Shouldn't Akali and Ekko be treated more like Skirmishers than Assassins?

TehNACHO·Oct 25, 2016·70 votes·3,561 views

To me at least, it feels like the way they tackle problems are more similar to Yasuo or Fiora than Zed or Katarina. I just don't imagine their kits having the precision , or being balance able if they had the front end burst of an Assassin, at least without radical changes probably far outside of the scope of a class update. On the other hand, they do function on many traits of skirmishers like having their damage either spread out over time or requiring them to commit to a certain time table, or highly situational, short lasting, but powerful defenses.

Two cents. I think it's worth recontextualizing them.

59 Comments

Pierce The VealOct 25, 20169 votes

They should.

So far Akali changes=akali is gut.

ShipletsOct 26, 20161 votes

Well here is my question is she gonna still be able to dodge the first part of zeds ult? Because the shroud now stops him if he has no vision.

Pierce The VealOct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well here is my question is she gonna still be able to dodge the first part of zeds ult? Because the shroud now stops him if he has no vision.

That should still work I think.

YuGiHoOct 25, 20167 votes

have you played akali? she his supper squishy and had 0 cc or defensive ability other than shroud that the update is making worse. she could play more like ekko or dianna i she could take more of a hit or had better cc but riot doesn't want tank akali so she has to be all damage all the time. this update should have made her the #1 single target assassin but thats not what happened

LankPantsOct 25, 20168 votes

have you played akali? she his supper squishy and had 0 cc or defensive ability other than shroud that the update is making worse.

Many Akali players build and play her basically the same as Irelia. You go your single offensive item in Gunblade, which is similar to Irelia's Triforce and you build into full tank items like Spirit Visage, GA and Sunfire Cape. Then you spam out Es for damage in fights. This is actually the best Akali build right now.

ShifuneOct 25, 201618 votes

The problem with that is that even though it might be her best build atm, it isn't her intended playstyle. By that logic, Riot should have balanced Ekko around his tank build since that was his best build path for the longest time. But that isn't his intended playstyle so they are trying to get rid of it.

paisyOct 25, 20161 votes

This

LankPantsOct 25, 20164 votes

A true assassin Akali build hasn't been viable since season 3. I doubt it can be with her current kit. She has a kit that makes her want defensive stats.

Tank Akali also isn't really the same as tank Ekko, tank Ekko completely ignores all the intended weaknesses of the champ while getting all of the strengths and being a high damage unkillable bruiser. Tank Akali is an AOE bruiser, she's basically a weaker Hecarim. Her existing isn't detrimental to the game and with the current state of the game there's really no way to make Akali (or Ekko) want to build damage over durability.

Edit: Since I didn't get myself across very clearly here, I'm not saying that Akali will never want AP, more that she'll never build straight assassin. She's never going to go item 3146 item 3285 item 3100 item 3157 or some shit like that. Your best case for an Akali build is something like item 3001 item 3116 , a Skirmisher style build. Your realistic case is item 3065 , more in line with an AP Diver.

Hinagiku33Oct 26, 20161 votes

I've always found something like item 3020 item 3146 item 3100 item 3157 item 3001 item 3065 to be pretty effective.

The armor on Hourglass and the MR on Abyssal and Visage go with the bonus Health on Visage to make her more durable to survive an extended engagement. To AD off Gunblade also gives Akali more Spellvamp which combines with Gunblade's own Spellvamp (now an "Omnivamp") and Visage's heal buff to let her drain-tank to victory. Lich Bane goes great on Akali because her 3 ult charges and the low cooldown on E and Q mean she can get 1 spellblade proc for her burst and always have another spell on-hand to proc it again if needed.

The fact that I've always felt the need to be a little tanky to succeed in recent years is probably a bad sign. The rework lowering her burst just makes it worse.

I'm already considering working in items like item 3078 / item 3025 / item 3748 instead if Akali just blows up before she can kill anything.

KoKobotoOct 25, 20166 votes

Ekko should be a skirmnisher not an assassin Looking at the cinematic they made for Ekko he is definetly not an assassin Tank Ekko is toxic

PoskeOct 25, 20161 votes

She might see play in high elo as assassin given that she no longer autoloses to new item 2043

LankPantsOct 25, 20162 votes

She won't see play as an assassin in high Elo, even if pinks are weaker that doesn't matter, she's taking so many direct nerfs that she'll just be unplayable.

PoskeOct 25, 20161 votes

What nerfs?

LankPantsOct 25, 20161 votes

Passive does less damage and heals for less in almost every case. W is being made garbage in every way, can no longer control placement and has halfed duration at low ranks. E is losing DPS. R is losing half of its ratio and a good chunk of base damage.

https://twitter.com/ricklessabandon/status/790770775301120000

PoskeOct 25, 20161 votes

I think W was made garbage because of vision changes

So she is just losing dmg and gaining nothing in return?

LankPantsOct 25, 20161 votes

So she is just losing dmg and gaining nothing in return?

Unfortunately no, she's losing damage, getting longer CDs and being made more clunky with nothing much in return.

The Yetii RiderOct 25, 20161 votes

Shroud no longer countered by pinks.

She's being nerfed for this massive buff.

PermabannedGarenOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Passive does less damage and heals for less in almost every case. W is being made garbage in every way, can no longer control placement and has halfed duration at low ranks. E is losing DPS. R is losing half of its ratio and a good chunk of base damage.

https://twitter.com/ricklessabandon/status/790770775301120000

rick maher ‏@ricklessabandon @Skyeshipi gw is poorly bound right now, but it's more of an assassin mechanic than anything else

God this guy is dumber than dirt, lol.

NineFluffyTailsOct 25, 20163 votes

Her ult's damage output being drastically cut for one. It's going from 100/175/250+.5 AP to 50/100/150+.25 AP and going from 2/1.5/1 second cooldown to 2 across the board. Also her E is having its cooldown tripled. As for her shroud, it's down to 4 seconds at rank 1 back to 8 only at 5 while being only castable on herself so no using it for vision/slowing/juking between brush, etc, and the movespeed immediately ends upon leaving instead of decaying, it also takes about a third longer to cast now, which completely negates the idea of using the tiny blink attatched to it to 'dodge skillshots'. Her passive is changed to a 2 hit with a cooldown system that results in lower damage than her current pasive and lower sustain through losing spellvamp and getting flat heal based off ad instead.

An Unseen RengarOct 26, 20161 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Akali

sorry man, most akali's dont build tank, or I should say the ones that dont have the highest chance of winning. Also akali one tricks at high elo mostly ago assassin akali

ShipletsOct 26, 20161 votes

I go AP magic pen and it seems to work

Hemulen MagiOct 26, 20166 votes

My sincere opinion is that fighter/bruiser Akali is healthier and feels more fair than assassin Akali.

As an assassin, her burst sustain forces her to be balanced around being too feast or famine. If she feasts, she bursts you while out-sustaining any retaliation from you or your teammates. If she is in famine, she dashes in but fails to do enough damage to leave an impact and fails to sustain enough to survive as she instantly implodes. So in that state of balance, she gets dumpstered into very rarely getting the chance to feast because it feels unfair when she is an unstoppable slaughter machine.

As a fighter, Akali can dash around a fight, whittling down opponents rather than deleting them in a battle. She doesn't need to be balanced around being useless 60% of the time because of that 10% of the time where she'll get snowballed and 100-0 entire teams. It feels more fair for both teams than the previous way she was played. I think she can have an identity somwhere in between Shen and Zed gameplay-wise among the ninjas.

On the other hand, Ekko still seems pretty frustrating when he is any good at all... I think it's because no matter how he is played, he feels impossible to escape while also impossible to catch... So if he can kill you, you can't run, but if he can't kill you, you can't catch him. It's kind of the same reason I don't like Riven... And it isn't like you can devote your whole team to dealing with one player, so if you don't have tools to manage on your own, you can feel pretty of screwed especially if they are getting snowballed...

StevoTheCreatorOct 25, 20165 votes

Well... the update pushes akali towards a bruiser anyway... she needs get more auto attacks off and her burst damage got fucking destroyed

ModKnightsKemplarOct 25, 20165 votes

Well, you are making some points that aren't really valid after the update.

Assassins are no longer supposed to have a bunch of frontloaded burst. They are supposed to have a window for opponents to react. Hence Zed's deathmark, Leblanc's new mark, Kata's reworked shunpo and passive damage to her W daggers, etc. Ekko and Akali fit what they want assassins to be now. That may feel more skirmisher to you, but that's how Riot is classifying that style of champion.

Because of those changes, assassins now need a way out of a fight, too. Akali and Ekko are two of the best examples of that already, and Akali's will only get better because of the vision changes.

So, you are indeed describing the class of champions that Akali and Ekko belong to. But Riot calls that an assassin. Some burst, but not all immediate and frontloaded, and a way to disengage after pulling off some maneuver. Those are the new criteria for assassins.

Leon EtoileOct 25, 20161 votes

I don't think assassins should have aoe. You should be giving up that aoe for single target power.

ModKnightsKemplarOct 25, 20162 votes

Then don't play katarina, because she is absolutely towing that line, both with passive and R (old W and R). Some "assassins" (but Riot's qualifications) have both of those things. That's their decision.

Leon EtoileOct 25, 20161 votes

Where do I say I play Kat....

ModKnightsKemplarOct 26, 20162 votes

She's always been considered an assassin, and has mostly AoE. I was making the point that your opinion about assassins is not only not true for the game now, but it pretty much never was. It's fine to have the opinion, but you're in the small minority of players. That isn't what an assassin is this this particular game, nor has it ever been.

ScoroctOct 26, 20162 votes

I just want to thank you for perfectly describing an assassin according to riot's new definition. A slightly delayed source of burst damage with the means to disengage. Comparitively a Diving fighter is tankier, can do good damage if left unchecked, has some utility, and lacks the escape. So many don't realize how important the escape part is in defining what makes an assassin.

ZerenzaOct 25, 20163 votes

Well their intended play style and overall best performance playstyles are as assassins. Ekko got some buffs in about...march of this year along with akali and he went out of control with tank builds, we never had that problem in season 5 when he came out and was pretty damned strong. Right now the tank builds for either of them don't actually warrant using because lo and behold they have bellow 50% winrates with said builds, they suck. People just won't let it die when it honestly isn't good and doesn't work anymore. Assassins that fall behind tend to be skirmisher's after awhile, it's just so they aren't useless in late game and i honestly don't see any problem with it as long as their not building full tank which these champs were for a while but now it sucks so it'll slowly die off.

I QOct 25, 20162 votes

This guy gets it meng

Bladerunner7777Oct 26, 20161 votes

What part of Ekko's ultimate is useful for an assassin (currently)?

If Ekko were an Assassin, that would imply that he could delete a squishy with 3 abililties, then use his ultimate as an escape akin to Zed or Leblanc.

You know what that would mean? That would mean Ekko will be deleting squishies with 3 abilities, and his ult is just an "oops" button.

Almost every single real Assassin in the game relies on their ultimate to kill squishies (unless they're super fed). You create an assassin that isn't tied to that ability to kill something, then you just have a straight up god-tier champion that kills everything.

His ultimate is 3 things: A repositioning tool, a situational damaging burst, and a heal. In order to get MAX EFFICIENCY from your ultimate, you ideally want to be using all of these at the same time. An Assassin simply cannot do this, they don't have the time (4 seconds to be exact).

In order to reposition into a spot that will damage the enemy, you have to be in an extended fight so that your ghost-thing will catch up to you.

Extended fight, as in, Tank/Skirmisher

Fortunately Riot is opting for the killable, Skirmisher route

RG VeleanOct 25, 20162 votes

Well Akali is getting a full VGU soon, and ekko is sitting in a pretty decent spot pre-PBE changes. I really don't see how they're not balancable. They're both pretty feast or famine which is what they're supposed to be.

paisyOct 25, 20162 votes

How do you know she's getting one "soon"?

RG VeleanOct 25, 20162 votes

They mentioned it in the pre-season changes. They said that she wasn't part of the larger changes because she deserves a full VGU and is in line for one soon. So they did the small one to make her a bit healthier

The 14th AngelOct 25, 20161 votes

more like no one is going to play her healthier after this change

Jeddy017Oct 25, 20164 votes

Soon is not accurate, soon™ is more fitting because you know, Riot terms. Eve is in line for a VGU as well, yet she received no gameplay changes during the Assassin update. Why? Because she's likely hit after the Warwick & Galio updates (it's a toss up between her & Urgot ). They didn't bother with changes because her rework is "soon". If I had to guess,Eve's VGU will happen in the 1st half of 2017, if Warwick manages to squeeze this year & they pick her over Urgot.

Akali's VGU is likely still a ways off because Evelynn Urgot Swain Mordekaiser are more likely to get one before her. Then there's other champs in the same spot as her like Chogath Irelia Nunu Pantheon Tryndamere Shaco who could easily be selected over her. She's one of the ChampUP team's high priority target, but not their only one. Her VGU is still a year away at the least, so I wouldn't go around saying "Soon".

MunchCrunchLunchOct 25, 20161 votes

ekko should become an ad champion. akali eh. she has more burst than most assassins. idk how her rework is. but shes def an assassin. like diana. fighter/ assassin but closer to an assassin

I QOct 25, 20167 votes

I cringed at that first "sentence."

aqours fanboyOct 25, 20166 votes

"ekko should become an AD champion"

lmao bye.

Monkey D LuffyOct 25, 20161 votes

akali is so op, yeah ok you miss out level 1-6 but as soon as you hit 6...

The Yetii RiderOct 25, 20161 votes

We don't have any itemization for AP skirmishers, and Riot isn't going to introduce AP assassin items after what happened with other classes stealing AD assassin items.

So Ekko and Akali stay as assassins.

yeIIowbagOct 25, 20161 votes

akali is so annoying to fight, same goes for ekko.

qq.

ChaosThiefOct 25, 20161 votes

Full AP ekko, when ahead, can wipe people of the face of the map. When equal or behind, he has to think carefully about how to hurt his enemies; diving in for the kill instantly will result in ekko dying... horribly. And akali pretty much, when ahead or hitting a power spike (level 6 + gunblade, for example) does nearly the same thing.

I can see why they're picked out as assassins.

AirKingNeoOct 25, 20161 votes

The problem with the current version of Ekko is they finally took away what made tank ekko so broken, (Passive slow and his ult healing % missing HP. Now his passive has no slow, less base damage at later ranks, more at lower ranks, and his ult heals for a flat amount that increases based on % missing HP. (100/150/200 (+60% AP) increased by 2% for every 1% missing HP I believe?) but then forget to undo everything that made Ekko bad in general (or their attemps to prevent him from being played tank).

For example: His base AD nerf. 8 damage off a trinity proc is nothing, this nerf was actually really dumb since 4 AD was huge to his jungling and early game. Most people would rather see a base AD growth lowered to preserve his early game while making his Trinity counterpart have less damage once they get Trinity.

Another problem is his passive's cooldown. Sure, tank ekko abused his passive extremely, but now that it has lost it's passive slow, perhaps we can buff it to improve his laning phase. At the very least, lower it's lockout on jungle monsters to allow Ekko jungle to be viable.

An Unseen RengarOct 26, 20161 votes

Akali has burst, I guess you have not been one shot by an akali lol

Bladerunner7777Oct 26, 20161 votes

I would consider Yasuo a standard hypercarry (offers nothing but tons of damage for his team, that's why he's useless when he feeds) and Fiora a duelist (suited for 1v1s and 1v2s)

But yes, I would definitely consider Ekko a skirmisher (has good CC and damage), but I'm not sure about Akali. She is kind of like a hypercarry mixed with an assassin, in my opinion.

A little PeepoOct 26, 20161 votes

Well that difference between ekko and Akali is that ekko was designed to fight long fights and sustain himself during that time frame. Although people do build Akali as a tank, she generally lacks what ekko or any skirmishes has. She had a limited amount of Rs and tends to deal burst damage, more than ekko tbh. I mean if you play her as a tank I can see how she would be considered as such but even then tankali took some heavy nerfs with the hydra nerfs which makes her a less viable pick than irelia or ekko. Not to mention that her R stacks rely on scoring a kill or assist as quickly as possible, usually skirmishes are designed for longer fights rather than shorter and Akali is the type of champion that kills you in under 2 seconds or gets killed.

Tldr I see her more of a diver rather than skirmisher

NeameanOct 26, 20161 votes

I agree, Akali is definitely a skirmisher or she should be one. However I think Ekko should be more of a diver he is very similar to LeeSin they have potential to be assassin but is till useful going a bit tanky and let their utility carry them.