Hexdrinker needs a serious nerf

magic pole·Feb 19, 2016·140 votes·8,072 views

or a buff to zhonya's.

right now, all an AD mid has to do vs any AP mid is rush hex drinker, and then the 200-300 magic damage shield from this item leaves them unable to be bursted, which is supposed to be a vulnerability for most AD mids....zed, talon, jayce...

meanwhile, the above mentioned champs can often 100-0 squishy AP mids at level 6. We are already forced to rush Zhonya's, which gimps our mana regen, detracts from CDR, and is quite an expensive 1st item.

Zhonya's and/or counter-AD AP carry items need a buff or hex drinker needs to be removed from the game. AD mids can already build to give them counters vs AP. Tone down shield or give us justice and a new anti-AD AP item.

143 Comments

LadyRenlyFeb 19, 201654 votes

The new Maw just makes no sense. Zhonyas doesn't give magic penetration. You are punished for rushing Zhonyas first because you build it so you don't feed to Zed, and as such you lose out on mana regen and CDR, which are very important but ADs can build defensive and get armor pen on top of that to weaken your zhonyas

magic poleFeb 19, 20162 votes

exactly.

I would be fine with hexdrinker/merc's rush which really shuts downs a lot of AP mids, if only zhonyas didnt cost 3500 to pay off...

that's the difference, hex drinker is a huge buff much sooner at 1300g. meanwhile the counter-item to AD , Zhonya's, requires 3500g before it really makes a difference.

TurquoiseYoshiFeb 19, 20169 votes

Riot has, on at least one occasion, called flat armor pen the most misleading stat in the game. And they are 100% correct. Maw gives you a whole 10 flat armor pen. That means that a whopping 10 armor is negated. To give perspective, every fully build flat armor pen item in the game leaves Zhonya's with 5 armor left (plus the champion's base armor). Flat armor pen is actually horrible against anyone with any armor, because the usefulness of it is nearly completely negated at all points (if you rush Youmuu's and get fed it, with 20 flat armor pen, you MIGHT catch up with base armor if the enemy builds no armor and has none from runes/masteries). It's basically just there to try to shred the champions with no bonus armor, like squishies who don't build armor and instead build damage.

SweetiexFeb 19, 201624 votes

{quoted}

Riot has, on at least one occasion, called flat armor pen the most misleading stat in the game. And they are 100% correct. Maw gives you a whole 10 flat armor pen. That means that a whopping 10 armor is negated. To give perspective, every fully build flat armor pen item in the game leaves Zhonya's with 5 armor left (plus the champion's base armor). Flat armor pen is actually horrible against anyone with any armor, because the usefulness of it is nearly completely negated at all points (if you rush Youmuu's and get fed it, with 20 flat armor pen, you MIGHT catch up with base armor if the enemy builds no armor and has none from runes/masteries). It's basically just there to try to shred the champions with no bonus armor, like squishies who don't build armor and instead build damage.

Every single point of flat armor pen correllate with a percentage damage increase against the target. Just because you can't go through their bonus armor with it, doesn't mean you're not doing more damage. in some cases even without going through their bonus armor you're still doing 10%-15% more damage to them, based on how armor actually works.

Dominick DestineFeb 19, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=im in that brush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndlkehlQ,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-19T03:57:58.895+0000)

Every single point of flat armor pen correllate with a percentage damage increase against the target.

Exactly this.

Arguing flat armor pen in isolation is absolute nonsense especially with so much % based armor pen/armor shred that is currently in the game.

VasilisGreenFeb 20, 20161 votes

Your comment was all fine at "Exactly this"... From there on you ruined it...

there are 2 kinds of armor pen from items currently. Flat armor pen and %Bonus armor pen. The way those work are as follows.

Flat armor pen ignores a flat value of the target's armor equal to your flat armor pen and the damage is calculated based on the remaining armor, called Effective armor. This effect is permanent and always applied to all your enemies without you having to attack them. It's effects are calculated to determine the damage you deal to them. Only you benefit from the armor pen.

%Bonus armor pen ignores a % value of your Bonus armor, which is the armor gained from items, buffs, masteries and runes and anything else. If your target does not have any kind of bonus armor then the %Bonus armor pen is literaly useless and a waste of stats. if your target does have bonus armor then you ignore a part of their bonus armor equal to the % value and then the remaining bonus armor with their base armor forms their Effective armor. This effect is permanent against all your enemy targets and it is always calculated before any form of damage is applied. Only you benefit from armor pen.

The other form of offensive stat that affects armor is the armor shred and it is either flat or also %.

The flat armor shred reduces the target's armor by a flat amount equal to your armor shred stat. Your remaining armor is your new total armor value. This effect is temporary and it benefits everyone attacking the same target and only applies to the target you are currently attacking.

The %armor shred reduces your target's armor by a % value equal to your %armor shred. It works on total armor. the new armor value is the remaining total armor value. The effects of armor shred are temporary and only apply to the target you are currently attacking and also every attacker can benefit from the armor shred you apply on that specific target.

Armor shred, flat or %, influences your armor as a stat.

Armor pen only determines your effective armor.

If a champion has both armor pen and armor shred, they affect both your armor and your effective armor.

If a champion has only armor shred then the target's armor is their effective armor

If a champion has no armor shred and no armor pen then the target's armor is also their effective armor

Your effective armor is different from your armor stat only when the attacker has either armor pen in any form or both armor pen and armor shred

Your effective armor is different against different enemies but your armor is the same against all enemies.

The higher your armor is, the higher your effective armor will be

Your effective armor is determined after the attacker's armor pen is applied and can never be below 0

If your Armor is below 0 though, then your Effective armor will be below 0 aswell and the attacker's armor pen stat is wasted.

Your armor can drop below 0 only with armor shred but there is no armor shred strong enough currently to drop you bellow 0 that i know of personaly. If there is, i'd like to know it :D

The order of calculation of armor shred and armor pen is as follows

Armor shred, flat Armor shred, % Bonus armor pen, % Armor pen, % Armor pen, flat.

Since the change to last whisper, the only form of armor pen % is in some champions' abilities such as Darius's E passive, Gankplank's E and other's that i do not remember now.

yoniameFeb 19, 20161 votes

well it means all of your ad spells and basics hit +10 physical non-reducable damage, which along with magic resist and shield and 55 Ad is pretty darn OP

The GovernerFeb 19, 201610 votes

The amount of damage reduced by armor isn't calculated like that...

It's based on a formula, check it out: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Dominick DestineFeb 19, 201632 votes

I tend to agree.

Hexdrinker should have no magic shield passive... that should be reserved for Maw of Malmortius.... why? because Zhonyas has the effect, not Seeker's Armguard.

Lady HammerlockFeb 19, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndlkehlQ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-19T00:30:37.488+0000)

I tend to agree.

Hexdrinker should have no magic shield passive... that should be reserved for Maw of Malmortius.... why? because Zhonyas has the effect, not Seeker's Armguard.

Lets also remember,That for seekers we ACTUALLY HAVE TO STACK IT and the fact that we get no bullshit lifesteal,spell vamp,any kind of pen from item 3157

FusarixFeb 19, 201615 votes

Hexdrinker isn't the only thing that should be looked at. In the current state of the game, ad itemization is way better and way more practical than ap itemization. It shouldn't be easier to get 40% CDR on a marksman than on an ap caster >.>.

Guy Fox TeemoFeb 19, 201614 votes

Yes it should because 40% CDR on a AP caster is A LOT more powerful then that of an ADC, you can't give that super good itemization to Mages or less they become huge power houses. (Don't try to compare CRIT on Adc's to CDR on Mages, the power lvl is different and requires more items, plus the RNG of crit, etc.)

taleofsonataFeb 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hexdrinker isn't the only thing that should be looked at. In the current state of the game, ad itemization is way better and way more practical than ap itemization. It shouldn't be easier to get 40% CDR on a marksman than on an ap caster >.>.

You actually need 1 item to get 45% CDR on a marksman, item 3508

FalconPawwwwnchFeb 19, 201614 votes

Lol this mage circlejerk is so disgusting

Maw is finally a viable item after years and you want it nerfed already

KnoyleFeb 19, 201615 votes

I don't care to see it nerfed. I just want an item for mages that's on par with it.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 19, 20166 votes

item 3157

KnoyleFeb 19, 201611 votes

Is in no way equivalent to Maw. Like at all. Zhonyas is heavily situational and activated manually. Maw is automatic and it's build up to item already gets the shield. Zhonya's specific build up to item does not. And then there's the price difference.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 19, 20166 votes

Zhonyas can block CC & a vast of amount of damage when well used, it takes more skill and understanding than maw does in a sense, but it's stronger in good hands because it be used to deny ult dmgs, or vital CC by the enemy.

it's build up to item already gets the shield.

Getting Zhonya's active early would be the most broke thing ever, seekers gets extra armor/AP in exchange.

And then there's the price difference.

250 g wow, not huge.

KnoyleFeb 19, 20167 votes

The only reason you build Maw is for the shield. The only reason you build Zhonya's is for the Stasis. You get a shield faster than you get stasis because. item 3155 is WAY cheaper than item 3157 . And what you said about Zhonya's taking more skill and understanding is the point I am trying to make. There is a lot of room for error in using Zhonya's that is likely to get you killed if used wrong. However, Hexdrinker and Maw aren't like that. They can be better in more situations. Say you are getting chased down by Lucian and you are just out of reach of your base. Zhonya's is not going to save you but summoner 21 can because it adds more room for damage while still allowing you to run. Zhonya's just gives your pursuer time to catch up. Same thing applies with Maw if you are being gunned down by Fizz . These items are not on the same par.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 19, 201610 votes

"AP mids are terrible even though they're still vastly favored in high ELO and competitive play"

Serious mages players are so delusion just cause anything has a chance against them, yet mages still have the top 5 win rates & play rates for mid lane.

Diamond FrostmanFeb 19, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndlkehlQ,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-02-19T05:22:02.222+0000)

"AP mids are terrible even though they're still vastly favored in high ELO and competitive play"

Serious mages players are so delusion just cause anything has a chance against them, yet mages still have the top 5 win rates & play rates for mid lane.

Oh the win rates of Viktor , the last good REAL mage. Ahri doesn't count because she is too mobile to be considered an actual mage, she's kind Riot's assassin-mage hybrid lovechild and like Lee Sin, they will never let anything back happen to her. Same with Leblanc , both are two mobile to be considered "mages". Lissandra WAS good but is only really good as a counter-pick to Zed and SERIOUSLY lacks damage compared to other AD based CC heavy champs.

True mages

Syndra Heimerdinger Karma Xerath Velkoz

All forgotten about completely. Yes, they can still work but why pick them when AD Assassins, Bruisers and ADC's ARE JUST PLAIN BETTER in ITEMS and KITS.

Does AP Kayle match a Fiora ? Didn't think so.

You can see this in LCS, do mages get picked for mid often OTHER then Viktor...

No!

Its all Corki and Ezreal .

Hell, we have Graves in the jungle now.

Just about EVERY ADC is viable and actually better at the moment because they simply OUTCLASS mages. Ezreal, Corkie and Graves are ALL CAPABLE OF MUCH HIGHER BURST. Kallista and Lucian have much better safety and peel and the less said about Miss Fortune, the better.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 19, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Diamond Frostman,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndlkehlQ,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-02-19T06:19:46.405+0000)

Oh the win rates of , the last good REAL mage. doesn't count because she is too mobile to be considered an actual mage, she's kind Riot's assassin-mage hybrid lovechild and like Lee Sin, they will never let anything back happen to her. Same with , both are two mobile to be considered "mages". WAS good but is only really good as a counter-pick to Zed and SERIOUSLY lacks damage compared to other AD based CC heavy champs.

True mages

Like

All forgotten about completely. Yes, they can still work but why pick them when AD Assassins, Bruisers and ADC's ARE JUST PLAIN BETTER in ITEMS and KITS.

Does AP match a ? Didn't think so.

You can see this in LCS, do mages get picked for mid often OTHER then Viktor...

No!

Its all and .

Hell, we have in the jungle now.

Just about EVERY ADC is viable and actually better at the moment because they simply OUTCLASS mages. Ezreal, Corkie and Graves are ALL CAPABLE OF MUCH HIGHER BURST. Kallista and Lucian have much better safety and peel and the less said about Miss Fortune, the better.

Oh you mean these ones? Lulu 80% pick/ban, 80% win rate in competitive Lux The best solo queue mid laner in the game Lissandra 50% pick/ban, 70% win rate in competitive Zilean Now picking up steam in competitive as people discover how retarded he is Anivia Ryze nerfed into the ground for good reason

And then on the flip side, for the unstoppable tide of AD assassins mid in competitive play we have: Huh. No one, actually. Turns out Zed and Talon are only good in solo queue, and Corki is just a broken piece of shit everywhere

Also, please list me a single "AD based CC heavy champion" currently being played, as I am exceptionally curious if both of us are playing League of Legends at this point

MrWasjigFeb 19, 20162 votes

Oh you mean these ones? 80% pick/ban, 80% win rate in competitive The best solo queue mid laner in the game 50% pick/ban, 70% win rate in competitive Now picking up steam in competitive as people discover how retarded he is

Wanna know why this lot are picked so much right now? Because they're safe in both pro-play and in SoloQ. Safety is more valuable than ever right now as nobody is willing to take as many risks as before, given the horribly punishing death timers.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Wanna know why this lot are picked so much right now? Because they're safe in both pro-play and in SoloQ. Safety is more valuable than ever right now as nobody is willing to take as many risks as before, given the horribly punishing death timers.

Which doesn't change the fact that "true mages" are still high priority picks, much to the whinging of the entire board

Serika ZeroFeb 19, 20162 votes

"competitive" = NA LCS only??? should I remind you that your "competitive" teams went 0/10 in the second week at worlds and not even 1 got out of groups?

if you use the term "competitive" why don't you add all of the "competitive" scenes together? Which means Na+Kr+Eu+China+LMS. Then do win rate, ban pick rate and so on.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndlkehlQ,comment-id=000a000000000002,timestamp=2016-02-19T13:38:27.268+0000)

"competitive" = NA LCS only??? should I remind you that your "competitive" teams went 0/10 in the second week at worlds and not even 1 got out of groups?

if you use the term "competitive" why don't you add all of the "competitive" scenes together? Which means Na+Kr+Eu+China+LMS. Then do win rate, ban pick rate and so on.

It's the same in every region, Zed is barely picked, Talon isn't picked, Lulu Lissandra are high priorities and Lulu wins every game

That doesn't mean Zed doesn't need a nerf, but everyone really needs to tone down the "AP oppression" complex they've got going. If Maw was that unstoppable Lux and Ahri wouldn't be the best solo queue mid laners in the game

DunkinNoobsFeb 19, 20166 votes

You guys know that Hexdrinker is worse now than it was before preseason right? 5 less AD, 5 less MR, and the shield now scales from 110 to 280 based on level instead of 250 at all levels. It's strictly a far worse rush item than it was before. Now, if you want to have a discussion about Maw, then that's an entirely different thing. But Hexdrinker itself? Significantly weaker.

Lady HammerlockFeb 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You guys know that Hexdrinker is worse now than it was before preseason right? 5 less AD, 5 less MR, and the shield now scales from 110 to 280 based on level instead of 250 at all levels. It's strictly a far worse rush item than it was before. Now, if you want to have a discussion about Maw, then that's an entirely different thing. But Hexdrinker itself? Significantly weaker.

Wait the price had to be reduced to..

DunkinNoobsFeb 19, 20163 votes

The cost was lowered by 150, but the item lost far more than 150 gold in stats. 5 AD is 175 gold, 5 MR is 90 gold, and the shield is also weaker until late game and significantly weaker early.

MyozthirirnFeb 19, 20163 votes

The cost was lowered by 150g At the same time the price of all items was increased by 100~400g

DunkinNoobsFeb 19, 20165 votes

What's your point? Based on raw gold efficiency, the item is significantly worse than before. Yes, it costs 150 less. It also lost far more than than 150 gold in stats, around 400 gold worth if you rush Hexdrinker.

VekknaFeb 19, 20163 votes

Meanwhile Seeker's was nerfed without a cost reduction and Zhonya's was increased by like 550g.

WadeWilson1337Feb 19, 20163 votes

[deleted]

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 19, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Compare to and you will see the competence of the Riot balance department.

item 3155 500g combine cost, 1300g total. 102% efficient, except during the 5 second active during which it is 159% efficient, with a 90 second cooldown

item 3191 165g combine cost, 1200g total. 102% efficient after 12 CS, stacking up to 138% efficiency if farmed for a total of 2.5 minutes

Looks fine to me

WadeWilson1337Feb 19, 20164 votes

Lets play spot the AD assassin main

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 20, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Lets play spot the AD assassin main

https://i.imgur.com/1nzwLxu.png[/img]

You caught me

Naag OneFeb 19, 20163 votes

Zed.... only 1 champ you need to make every bronzie mage main cry

Diamond FrostmanFeb 19, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Naag One,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ndlkehlQ,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2016-02-19T10:53:02.029+0000)

Zed.... only 1 champ you need to make every bronzie mage main cry

You sir... are a... not going to say it here.

Everything that is wrong with League of Legends in a nutshell - THAT ATTITUDE

Naag OneFeb 19, 20164 votes

its true Zed is the only reason for all the tears

see when you're against Zed, every immobile mage becomes a practice dummy bag. they lose every long range poke, cc, safe farming, jungler, everything. Zed's abilities auto locked, has no cooldowns and no cost too.

also, when does an AD mid rush hexdrinker over yommu? when they're ahead or have died and are behind in cs?

Serika ZeroFeb 19, 20163 votes

they rush it when they want the enemy laner to do 0 dmg to them with all that "long range poke cc safe farming'

BRBGTGBOWFLEXFeb 19, 20163 votes

Nah, hex is fine, but seekers needs to suck less.

Kuroi86Feb 20, 20163 votes

all an AD mid has to do vs any AP mid is rush hex drinker, and then the 200-300 magic damage shield

item 3155 LIFELINE: Upon taking magic damage that would reduce maximum health below 30%, grants a shield that absorbs 110 - 280 (based on level) magic damage for 5 seconds. (90 second cooldown)

You're thinking item 3156 , you should be more clearly defined about these things, otherwise you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.

meanwhile, the above mentioned champs can often 100-0 squishy AP mids at level 6.

How fed are we talking? Because unless you've at least a two level lead and a full item on said squishy, you can't 100-0 them in one rotation.

That said, AD and AP itemization are off kilter in terms of balance. When Riot did the AD pass over on items they added a lot of power into the items, for a small AD reduction, AD champs now have a myriad of passives that can more than make up for the lowered AD.

Personally I expect we'll see an AP item pass over when the mage update hits. Whether it's just giving them some small buffs in stats or working on the passives to make them compete better, we'll see.

In the mean time, if you don't main an AP champ, you're not going to have a fun time. The changes don't seem to effect mage mains that much, but if you don't main said champ, then you're going to feel the difference.

MannysmokerFeb 19, 20162 votes

So ppl forgets item 3191 is a thing, so you get early resistances vs AD champs in lane so is item 3155 vs AP champs in lane.....

Serika ZeroFeb 19, 20164 votes

Hexdrinker: 20 AD, 35 MR, +110-280 hp

Armguard: 20 AP, 30 Armor, +15 armor after farming for 30 more creeps (which is 2 minutes and a half with perfect CS).

Why is Hexdrinker such a pain in the ass? Because the AD champions get instant benefits from it. While mages have to farm for like 3 more minutes under the pressured of being all-ined by the AD champion while they can't burst back, to even get relatively close to Hexdrinker.

Hence why, I prefer item 3075 over item 3157 +55 armor +magic damage back on the enemy, cheaper (2350 vs 3500)

MannysmokerFeb 19, 20161 votes

Well, that's the difference between AP and AD, or what you want to hinder the ability of Zed Talon Khazix Rengar to pressure you just because you got item 3191 and you need to stack it...that's how the game works, Mages have by far more advantages than Other types in the game....

Serika ZeroFeb 19, 20162 votes

Why should Zed be allowed to burst someone down asap while Annie can't? That stupid shield adds a lot of NO, FUCK YOU. To all burst early game AP heroes (burst mages and assassins). While we got NOTHING against early burst AD heroes.

Hexdrinker gives all starts from the get go. We have to farm, we must "facetank" 2 Zed ults before our item is just as effective as the Hexdrinker they bought.

dunkeroniFeb 19, 20162 votes

Clearly we just need a new champion that scales differently. Riot is already making champs like Jhin who use stats in completely the wrong way...

Perhaps we need an AP Tank that does damage based on Armor and has a hard engage for teamfights and good AP scaling. Oh wait... Malphite

Okay, scratch that. We need someone who instead of having to rush zhonyas to block the enemy level 6, this champ could come with a built-in zhonyas to the kit as an ult! It would be great if it could also have like a warp/dash/teleport thing that also did damage to counter all the jumpy AD assassins. Then we wouldn't have to put so much money into- Hang on, nevermind... Lissandra

Let's look at this from a different direction. Instead of worrying about actual counterplay, let's just get Riot to introduce bullshit for us so that we never have to pay for our mistakes. If someone ults us, we should just be able to go back in time and get our health back instead of dying, and maybe we'll even move back to where we were before. It could even do damage in case it was helpful! Umm... Ekko

I'm out of ideas. "NERF HEXDRINKER!!!"

ElindisFeb 19, 20162 votes

Oh noes, an item does something it's supposed to do. What if we added an item that gives physical damage defenses and AP? An alternative to Zhonya's with more armor and less AP, that won't do a thing against magical damage.

Something like: Prismatic Shroud 80 AP 80 Armor After taking more than 30% of your health as PHYSICAL damage in last 3 seconds, get immune to any further PHYSICAL damage for 2 seconds. Cooldown 90/120 seconds.

Left Hook LarryFeb 19, 20162 votes

right now, all an AD mid has to do vs any AP mid is rush hex drinker, and then the 200-300 magic damage shield from this item leaves them unable to be bursted

And against AD mids like Zed all u need is a Zhonyas and they become useless. Same concept