We need a new AD item to replace the old Bloodthirster

TehNACHO··4 votes·1,370 views

Long story short, I think a late game AD item with a high Attack Damage to cost ratio, and no other combat stats that affect or are affected by auto attacks, is needed for this game. This is aimed at the range of ADC champions of the game, as heavily auto attack based hyper scalers like Tristana have become just a little too rampant in my opinion.

To explain, it should be noted that if you are specifically optimizing auto-attack DPS, you generally only need at most 200 bonus AD or even less before you start maxing out your damage multipliers, Attack Speed and Critical Strike Chance. Just as an example, between the Infinity Edge, Last Whisper, and the Blade of the Ruined King, you're already looking at some 145 AD, and you're already prompted to start buying more Attack Speed as per the Blade of the Ruined King and Critical Strike Chance as per the Infinity Edge. While this may not be the absolute most optimal setup on all auto-attack based ADCs, I hope it already establishes the precedent we're faced here as far as the auto attackers are concerned. Highly valuable AD items optimized for auto attacks already bring you up to the necessary amount before prompting you to invest in damage multipliers just for auto attacks.

This is also where the problem starts however. This is optimization for auto attacks, but not all ADCs express themselves purely through auto attacks. Think champions like Graves, Sivir, and Varus, champions who absolutely revel in Bonus AD as they use their abilities. Back when the Bloodthirster stacked all the way up to 100 AD, these were the champions that were absolutely certain to rush it first (okay I only know Graves and Sivir, not sure about Varus). Now however, they lost their straight up AD item, and without all that bonus AD to fuel their abilities, all of them had a good chunk of their strength knocked out of them. From what I observe, this is a rather large factor as to why auto attack crazy Tristana and Hybrid based Kog'Maw are so dominant in the current meta. They don't require straight up bonus AD to function, they rely more on their auto attack multipliers or roundabout items like the Trinity Force to maximize their damage since the forefront of it comes from multipliers and effects that don't require high amounts of bonus AD. Without a high AD item in the item pool however, this has pushed the bonus AD reliant champions out of the metagame.

What do you think on the issue? Would a new dedicated Attack Damage item help the game, and more importantly, do you think it's necessary to help bring back ability based AD champions who need the bonus AD? Do you think there are more underlying problems with auto attackers that can't simply be solved with a new item? Do you have other (and hopefully better) ideas to help replace the niche the old Bloothirster left behind?

23 Comments

CoDroStyle3 votes

The problem your going to have with such items.. are champs like Rengar, khaz, Riven, Zed... they already can still insta burst someone. giving them an item like this.. which they can then stack with the old bloody thirstier... like 200AD in 2 items...

TehNACHO2 votes

Which is exactly why the example items I listed specifically had unique passives carrying a good chunk of the AD.

I agree, this was a problem with the old Bloodthirster. To avoid this, putting some of the AD on Unique Passives means that it would be impossible to stack these AD items together.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

unfortunately its a bad idea adc's were already a very overshadowing role and they arent the only ones using autos (in s3 when fed) also their actual itemisation is preety epic comparet to what we had before, youmus, botrk,bt, mercurical, diferent adc's use diferent items, we didnt have this before (bt or infinity rush depending on whether you win your lane )

adc's were tonned down to have a spot not the entire spotlight, i personaly also got kinda broke down that their impact is kinda smaller but they are kinda equal now to others

TehNACHO2 votes

Please note that such an item change does not make the ADC role as a whole more viable. Tristana and Kog'Maw aren't going to be able to utilize this new theoretical item as well as the bottom of the ADC role, for example. While fine tuning would be required, do notice that this item is specifically dedicated to the caster type ADCs at the bottom of the curve (or at least not at the top) and thus most likely won't put ADCs back into taking up the entire spotlight like you apparently fear.

Think of it like this: The best of the ADCs at the moment are in a pretty good sweetspot in terms of viability, right? Why not bring the ADCs on the lower end of the curve up to this same sweet spot?

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

they do it already with numbers any item that gives ad is an item that ALL adc's can use as they all autoatack you want item with more ad so ad casting adc would get a buff, but bigger amount of ad will be more profitable for long range carries while close range carries like graves and vayne need some survivability (vayne goes with stealth to avoid damage) cause they allow you to hit them with their range itself, giving them more offense wont do anything good

12tales1 votes

I'm not certain that I like the items you suggest, but I do agree that caster ADCs are suffering unnecessarily from the 4.10 itemization changes, and that the issue ought to be resolved. At the moment, Ghostblade is the only item that could theoretically be said to benefit casters more than auto attackers, while Last Whisper essentially benefits all classes of ADC equally. Every other option for ADC itemization specifically panders to dedicated auto attackers, which is definitely a problem.

TehNACHO1 votes

Yeah I deleted the examples. Too distracting from the actual point of the discussion I wanted to create .-.

It most certainly is a problem. Do you think you have any ideas for items that can benefit caster type ADCs?

12tales3 votes

I think that there's just a general lack of damage multipliers for casters. Armor Pen, CDR and Flat AD are all really useful stats for champs like Varus or Sivir, and at the moment, there's a grand total of 1 (remotely viable) item that actually offers those. I think either buffing the Black Cleaver a bit or exploring additional options for the Brutalizer to build into would be a step in the right direction, although huge flat AD a la the old BT would probably work too.

The reason I particularly like the idea of providing ADCs with more access to CDR is that while that stat benefits casters, it's comparatively useless for champs like Caitlyn or Jinx that just want to right click you to death. While flat AD is really good for casters, it's also really good for auto attackers.

Alternatively, giving Zephyr a bit of love would be nice - it's got the potential to be a really solid item on champs like Sivir, but at the moment, it's simply not worth building except on A) 6 item ADCs, or B) Irelia.

Essence Reaver also has potential.

TehNACHO1 votes

Ahh, yes, someone tried to mention Essence Reaver on the forums, but the way it's designed at the moment makes it a little too gold inefficient in my eyes to do the job (not to mention its build path, which is an entirely different problem altogether).

Good point about CDR. Now that you mention it, there really is a lack of CDR options for AD champions, isn't there?

I think the Black Cleaver is relatively fine where it is, since its beefiness and how it functions seems more directed to and benefits more from tanks/tanky fighters that can last long enough to use it on multiple enemies in a fight. The Brutalizer however seems to be the perfect base for a new AD Caster item (especially considering it's the base to one already relatively decent AD Caster item, heh).

Khodexus1 votes

I actually build Essence Reaver on Sivir BECAUSE it's one of the few sources of AD CDR, and it works great for her (no longer building Tear to compensate for her mana issues, and no longer so reliant on spellshield for mana either). I've also been using it on Caitlyn, because she's also mana hungry, and the combination of high AD, and the CDR makes her that much more deadly with her main damaging abilities (Q and Ult).

TehNACHO1 votes

Due to a massive discussion crash on the forums, I've deleted the example items since they appear to be too distracting to the discussion I want (How would a dedicated AD item affect the game and whether or not it would be a good thing).

Worgslarg1 votes

IMO, we dont need a new item so much as a fixed bloodthirster

TehNACHO1 votes

That could work too. Do you mind offering up an idea of how to do so?

Nsqui1 votes

Bloodthirster would be easily fixed if they gave it a passive that said something like 20% increased Bonus AD. That way you'd be getting that extra damage as you bought more items.

Decaedeus1 votes

I don't agree with this. I don't intend to cause offense, but there are 3 core problems with this.

  1. 2 Unique Passives on the same item. An item should not have multiple unique passives.
  2. Lifesteal. The very concept of a caster AD carry means that they do not autoattack as frequently as other champions. However, a lifesteal item such as BT means that the champion must be autoattacking to utilize the lifesteal stat. Therefore, lifesteal is meant for autoattackers, and we are attempting to find an item for caster ADs.
  3. The old BT was nerfed precisely because it was too one-size-fits-all. It gave heavy AD for caster carries and lifesteal for autoattacker carries. If you introduced this passive on the current BT, you would have the old BT with a shield (even more OP). All that said, I like the idea of the increased AD passive; however, it doesn't belong on an item like Bloodthirster.
Nsqui1 votes

I must say, the changes to Bloodthirster have completely destroyed Graves. He looses so much from not having that early damage spike and survivability from the lifesteal. I mained Varus in season 3, and yes, I rushed BT. I still play Varus now, however, I rush the standard Infinity Edge into Phantom Dancer combo... The new Bloodthirster THEMEATICALLY makes more sense, but a lot of champions gained a lot from that chunk of AD. I would like to see a new item directed towards the old "Bloodthirstier" (see what I did there? wink, wink) ADC's, because I honestly find BotRK underwhelming on everyone except melee assassins (Zed.)

TehNACHO1 votes

Okay, cool, so maybe I wasn't wrong about Varus.

It really sucks too because (don't quote me on this, this is hearsay I got my friends) lately, Riot's been trying to give new itemization to increase the pool of viable ADCs. While it certainly helped Tristana come back to the competitive scene, it really confuses me how AD Caster type ADCs got the short end of the stick like this.

Nsqui1 votes

No, your friends were right. Few ADC's have made it out alive from the itemization changes. Last season, when I queued for a ranked game and played ADC, I felt like I had a huge batch of champions at my disposal that were all equal in their relative strengths and weaknesses. Now, each time I feel as though I have a select few - Kog'Maw, Tristana, Caitlyn, and Ezreal, and I would be a fool to pick any other ones because the strengths of the listed ones are far better than the ones of the other ADC's... my pool has been considerably lowered.

Captain Marvel x1 votes

I don't see the problem. On the non-reliant auto attack adc's (i.e. Lucian), I don't go for attack speed, such a waste with such an awesome passive. I see too many people trying to build him like they would Caitlyn or Tristana. I prefer the CDR on Lucian, much like Ezreal. CDR Boots, Essence Reaver, Ghostblade (that ulti), etc makes Lucian nearly unstoppable. Being able to constantly spam his abilities in-between his aa's is amazing.

So I don't know... I don't see a problem. Plus the new bloodthirster and that 20% LS... mmm. I think people just need to learn how to build the champions rather than have a generic "build" for all adc's.

67chrome1 votes

What do you think on the issue?

Riot intentionally made the changes to make auto-attacking champions have a fighting chance. I mean, they litterally listed that as part of their reasoning in the patch notes.

Corki was the go-to carry in season 1, season 2 saw Ezreal, Corki, and Graves, Season 3 saw Ezreal and Corki take center stage again, and up until recently Lucian has been suffocating the ADC competition.

Those are all very caster heavy marksman, Ezreal in particular and he's been the #1 choice for 2 seasons in a row.

And at a certain point it makes sense - why pick a champion that needs to "channel" their damage output over ~6 seconds when you can pick someone that unloads ~half of it in a second? Burst puts you at a lot less risk and exposes you for a lesser amount of time than sustained damage, and the disparity between AD cast marksman and AD auto-attack marksman hasn't been enough to really pick any dedicated auto-attacker outside of Vayne for most tournaments. Also - ability damage in general tends to have a lot of caveats - like extra range, AoE, skillshots have the potential to strike opponents in brush/fog of war/stealth, and ability damage in general completely ignores %AS slows, blinds, Ninja Tabi AA reduction, Thornmail, and most targeted countermeasures against auto-attackers outside of armor.

Did Riot go overboard? Hard to say - possibly yes considering how stats stack, Riot hitting a fair deal of burst and aiding a fair bit of AA power, and the sluggishness of popular opinion moving to see perfect balance when it's there over sticking with the perceived best.

Daajfr1 votes

There was one change to Bloodthirster in the PBE that gave it +10% AD However it was quickly removed with the next patch. Maybe this could come back?

Khodexus1 votes

What about an item with cooldown reduction, a moderate boost to AD (builds out of B.F. Sword), and a unique passive that grants a % boost to AD, but only for ability ratios? That'd fill the same basic niche as the old bloodthirster, but wouldn't have the lifesteal. Instead it'd be very solidly geared towards a caster AD build, and wouldn't benefit other builds as much.

Could be seen as the AD equivalent of Deathcap?

Decaedeus1 votes

I suggest an item that builds out of Brutalizer and B.F. Sword. It gives 80 AD, 10% CDR, 10 Armor Pen, and a unique passive that grants 15% increased bonus AD.
Cost Analysis: 80 AD: 2880 gold 10% CDR: 317 gold 10 Armor Penetration: 120 gold Total cost at 100% gold efficiency; 3317 gold excluding unique passive Suggested price: 3300 gold Gold Efficiency; 100.5%. (For comparison, Rabadon's Deathcap is 102.8% gold efficient excluding the unique passive. However, Deathcap is 30% increased AP, while this item is only 15% increased AD.)

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