I don't like Phantom Dancer from a design standpoint

TehNACHO··73 votes·3,645 views

I thought the point of making sure no Critical Chance item is directly tied to defensive stats was so that Critical Chance building carries don't get tanky stats, yet here's Phantom Dancer, a Critical Chance item with a passive defensive steroid. I just don't see good justification for this.

  1. Crit carries are primarily DPS by nature, so their primary defense should be being Bursted down by raw damage. Defensive stats negates this as a fundamental weakness, which makes no sense. Maybe this could be justified if, for its defensive steroid, ADCs are also doing significantly less possible DPS by building this item, except

  2. Phantom Dancer grants the highest Attack Speed of the Zeal items, and therefore is the best DPS option as well (sans triple hitting off of Runaan's). This seemingly turning into the best ADC item doesn't even make sense when you consider that

  3. Phantom Dancer doesn't even represent an ADC play style or gimmick. ADCs poke from range item 3094, they are responsible for wave clear item 3087, they need to flexibly team fight and DPS item 3085, but they don't Tank through damage item 3046. Maybe you can make a case that the Melee Crit carries do need that sort of tool, but that would at best turn the argument into "Make Phantom Dancer a Melee only item".

I've put a few thoughts together

  1. Make Lament a stacking passive: This is the smallest change you can make to Phantom Dancer that could still make it do its current job, but also make it make more mechanical sense. If, instead of instantly applying a 12% Damage reduction, but instead a 3% Damage Reduction that stacks to 15% as you keep auto attacking a target, you are still playing by DPS champion rules. It still irks me that a Crit carry could potentially get free defensive steroids, but at the very least, you would still have the weakness of a normal ADC by having time commitments and being blasted before your damage can ramp.

  2. Nerf Phantom Dancer a lot: The least creative answer, and in my opinion the least fun.

  3. Rework Lament: You know what the Zeal item archetype doesn't have? Emphasis on ADCs kiting. Maybe, dancing around their enemies? Give Phantom Dancer a passive similar to Furor, where every time you hit somebody, you get a move speed bonus. Maybe it's only active if your target is within a certain range of you, maybe it stacks, maybe it's a massive move speed bonus that rapidly decays until you attack again. Just something that emphasizes proper orb walking and kiting.

What do you guys think about Phantom Dancer?

EDIT: Well apparently you guys really like thinking you're a lone carry as ADCs. I'll keep that in mind. Removed a single phrase that doesn't change the content of the rest of the post.

72 Comments

Sightless6623 votes

I thought the point of making sure no Critical Chance item is directly tied to defensive stats was so that Critical Chance building carries don't get tanky stats,

No, not really. A longstanding goal of ADC itemization was giving carries a way of opting into defensive options without completely gimping their offensive potential. We've seen a lot of changes in the ADC update and in the year preceding it aimed specifically at that goal. BT was given a shield, Death's Dance and its damage mitigation was introduced, and PD had damage mitigation attached. It's why we added Merc Scemitar as a QSS upgrade option a long time ago. That was specifically the goal. You may not like it, but it was absolutely the direction that Riot intended to go with ADC itemization.

so their primary defense should be being Bursted down by raw damage. Defensive stats negates this as a fundamental weakness,

"Negates" is far too strong a word. "Slightly mitigates" is a more accurate description, particularly given how at any given time at least 4 members of the enemy team will be unaffected and free to apply all the burst they want.

Phantom Dancer grants the highest Attack Speed of the Zeal items, and therefore is the best DPS option as well

If you discount how all of the other items give some form of damage boost, I suppose. Even in the late game situations where it starts to be true, I'd cite this more as an example of the mediocrity of RFC.

Phantom Dancer doesn't even represent an ADC play style or gimmick.

None of the items do. They don't represent "playstyles", and the playstyles you cited are contrived ways of trying to make this fit your argument. Each just gives a specific benefit that carries can make use of, and at least 3 of them offer a strength that carries could normally lack. Runaan's gives multitarget DPS (something that is very explicitly NOT a normal ADC characteristic), Shiv gives waveclear with some AoE burst (and again, it's normally not the ADC who is responsible for waveclear), PD gives protection against whoever you're autoing (safer dueling and assassin protection), and RFC gives a bit of poke/burst. None of these are playstyles. They're just smaller strengths.

Hell, if you really need a "playstyle" excuse, here you go: A large number of AD carries fight 1 on 1. The item supports that playstyle. Boom. There you go.

I've put a few thoughts together

Your first two suggestions are predicated on the idea that PD is strong enough to need nerfs. I strongly disagree with that notion. It's purchased less often than hurricane, isn't more successful, and fulfills a useful niche. Your personal distaste for defensive options for ranged carries doesn't persuade me. I see nothing to indicate that the item is in any way out of line.

You know what the Zeal item archetype doesn't have? Emphasis on ADCs kiting.

Yes, they do. They all give movement speed, enough to help you kite easily. This is important to keep in mind, because it means that if you're going to distinguish this item from the movement speed the zeal line already offers through a furor effect without leaving it terribly weak, you'd need to make it strong enough to easily keep them away from immobile champions. The potential for AD carries to do that is already a sticking point for a large number of players. If your goal is to make itemization less annoying, you're not going to do a great job.

What do you guys think about Phantom Dancer?

I think it's a very normal item that isn't worth this much consideration.

Gregor Gysi4 votes

Why isn't your post at the top? Now I had to delete my post because your post is just way better :(

E: Just stalked your post history. Every post of yours is great, keep up the good work.

Sightless667 votes

Thank you. That's kind of you to say.

Hawkefire2 votes

I disagree with you on the "slightly mitigates" part. The current iteration is a large reason why tank yasuo works so well, and is one of the biggest cornerstones to its effectiveness.

Honestly on a large amount of champions, even non-adc champions I have been selling my boots and buying PD on them when games go into extreme lategame (I only do this when I have a second movement speed item built though, such as trinity force or dead mans plate, that way I can still attain a movement speed that is fairly close to those that have boots), and it generally works incredibly well.

Sightless662 votes

The current iteration is a large reason why tank yasuo works so well, and is one of the biggest cornerstones to its effectiveness.

Not really. When Tank Yasuo was at its strongest, the predominant build did not purchase the item within the first two items, and often did not buy the item throughout the game. Until the ult's armor penetration was tied to crit, it wasn't a necessary item. Even now, I'd argue that its importance to the build is overshadowed by the items that actually make him tanky (Frozen Mallet).

It helps, but the build would continue to function without it, just as it did before.

Honestly on a large amount of champions, even non-adc champions I have been selling my boots and buying PD on them when games go into extreme lategame

Of course. That's fairly expected. Selling boots for a slot efficient movement speed item has been standard practice since at least Season 1. The main reason PD is the item of choice for this is because it's the only real option. Shiv and RFC don't scale well into the late game, particularly on melee champions (which pretty much incorporates all non-ADC champions who would consider this an option). Hurricane of course doesn't work at all.

Saianna3 votes

A longstanding goal of ADC itemization was giving carries a way of opting into defensive options without completely gimping their offensive potential.

Something like...

item 3156 THIS?

or maybe like

item 3072 THAT?

or...

item 3139

Maybe...

item 3812 This ?

Tbh, I just caught you on a lame lie. ADCs have already shitton of items designed to get them harder to kill. PD is just 1 more slap in the tanks face.. But who cares of 1 slap in goddamn sea of slaps and punches, right?

Sightless662 votes

Yes, like all of those. Thise are the other examples i brought up myself. How exactly do you think bringing up the same things i did "catches me in a lie"? Do you think I said PD was the only defensive option carries have.

You do realize that all of those items either did not exist, did not have defensive stats, or were not viable for ad carries in the past, right? They were all changed or introduced for this purpose. PD was changed at the same time Death's Dance was introduced.

Seriously man, if you're going to say someone is lying, the least you can do is actually be specific about what you think the lie is. How else do you expect anyone to respond?

Droogzy2 votes

Did you literally stop reading after that sentence?

Off Meta Evan4 votes

I don't think giving ADCs defensive options is a very good idea tbh, or even just carry roles in general. defensive options usually lead to crazy ass stupid shit like like old the old Kalista and item 3053 combo or old item 3156 with Graves. i'm fine with lifesteal items but PD reducing damage makes 1v1ing an adc extremely hard in a time when marksman are already very strong. not to mention what it does for Yasuo where all you need is item 3046 item 3022 and you'll have a shit ton of damage with a shit ton of tank.

ChaddyFantome5 votes

The Double Dancer Combo item 3812 item 3046 Know it , and Fear it.

The problem with the number 3 option is that this item space is already reserved for item 3078 as is.

ViiLLAiN2 votes

Graves

Astôlfo5 votes

Skirmishers (20%) + Death's Dance (essentially 15%) + Phantom Dancer (12%) + Knight's Vow on support (12%) + Bond of Stone on support (6%)+Maokai ultimate (20%)

(.8 x .85 x .88 x .88 x .94 x .80) ≈.40 = 40% damage taken = 60% DR

And then you have armor, which applies around a .55 multiplier with 80 armor (a very low number, basically would be just base armor).

And then you factor in him getting like 200 of each resist with his E, which makes the .55 multiplier closer to .33.

That ends up with around 81% DR.

Have fun~!

--Riot

The Blue Rajah4 votes

Just for the record, item 3812 doesn't give damage reduction. You still take the same damage, a portion of it is simply applied as a bleed.

Astôlfo2 votes

It might as well be damage reduction because it reduces burst, and lifesteal will heal it back over said DoT time. That's my point, hence, the "essentially".

50000000000000001 votes

If we're assuming max stacks of his Quickdraw, then I think it's safe to assume we're doing DPS, not burst.

ShaolinToilet1 votes

How do you even let graves get maxed stacks

ZephyrDrake4 votes

ADCs don't duel 1v1? what the hell does Vayne Draven Lucian do then?

Supreme Senpai692 votes

Simple. They duel 1v5.

Ralanr4 votes

I think it's because PD is encouraged to be a dueling item. I tend to get in on Lucian because everyone wants to fight while I just want to farm (I really shouldn't play Lucian with that attitude).

JackMcSnipeyz4 votes

It does have a niche, it's for dueling ADC, like Draven, Graves, Lucian even a bit of vayne. It's for single target focus,

hurricane is for teamfights, shiv for wave clear and firecannon for poke.

I dont feel like the passive is too strong, but i'd happily drop it to 8% in favor of making me pass through units ALL the time like old PD

BakedLotion1 votes

{quoted}

It does have a niche, it's for dueling ADC, like Draven, Graves, Lucian even a bit of vayne. It's for single target focus,

hurricane is for teamfights, shiv for wave clear and firecannon for poke.

I dont feel like the passive is too strong, but i'd happily drop it to 8% in favor of making me pass through units ALL the time like old PD

What do u mean even a little for vayne? She's THE dueling adc lol

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

You're right, it's just that i see most vayne players rush statik for burst and firecannon for the poke before going in for much stronger Q (the target is usually dead before they actually "duel")

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Phantom dancer is intended to be an item for ADCs who want to duel. We already have Rapidfire Cannon for increased damage to a single target. How else can we emphasize dueling than single target defense?

Evewynn4 votes

Ramping damage versus a single target that resets when switching targets? The technology is there.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

That would make it into an on hit item, not an ADC item

Evewynn6 votes

that's like saying the damage reduction makes it a tank item not an ADC item.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Except that on-hit champions already want attack speed. Tanks would only want the damage reduction.

LordGeovanni1 votes

free attack speed for damage reduction isnt bad tell it too my Infinity edge Phantom dancer Warlords bloodlust and rest defensive items bruiser trundle.

Primaquarius3 votes

Dont worry, lots of players prefer Statik Shiv over PD anyway

TehNACHO2 votes

Factually speaking, Phantom Dancer is picked over Statikk Shiv.

Statikk Shiv: Mid 10s to high 9s Phantom Dancer: Low 11s to Mid 10s

Rivuo2 votes

{quoted}

Factually speaking, Phantom Dancer is picked over Statikk Shiv.

Statikk Shiv: Mid 10s to high 9s Phantom Dancer: Low 11s to Mid 10s

its a item that has never been balanced for 2 seasons now

hunterspec2 votes

{quoted}

its a item that has never been balanced for 2 seasons now

You are right, i'd prefer the PD with dodge back please.

hunterspec3 votes

Keep is the way it is, don't nerf it into the ground like you are suggesting.

don't 1v1 Vayne [zombie-brand-mindblown]

TehNACHO3 votes

Keep is the way it is, don't nerf it into the ground like you are suggesting.

I'm glad you like to actually read posts.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

item 3046 on some adcs who have and can 1 vs 1 it is good

Draven Vayne

Tik1152 votes

I think Phantom Dancer is fine...IF Damage reduction is like how slows are calculated now, that being the strongest one is the only one which applies

that way theres no fear of stacking DR

NineTailedMystic1 votes

RIP my PD Garen build

Saianna2 votes

ADC favouritism at its finest

but yeah, those evil mage fanbois are the bad guys, amIrite?

YumaS2Astral2 votes

The problem isn't Phantom Dancer itself. The problem is that this item is being abused by some champions like Yasuo or Graves which already have defensive mechanisms on their kits, and Phantom Dancer makes them even harder to kill or outduel. Phantom Dancer was meant to be a defensive option for ADCs which do not have natural defensive mechanisms, and is completely fine on them. The problem is the other, aforementioned champions.

0DESTROYERZ01 votes

lol i dont even build statik shiv on yasuo anymore. I go straight pd and it works wondersitem 3046

Paradise Proxy2 votes

honestly, PD only exists as a yasuo item and makes him ridiculously difficult to play against

VexingRaven2 votes

Give Phantom Dancer a passive similar to Furor, where every time you hit somebody, you get a move speed bonus.

Jesus fuck please no. Getting kited out and melted by solo ADCs already way too common for assassins.

Teridax681 votes

I mostly agree with this, I don't think any marksman item should provide damage reduction, so much as better means of avoiding damage, and as long as we're stuck with damage-reducing full damage items, champions like Graves are going to continue abusing them.

I'd go with option 3: remove Lament completely, and instead turn Spectral Waltz into a massive movement speed boost when walking around a nearby target, e.g. +20% movement speed or even more when strafing targets at close range. The idea is that it would allow you to dance around enemy shots and projectiles, and making it exclusive to strafing, rather than movement towards or away from a target, would allow it to give a massive boost without bleeding into kiting or sticking power.

Papa Andrei1 votes

I like your topic alot. It fits how moba adc are supposed to play. Look at smite for an example, their tank items, are just tank, with added tankiness. They have one defense/offense item, and those are just as buffing items for tanks. The higher damage items, all just so that, damage.

JustMonika131 votes

I've been saying that it's a tad bit too powerful but whatever none of my business. I'll continue abusing it on the "faceroll" samurai.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I'm actually pretty cool with having an AS-Crit item for duelling, but giving straight-up giving an item % damage reduction is just dumb. The MS towards units is also dumb because as soon as someone realises that they can't deal with having their damage gimped by that % damage reduction, they can't get away.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

From a design point of view, item 3046 is totally fine in my opinion. You are giving examples of ADC's "jobs" and showing items that fit these jobs. But there is one you forgot actually.

Countering split pushers: item 3046 Yes, that can actually be the job of the adc. Look at the marksmen update Riot made. Look up Quinn's description. "No one counters a split push as fast as Demacia's wings". What do we need to counter a split pusher, since these guys usually have alot of dueling power? We need to be a good duelist ourselves. PD is giving us the power to do exactly that.

And just because you are the ADC doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to have defensive choices. PD is a defensive item meant for ADC's and it fits perfectly for that. It is still tied to you attacking someone. It isn't a tank item, because it isn't giving you general tankiness. It just reduces the damage of one target and you have to attack that target.

Dengeden1 votes

That wasn't the point, the point was that the crit was gimmicky on bruisers.

I know that 12% damage reduction sounds scary but it's a number like any other, no different from the LS and peel ADCs can get. I know that PD takes away the option of "I win any trade in melee range" that bruisers go for but screw that.

Dealth1 votes

Stop viewing it as a marksman item and start viewing it as a close-range duelist item because that is what it is.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

phantom dancer's role was intended to be dueling, compared to team fighting from runaans, wave clear from statikk, and sieging/safety from the very poorly named rapidfire cannon

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