said that I want Tanks to drop 30% of their hp in one skill? I just don't want to use 2 full combos for that.

RoMz1 votes

Don't get me wrong Liandry's is good but DFG was far better but I completely understand why they removed it.

mike in the box1 votes

DFG was never a tank busting item. It was a burst the squishes item.

RoMz1 votes

Incorrect it was originally designed as the AP tank busting item. It was removed because it was abused against squishies with lacking counter play.

"Our initial goal with Deathfire Grasp was to make a "tank-busting" item that could do exactly that: bust down tanks when they're knocking on the front door." - 5.2 Patch notes.

Also the active of the item: Unique: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum health in magic damage and applies the debuff, Doom. Doom amplifies all magic damage that champion takes by 20% for 4 seconds.

Varindran4 votes

Its not really Thunderlord's fault that its so strong right now, the issue is that all the other masteries got nerfed but hopefully the buffs they are getting on the pbe will balance the power out a bit.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Its not really Thunderlord's fault that its so strong right now, the issue is that all the other masteries got nerfed but hopefully the buffs they are getting on the pbe will balance the power out a bit.

For the early game, that thing is sort of bonkers...

mike in the box1 votes

they should remove some of the ap / ad scaling. Make it more of a bruiser/tank damage mastery and less of a carry mastery. Right now its too good for too many kinds of classes. Allso dot should not be able to proc it in there own.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=mike in the box,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nlwi7m50,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-30T20:59:04.116+0000)

they should remove some of the ap / ad scaling. Make it more of a bruiser/tank damage mastery and less of a carry mastery. Right now its too good for too many kinds of classes. Allso dot should not be able to proc it in there own.

They should do something about its early game damage so it doesn't rip near 1/5 of someone's health off just from one proc. That and reduce the ad scaling to .2.

Sasogwa4 votes

As much as I somewhat agree, it's gonna be garbage on Yasuo (item 3087 item 3031 too good) and MasterYi (on-hits, sated, bruisery is way better than an AD caster item)

IronwallJackson1 votes

I think you're right on the money. Autoattackers can't make reliable use of the new assassin dagger, and Yasuo's item core has much better synergy with other items.

Tribbles Foxfolk3 votes

Really, the only reason Thunderlord's is run so much is because of the lack of any good choices for 95% of champions, with dedicated healers (Sona, Nami, etc) and SOME tanks (J4 and Trundle primarily) being the only exceptions.

Thunderlord's is really solid on pretty much every champion, and with most masteries being "Stormraider's Surge" levels bad, there isn't much of a reason to run anything else if you're not a dedicated heal-shield spammer. (Why did they nerf Windspeaker's Blessing? It's not run any less than it was before, the flat bonuses are total garbage...)

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nlwi7m50,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-12-30T00:25:00.752+0000)

Really, the only reason Thunderlord's is run so much is because of the lack of any good choices for 95% of champions, with dedicated healers (Sona, Nami, etc) and SOME tanks (J4 and Trundle primarily) being the only exceptions.

Thunderlord's is really solid on pretty much every champion, and with most masteries being "Stormraider's Surge" levels bad, there isn't much of a reason to run anything else if you're not a dedicated heal-shield spammer. (Why did they nerf Windspeaker's Blessing? It's not run any less than it was before, the flat bonuses are total garbage...)

Pretty sure Fervor is better on Aatrox/Vayne/Twitch/Kog'Maw/etc. It scales so high at 18, literally giving more damage on auto's than any item. Now imagine being able to stack it up in 2 seconds with Twitch's ult...

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nlwi7m50,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-12-30T00:25:00.752+0000)

(Why did they nerf Windspeaker's Blessing? It's not run any less than it was before, the flat bonuses are total garbage...)

That's a pretty good question. What was the impetus for gutting Windspeaker's Blessing resistance bonus? they never explained...

CatAndBookTails3 votes

To be fair, you are overreacting on Poppy, she deals nowhere near as much damage as she used to do, besides it's extremely hard to consistently deal that damage now aswell.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

The Assassin's Dagger is necessary to help struggling assassins (Kha'Zix, Pantheon, Talon) deal with the loss of Last Whisper. Assassins essentially need an item custom made to kill squishy champions.

Retillin1 votes

So, an item that gives 20ish flat armour and come cooldown?

Puppet33r7 votes

Stop saying nonsense like this! None of them are struggling! Kha is only slightly worse then other assassins early but becomes an absolute beast after lvl 11 with 2 evolutions(e and q). After this mark he suddenly starts dropping 1k on-click nukes with ~2s cooldown while resetting his 900 range jump. It is not pretty unless enemy team groups well and stays together. Pantheon completely wrecks pretty much any lane opponent with spear spam and autocrit execute early-mid. Late is not quite as good so you would probably want to go tanky after 2 items. And his jungle clear is really bad without purple smite, but assassin item won't fix it. And Talon already has more then enough damage to all in any squishy post lvl6. And there is no counterplay to it since his combo is almost instant.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

{quoted}

Stop saying nonsense like this! None of them are struggling! Kha is only slightly worse then other assassins early but becomes an absolute beast after lvl 11 with 2 evolutions(e and q). After this mark he suddenly starts dropping 1k on-click nukes with ~2s cooldown while resetting his 900 range jump. It is not pretty unless enemy team groups well and stays together. Pantheon completely wrecks pretty much any lane opponent with spear spam and autocrit execute early-mid. Late is not quite as good so you would probably want to go tanky after 2 items. And his jungle clear is really bad without purple smite, but assassin item won't fix it. And Talon already has more then enough damage to all in any squishy post lvl6. And there is no counterplay to it since his combo is almost instant.

Honestly, Panth isn't even an assassin, so thats more to your point.

And for Kha? He can build tank after item 3071 item 3812 item 3074 with 300 AD and still oneshot your squishies. Actually he needs ult if they're slightly tanky, but he will not die.

Puppet33r3 votes

Personally I prefer item 3142 and item 3156 over item 3071 and item 3074. Flat pen is much better then black cleaver %pen especially if enemy team has no real tanks and you want to make sure that enemy squishies life is hell and you rarely ever do 6 instances of physical damage to have max stacks anyway. item 3812 is great though especially since kha's q is actually a single target spell so you get full 13% lifesteal from it. item 3074 is only good for lane, if you go jungle, you definitely skip it. And, to be honest, there's no point in going too much into tank since enemies don't really have much time to punish you if you play right. I usually just get item 3742 for extra burst and ms boost.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Personally I prefer item 3142 and item 3156 over item 3071 and item 3074. Flat pen is much better then black cleaver %pen especially if enemy team has no real tanks and you want to make sure that enemy squishies life is hell and you rarely ever do 6 instances of physical damage to have max stacks anyway. item 3812 is great though especially since kha's q is actually a single target spell so you get full 13% lifesteal from it. item 3074 is only good for lane, if you go jungle, you definitely skip it. And, to be honest, there's no point in going too much into tank since enemies don't really have much time to punish you if you play right. I usually just get item 3742 for extra burst and ms boost.

item 3142 is nice, but personally I think it's not good enough against tanks while it's overkill against squishies. Maw... not enough AD in my opinion, and the shield never procs ); Rav is amazing - I am pretty sure you have no idea what ur talking about. Rav is an animation cancel that does about the same dmg as an auto attack - this greatly adds to your burst combo, about another 300 dmg. In a recent uh, Redmercy vidya, I think, he shows that apparently you can Rav in mid air, adding even more dmg.

item 3812 Is amazing though. But bleeding out from it... almost makes it not worth it :P

With this build ur much more of a teamfighter with Armor shred, AoE, etc. 1v1'ing is still easy because of the Iso Q, but being a hard to kill assassin has it's benefits.

Puppet33r1 votes

That's the thing. Kha is NOT teamfighter. You can evolve w and go for item 3071 so you will have aoe for those teamfights. But even then you simply won't apply 6 stacks of it... like 90% of the time which makes it kind of a waste(stats are good though). And 5% armor shred from 1 stack that you will apply from w is kind of not worth it.

Your role in teamfights is - wait for enemies to blow their engage and cc then jump in and clean up starting from anyone who wasn't careful and got isolated(and adc usually is isolated since most of his team is in melee range fight with your team). Or, better yet, catch enemies transitioning from one lane to another in their jungle so you can burst them while they are isolated. And the best item for this is item 3142 (just be careful not to break your ulti stealth activating it). I also dont understand what's your problem with bleed since it delays part of the burst and allow you the opportunity to heal/lifesteal it.

mike in the box1 votes

Build tank after 3 times, lol. Games don't last long enough to get to 3 times much less full build.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=mike in the box,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nlwi7m50,comment-id=0004000100000001,timestamp=2015-12-30T20:52:57.030+0000)

Build tank after 3 times, lol. Games don't last long enough to get to 3 times much less full build.

...You're wrong. I can say this flat out from experience.

The Deckowner2 votes

i feel like its more of the tank meta right now, unless the assasin is very fed and its still early in the game, they cant do shit to tanks.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nlwi7m50,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-12-30T04:03:24.460+0000)

i feel like its more of the tank meta right now, unless the assasin is very fed and its still early in the game, they cant do shit to tanks.

Assassins have to snowball like crazy in order to do anything.

However, snowballing is what assassins are made for.

The Deckowner1 votes

tanks shut them down hard tho.

Stars Shaper1 votes

I had the joy of making a PROJECT: Zed panic at me playing Varus midlane with TDL.

He felt how unfair and hurtful Thunderlord's Decree is and how his enemies always feel.

DragonShea1 votes

Too much thunder ,it's shocking.

Sythriel Draken1 votes

The issue comes to deep in the cunning tree. Ferocity has a % penetration where as cunning is a flat penetration. Because of this damage meta, cunning and thunderlords is the obvious go to choice with how short games are and how snowbally certain champions are.

Let's look at the past talent nerfs. Warlords - Tryn and Yas were just butt screwing everyone with these because of their insane crit chance and it's % heal, nerfed into almost unusable.

Ferver- Took out the stacking on minions and just made it so it stacks on champions.. With the amount of damage going around, this keystone is terrible because by the time you stack it, the target is dead or thunderlords would have done better in the situation.

As you can see, because they decided to go after the talents and not the champions, we are stuck in a thunderlords meta where even Mundo, Malphite and other tanks are taking it over the actual tank tree or tank keystones.

What riot needs to do is look at the meta as a whole and fix some of these blatant unbalancing issues. otherwise season 6 is just going to be all thunderlords all the time, and that will breed more toxicity and make more people quit league.

Partholonian3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sythriel Draken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nlwi7m50,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-12-30T01:32:54.837+0000)

The issue comes to deep in the cunning tree. Ferocity has a % penetration where as cunning is a flat penetration.

That's because ferocity is designed for people who want sustained damage that allows you to take down tanks (such as ADCs), and cunning is designed for burst damage that lets you threaten squishies. Of course lots of people take 18/12 or 12/18 because it gives them even more damage to everyone.

The problem is not the difference between flat and %pen, but just the specific numbers are too good on the flat pen mastery. That and the current hypersnowball meta which makes the early game disproportionately important.

I continue to hope that Riot will do something to fix hypersnowballing before the actual season starts, or at worst no more than a few patches into the official season. If they do, then ferocity will improve as a consequence, even aside from anything Riot does to it directly.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

matery yi will just auto you once. alpha strike the whole team. and then he stands there while everyone dies because of the reseting item passive. BADASS. it prolly doesnt work like that but imagine. THE SAMURAI MOMENT. * play some samurai music* while yi is standing with his back to his dying enemies

Lovely Pants1 votes

This is one of the odder threads I've seen in a while.

Adding more damage options in is irrelevant to whatever excess of damage is present in the game. What matters is the numerical tuning of each option and whether they consistently follow the same paradigm of balance.

Introducing new champions that deal significant damage as a part of their role is not any kind of issue. They need to be balanced, obviously, so that the general damage curve they will achieve in a game is suitable towards their role and they are always trading off one strength for damage. Maybe Illaoi passes some threshold of absurdity in her damage scaling. Maybe Tahm Kench doesn't have significant enough trade-offs in his kit. I have little perspective to judge the balance of these things at the moment while I'm stuck shitting around in ARAMs due to reasons, but in an ideal state of balance all they are doing is replacing another champion in the game who would either deal similar kinds of damage or offer significant advantages elsewhere.

Similarly, more damage items do not automatically equal more damage overall in the game. Maybe for a couple of patches if they are overtuned, but otherwise you're picking them instead of a different damage item.

Of course AD assassin's can't stay the same if a new item for them comes to play. They also can't stay the same when any existing item which works with them receives any kind of balance adjustment. When you introduce a new option you cobble the hell out of it until it fits the intended purpose. That's how these things work.

Keystone masteries are the only legitimate thing to complain about from a perspective of adding damage options to the game, in my opinion, because they do just represent a general layer of fat added onto the possible raw damage and defense thresholds every champion in the game now has access to.

WiegrafOfValor1 votes

Couldn't agree more!

Can we get our 5~10 seconds teamfights back? It's ridiculous that 30 minutes of game can be resume in 2 seconds because someone got a ace. Say what you want about strategy and all, but I prefer long teamfights, and at least be able to use 2 spellrotations before someone gets a pentakill..

StigtriX1 votes

I have seen an unhealthy shift in healers like Sona, Soraka and Nami going Thunderlord's Decree. They deal so much damage early game that they can just buy items later and be fine. And even tank supports with low attack speed benefit so much from it that it is hard to justify other choices. It is definitely time for Riot to tweak the other keystones and add more interesting diversity.

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