Why do people complain when a Bruiser can kill a squishy?

TehNACHO·Feb 28, 2016·111 votes·7,747 views

I find it so odd when people complain "WOW, this champion only built 1-2 damage items, how can he possibly be killing my squishies?"

I mean I get the logic that if you compare 1-2 damage items vs 5-6 damage items, clearly one is going to do more than the other. But consider that the squishy champions we're comparing here often are running around with 0 real defensive items. I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember from elementary school that 1 or 2 is certainly greater than 0. It really shouldn't be that odd then, that a champion that does maybe just on-par damage still succeeds at being a threat towards someone with weeeeell below average defense.

199 Comments

EndlessSorcererFeb 28, 201656 votes

They don't seem to understand that defensive stats are combat stats.

An item can make you stronger without increasing the raw damage you deal.

RalanrFeb 28, 201618 votes

Just played as Sion vs GP top. I ended up winning lane despite him having a kill over me (I got it back) because I built defense instead of offense.

Sometimes the best offense is a good defense. The kind that becomes an unbreakable wall that keeps moving forward.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20166 votes

People more so complain becasue 1 to 2 damage items on a bruiser is a lot more efficient than 1 to 2 defensive items on a squishy.

RalanrFeb 28, 201633 votes

Because most squishies have the advantage of range over bruisers. Ergo defensive items aren't the best on them because those are built to reduce damage taken. A squishy wants to avoid taking damage in general.

There's a reason melee champions have scaling MR.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20165 votes

Range isn't that big of an advantage over bruisers. Most of them have either MS boost or a gap closer to get around that. You're basically telling people they should build defense on squishys but it shouldn't be as effective anyway. Then whats the point of building defense on a squishy.

RalanrFeb 28, 201620 votes

There isn't much of a point to build defense on a squishy. Lifesteal is their best defensive option outside of burst shields and that's a defense gained through offense.

Squishy champions already have lower base defensive stats than others. They shouldn't be getting equal benefits of defense from defensive items. The same is true for offense items on bruisers. They don't deal the same level of damage that a full damage squishy does.

The thing is, they don't need to deal squishy level damage to kill a squishy because they are squishy.

What do you think is the trade off for building mainly damage?

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20165 votes

That's the heart of the issue. Bruisers don't pay as much on offense for a mainly defensive build as squishy do for it. I mean you say they don't do as much damage. Have you seen what people like Gnar Irelia Jax LeeSin Renekton can do? Their damage is insane.

I mean what is the trade off for building mainly tanky if its not a loss of offense?

RalanrFeb 28, 201617 votes

Pushing power and objective secure.

I've always seen ADCS deal more damage to towers and dragon/baron than any other class.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20162 votes

I mean all the best split pushers in the game are bruisers. Also only bruisers can solo baron, and most of them solo dragon with more ease than squishies.

I think people just over rate the damage and safety most squishy have, and how hard it is for a bruiser to get to them.

RalanrFeb 28, 201611 votes

Squishies certainly have more options to avoid bruisers though. They can't really avoid Baron because they can't dodge auto attacks.

XeroKimoFeb 29, 20162 votes

Only bruisers can solo baron?

These Draven , Kindred Lucian ADC's would like to talk to you.

All the best split pushers are bruisers?

These Sivir Jinx Graves (Small mention as she's more of a sieger over split pusher Tristana ) ADCs would like to talk to you

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 29, 20163 votes

Try split pushing by your self as any of those adc's against a half competent team.

And those ADC's would have to be unbelievably fed to solo baron, to the point its not even a conversation on balance anymore.

ZannithFeb 29, 20161 votes

have you played nasus? havn't seen an adc two hit a turrent, or mages with lich bane? both basically half health a turrent

RalanrFeb 29, 20164 votes

Yes. A single champion with an infinite scaling damage ability that can effect turrets. That destroys my argument completely.

TehNACHOFeb 28, 201618 votes

Is it really?

Bruiser Yi is infamous right now for being one of the most effective Bruisers. As of right now, champion.gg records his most common and best builds with:

item 3931 - Offense item 3124 - Offense item 3006 - Offense item 3742 - Defense item 3053 - Offense/Defense item 3156 - Offense/Defense

Now excuse me if this is a stretch to say, but as the last two items are relatively 50/50 between offense and defense, I effectively see two defensive items on a normally squishy champion.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20161 votes

Notice how many of those items are new and or recently reworked, every item he abuses is less than a 6 months old. Defensive items used to not be nearly as efficient for squishy champions. MAW was so bad people would tell you to build BV on a squishy for MR. This is the effect of "bruiser itemization." Now you have items are more stat efficient for squishys since bruisers thought they needed even more damage.

TehNACHOFeb 28, 201610 votes

Now you're just changing the argument.

Stick to a line. Either champions can or can't get away with variant builds or items themselves are the issue.

Also to be frank, we have a host of completely offensive itemization changes that are more recent than this Yi build, seeing as the Marksman's crit based update came long after the Juggernaut's HP based update. What have we now, with Yi instead of abusing the newer and shinier crit items he is instead going farther back with HP items.

As an aside, your line reminds me of Ezreal, another naturally squishy champion who itemizes some defense into his build.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20161 votes

No I'm not. Its never been possible to abuse brusier items on squishys until these items were reworked or introduced. Name one time before season 6 where we had squishy champions building bruiser like and actually working. Thats the problem, bruiser items keep become more and more efficient to the point where even squishys are building them.

TehNACHOFeb 28, 201611 votes

Well for a start there are the straight up AP Bruisers Ryze Rumble , who are both AP Carries but require the extra bulkiness due to the range of their kits.

Which leads to other short to mid range APs following suit: Anivia Annie Cassiopeia Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks Karma Karthus Kassadin Lissandra Lulu Malzahar Mordekaiser Morgana Swain Veigar Velkoz Vladimir

But of course they don't really count right? Let's keep away from such an easy and predictable argument then.

Aatrox Evelynn (AD Eve) Ezreal Fizz Fiora Gangplank Irelia Jax JarvanIV Kayle Kennen Khazix LeeSin MasterYi (Look up Cowsep. He figured out a Tank Yi build long before Hybrid Bruiser Yi came along) Olaf Nocturne Pantheon Quinn (pre-rework non-ADC) RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Shyvana Trundle Udyr (his offensive builds) Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick

Are all either AD or Auto Attack Centric champions whose primary purpose is the offensive potential they can carry into a team that had off builds that utilized a mix of offense and defense, main builds that benefited from defense due to their flat offensive steroids and lack and/or need for defense, or even in some cases like AD Fizz and Tank Kha'Zix, two traditional assassins, their best viable build was a straight up Bruiser type build.

But no, a champion's build is flexible I guess, so that argument only holds as long as the popular route was those specific bruiser builds. Ignoring that Bruiser builds were in fact both the most popular and most effective routes for many of these champions for at least some part of their lifetime, let's find a clear cut case where a Bruiser item was out of hand.

item 3071 This item anally skewered Tanks and squishies alike when it first came out. For a few months, we lovingly nicknamed the time period as the Cleaver meta. It was literally no exaggeration that some of the best builds for some champions was to build 4 or even more Black Cleavers at once. From Tanky Fighters Pantheon to Assassins Talon , if you could use this item, you must use this item.

I seem to remember my history better than you, which honestly I'd have thought you'd at least covered your ass by saying "the Black Cleaver meta doesn't count" before you challenged me.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 28, 20162 votes

Great one meta, from damn near 4 years ago. Wooo you really put me in my place. Well you said it yourself no point in talking about either of the list you made. One becasue its about AP champs, and AP itemization isn't currently the issue. And two because your list of AD is mostly filled with actual bruisers that were never abusing items.

There are actual ADC's that are considered bruisers now becasue of their retarded itemization. Thats why people complain about bruisers. Becasue every time one becomes strong they break the game, and every time their items become strong shit like this meta happens.

Bruiser meta's are never good for the game. Either through actual champs being strong or cases where their itemization is out of hand.

TehNACHOFeb 29, 201611 votes

It only takes one counterpoint to discredit your argument. That and you wanted it to be an oldie.

Sarcasm is stronk.

"Mostly" is certainly a stretch, especially given the fact that you are clearly ignoring champs that clearly fit your criteria of a bruiser if you're not including them in that mostly category.

And isn't your ADC comment literally a statement to discredit yourself as is?

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 29, 20162 votes

How is my ADC comment discrediting my self? I said that squishys didn't make use of bruiser items, because in the past they didn't. You had to go back to what pre season 3 and the league of cleavers to find something even similar to what we have now. Then you start listing a bunch of champion who aren't supposed to be building squishy and say that they all abuse bruiser items. At least 2/3 of the AD's you listed were designed to build like a bruiser.

It wasn't until Riot introduced bruiser items and over tuned them that it was possible for actual squishys who should be building damage to be considered bruisers. You really think MAW and Steraks was made for ADC's? No, the reason everyone hates bruisers is because if they themselves aren't broken, like Xin, Jax, Udyr, and Mundo to name a few this year, then their itemization is ruining game balance.

TehNACHOFeb 29, 20165 votes

How is my ADC comment discrediting my self?

Because:

Most Bot Lane Marksman (ADCs) don't build bruiser. Top and Jungle Marksmen do (non-ADCs, like Quinn, who was a Marksman of in the past that certainly took advantage of light defense in her offensive kit), but unless you're named Ezreal, the Marksman in actually carry roles are closer to glass cannons.
The few Bot Lane Marksman that do build defense only build 1-2 defense items at most, which contradicts your "People more so complain becasue 1 to 2 damage items on a bruiser is a lot more efficient than 1 to 2 defensive items on a squishy."

And you're totally right, I did have to dig that far, for two big reasons. First of all, the Cleaver meta was infinitely worse than what we see today. Second of all, Balance, on average, is only improving. Edge cases are edge cases yes but we don't have one item literally defining the meta as badly as Cleaver or Warmog's Armor or so on did back in their days (Speaking of, Fratmog's Meta. Another Bruiser meta).

Aatrox is a melee carry. Evelynn is an Assassin. Ezreal is a Marksman. Fizz is an Assassin. (old) Fiora was a melee carry. (old) GP was a Melee Carry. Irelia is a melee carry. Kayle is a hybrid carry in every sense of the phrase. Kennen is an AP Carry. Kha'Zix is an Assassin. Yi is the definition of a melee carry. Nocturne is a melee carry. Quinn is a Marksman. Rengar is an Assassin. Riven is a melee carry. Udyr...well he's Udyr. Xin is a melee carry. Yasuo is a melee carry.

I count 18 champs of my 31 champ list that are intrinsically damage based. This ignores that Dive Fighters JarvanIV LeeSin Warwick MonkeyKing literally straddle the lines of an assassin and an engage tank. This ignores my statement of primarily offensive champions that require defense Irelia Jax Olaf Pantheon Renekton Yorick . At best, Rek'Sai, Trundle, and Shyvana are legitimate bruisers through and through with their given definition. Every other champion however is based in offense or only uses defense out of necessity.

Finally, if you think Xin, Jax, Udyr, and Mundo are a problem now, where were you during S4?

Phuc Dat BichFeb 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Is it really?

Bruiser Yi is infamous right now for being one of the most effective Bruisers. As of right now, champion.gg records his most common and best builds with:

- Offense - Offense - Offense - Defense - Offense/Defense - Offense/Defense

Now excuse me if this is a stretch to say, but as the last two items are relatively 50/50 between offense and defense, I effectively see two defensive items on a normally squishy champion.

Bruiser Yi is

item 1415 item 3111 item 3047 item 3124 item 3153 item 3742 item 3143 item 3065 item 3156 item 3053 item 3748

Some of them may be offense item but the fact that he only build 2 PURE offense items and he can KILL everyone (Tank and squishy) mean that there is a problem

TehNACHOFeb 29, 20163 votes

Yeah, but champion.gg is a little more accurate for the builds we're looking for. First of all statistics, can't go wrong there. Second of all, it only records Plat+ Ranked games so the skill level is there. Finally, it has both the most common build and the highest win rate build. So all in all, item 3931 item 3124 item 3006 item 3742 item 3053 item 3156

Little Stick ManFeb 28, 201633 votes

I'm pretty sure if the 5/0 malphite uses all of his abilites and kills my 0/13 adc it means hes broken yep 100% op

AnidanFeb 29, 20162 votes

So, if I understand you correctly, then the correct action is... Gut every tank in the game so assassins reign supreme.

Understood. Release the nukes!

Zero Skill TankFeb 28, 201618 votes

I don't think people complain about fighter killing squishes, rather they complain about bruiser Yi and Fiora killing basically anyone with ease and real quick.

TehNACHOFeb 28, 201612 votes

The first blind down vote with no comment to disagree with me.

Let it begin.

MaikalFeb 29, 201612 votes

"Because my op adcs should be able to kill melee champions before they reach me, and then if they DO somehow reach me I better have a knockback and stealth Vayne or infinite dashes/blinks Kalista Ezreal to get away again and then kill them."

Nameless VoiceFeb 28, 201611 votes

What bothers me is not when tanky champions can kill squishies, but when a tanky champion can kill squishies easily while being almost impossible to kill themselves.

RalanrFeb 28, 201621 votes

Well if it's against a burst squishy, then that makes sense since they counter burst. If it's against a DPS squishy, then that squishy was probably not kiting then well enough.

Nameless VoiceFeb 28, 20164 votes

Well, yes, they should win eventually.

But the juggernaut class can now usually blow up squishy extremely quickly, and so it feels like "No matter how fed I am, I can still never go near this guy" if you are a glasscannon assassin champion, like Katarina or something.

RalanrFeb 28, 20168 votes

Juggernauts build mainly health. So health damage items hurt them more than others.

Remember that if a burst champion can't kill with their combo, then they can't kill. Plus a burst champion should target squishy champions. Not beefy ones.

GorgiolioFeb 29, 20162 votes

How do you kite tank akali?

BluePolarizerFeb 28, 20163 votes

a tanky champion will never kill a glass master yi or fiora.

mathematically, tankiness makes you better in a 1v1 slugfest assuming equal steroids, as long as you are outdamaging enemy lifesteal. That is why an ADC with Tabis always beats an ADC with Zerkers in a pure 1v1 if they have equal range and steroids.

In a 5v5, it is very different. In a 5v5, ranged damage is supreme over all because nobody is going to stand there slapping each other.

ZT XperimentorFeb 28, 201610 votes

People seem to be rather ignorant of this. Tanks have cannons and bouncers have muscle; they aren't there for show and you sure don't want to provoke them.

Spizzle9000Feb 29, 20161 votes

But like then what's the point of being a squishy at all? I mean, if you think about it, what's the point in squishies at all? You could just have a team of five bruisers and do fine other than the lack of ranged harass (which is really the biggest weakness of bruisers). If squishies didn't exist, we wouldn't need other squishies to counter those squishies. Correct me if what I'm saying doesn't make sense at all because I feel like it might not.

KING 5HARKFeb 29, 20162 votes

Getting kited by a fucking ezreal/any Champ with a simple slow is soooooooo fun

EvilRabbittFeb 28, 20167 votes

I like when people whine about Volibear killing them in the game at level 1 or 2. Who thinks "lemme fight the champion with 150% hp listed" while on equal grounds >.> #Bronzelothings

...maybe I should play Volibear now that I think about how silly people are...

TotalJerkFeb 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

...maybe I should play Volibear now that I think about how silly people are...

Then someone has the sense to pick Morgana, then you begin to hate everything.

SleepyWolfieFeb 29, 20166 votes

Your answer: http://inquisitiveeater.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Consultant-Mineral-salts-are-an-elegant-choice-for-sodium-reduction-in-bakery.jpg

Yosuke ApperuFeb 28, 20164 votes

Things that bother me are when bruisers can match the damage and burst of an assassin. Also when voli bear builds almost full tank and matches my damage as an assassin. That's absolutely ridiculous.

NipsahoyFeb 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I find it so odd when people complain "WOW, this champion only built 1-2 damage items, how can he possibly be killing my squishies?"

I mean I get the logic that if you compare 1-2 damage items vs 5-6 damage items, clearly one is going to do more than the other. But consider that the squishy champions we're comparing here often are running around with 0 real defensive items. I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember from elementary school that 1 or 2 is certainly greater than 0. It really shouldn't be that odd then, that a champion that does maybe just on-par damage still succeeds at being a threat towards someone with weeeeell below average defense.

For me it's because as a squishy I usually have to auto them many many times to kill them whereas they all seem to have some quick and easy to use gap closer and some kind of stun or snare to go with it and on top of that they still kill me in 2 hits. In my opinion bruisers don't pay enough of a price to get as much damage as they do while still being somewhat hard to kill - not as bad as a full tank mind you but enough that if they are ever moving toward me I have to either find some way to kite/CC or flash or I'm just dead.

TehNACHOFeb 29, 201614 votes

if they are ever moving toward me I have to either find some way to kite/CC or flash or I'm just dead.

...That's how Marksmen are supposed to handle their problems in the first place.

NipsahoyFeb 29, 20161 votes

The point I was making is that it's too easy now for bruisers to output damage quickly in bursts where they can kill squishies easily, yet squishies can't kill them easily in return. It doesn't matter how much damage you can do it matters at how effective you are at outputting your damage. Yes marksman are supposed to kite obviously but you can't kite everything or predict every flash and anytime you get near a fight someone is always in range to close the distance and now they simply delete you instantly.

I think marksman with dashes or blinks or whatever term you want to do are actually okay, but the less mobile ones in my opinion are too easy to lockdown and kill and it's too hard to output their damage. I mean think back to previous seasons. Renekton was always a lane bully and a strong early/mid game champ but did typically fall off late game. Now with the itemization changes he can build 2 damage items, then go either tank or hybrid items and he is a lethal threat still late game to any squishy whereas in previous season he wasn't really a lethal threat on his own at least it took him sometime to kill you. Now you die immediately during his stun or you are chunked so incredibly low you are effectively out of the fight.

TehNACHOFeb 29, 20165 votes

Well yeah, and those same Bruisers who are good at burst are ass at killing tanks.

Just like the deal with Assassins.

Just like the deal with Mages.

Look I get what you're saying, for the immediate interaction between a Bruiser and a Marksman, the Marksman is at the disadvantage if they get caught. But that's just how the game is supposed to work. Marksman caught by any Burst Class are kinda screwed and that's just the natural order of things.

NipsahoyFeb 29, 20161 votes

The problem is overall damage is a lot higher this season than it ever has been. Look at LCS and almost every marksman that gets picked has mobility. You almost never see any marksman that doesn't have mobility unless you specifically build a comp around protect the marksman. Look at the TSM vs C9 game. TSM took Kog'maw and drafted Lulu, Braum, Poppy, and someone else just to keep that Kogmaw alive and they still couldn't because bruiser damage was too strong, but to me when you have to pick an immobile marksman and then draft 3 other champions just to keep that champion alive and still can't that says there's probably some kind of issue.

I mean the top ADCs are Lucian, Ezreal, Corki, Graves, Quinn who all have mobility. Kogmaw was picked just because his damage is insane. That definitely says there's an issue right now and I think anyone pretending there isn't just doesn't understand the game.

Damage and burst damage is just through the roof in this game right now and it makes not having extra movement too much of a liability.

Dan AbnormalFeb 29, 20165 votes

it was the gp damage, and gp with 2 IE is hardly a bruiser lol

macromiteFeb 29, 20162 votes

yup, that's actually the point of a bruiser. take a few hits, and still have relevant damage. relevant damage means that squishies should respect that character, which generally in turn means that the character needs to be able to hurt the squish a lot.