What do "OP" champions have in common?

magic pole·Sep 24, 2015·55 votes·4,684 views

all these champions everyone likes to complain about so much seem to share a trait.

As long as they are not ridiculously behind, they will wreck you 1v1. If slightly ahead or fed, they can often 1v2 or 1v3 and still come out with a kill. If you team trickles in 1 by 1 and does not peel for each other, use their CC to lock down and then focus these duelists, they will wreck you.

Their weakness you ask? Team coordination. If 2-3+ players work together most of these champions are easily shut down.

The reason they are so widely perceived as overpowered is because most people are playing solo-queue, where teamwork and coordination is often nonexistent. Too many people would rather try to "carry" than sacrifice here or there for the benefit of the team.

Just some thoughts...

131 Comments

The Sword SaintSep 24, 201544 votes

Also because it's a common point of confusion in low elo that the job of every champion who is not a full tank like leona is to 1v1 people, and therefore any champs who are inherently better at dueling are considered 'op' because dueling power is the only thing they are using to compare balance states.

Kat shouldn't be on your list though, she sucks 1v1 unless way ahead on items and levels and is far more of a teamfighting assassin then most.

magic poleSep 24, 201516 votes

yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to get across.

good point about Kat though, I guess I put her there because she seems to punish lack of teamwork more so than almost any other champion in the game. agreed though her 1v1 isn't very good unless she's fed

Photos of GhostsSep 24, 20152 votes

Kat punishes lack of instant point and click hard CC because she can potentially kill and Shunpo 3 time during the travel time of a Nautilus ult.

doombotMECHASep 24, 20154 votes

"potentially" kat is really snowball reliant. even kass q'ing her during her first ult in a tf can get her killed is she already shunpo'ed

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 24, 20154 votes

people is solo have trouble with kat mainly because they overstay with 1/3 and she gets a reset cleanup

disregardableSep 24, 201516 votes

If 2-3+ players work together most of these champions are easily shut down.

Leblanc ????

magic poleSep 24, 20155 votes

meh, she really isn't all that different than she was a few months ago. Her W and E are slightly harder to use, but her damage and 1v1 / pick potential hasn't changed much at all.

she's just fallen out of f(l)avor is all

Diananmen SquareSep 24, 20157 votes

She is returning to the meta slowly.

Hide yourself.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 24, 20156 votes

She's an extreme assassin. If you force an organized teamfight on her, watch her literally be able to do nothing until either she's dead or the fight is completely disarrayed.

ninjaIRL Sep 25, 20151 votes

Nah. She'll just kite people with snare and Q.

fractalfantasiesSep 24, 20159 votes

I expected this thread to be part of the anti-mobility circlejerk, but OP is totally right.

Lots of guides recommend these champs to carry soloque even if they are not always the strongest in LCS because of how much they punish poor coordination.

FistOfSharkieshaSep 24, 20158 votes

2 of those champions have invulnerability, one of them makes another champion invulnerable (kalista), 2 of them have very powerful stealth, 4 have true damage, and one has the biggest heal in the game available on a tank. Leblanc and Riven are easy to handle. The others can do major plays before being killed.

I mean I kind of agree with you, coordination and focusing the right targets helps, but you can't focus a Shyvana or Darius and expect to win the teamfight when it takes 3 seconds of your entire team attacking them to finally kill them. You can't focus Vayne without her stealthing away and returning to clean up unless you have a very specific mage or assassin that can unload their entire kit onto her while she's rooted or stunned.

CipseSep 24, 20152 votes

By the way, I would say that there are three champions that can go untargetable; Fizz (of course), Fiora (W) and Yi (Q).

Although Yi's Q doesn't last very long it still allows people who have fast reactions/watch cast animations and good timing to dodge important hostile crowd control.

xNitoriSep 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

By the way, I would say that there are three champions that can go untargetable; Fizz (of course), Fiora (W) and Yi (Q).

Although Yi's Q doesn't last very long it still allows people who have fast reactions/watch cast animations and good timing to dodge important hostile crowd control.

Fiora's W is a skillshot.. your timing has to be on-point or else it is useless.

VentiraSep 24, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Fiora's W is a skillshot.. your timing has to be on-point or else it is useless.

I once parried a vladimir ultimate. That vlad was SO pissed.

Hyrum GraffSep 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I once parried a vladimir ultimate. That vlad was SO pissed.

Sivir I once spell-shielded the initial cast of a zed ult. It was glorious.

Kitten of EvilSep 25, 20151 votes

Your timing might have to be on point (though 0.75 seconds is a big window)... but your aim doesn't. It parries things from any direction (or from no direction -- Karth ult, for example), which doesn't make much sense.

CoolKnightSTSep 24, 20156 votes

Teamwork is indeed non existance in solo Q:

Play 1: does a 5 man ult, yasuo has his ult up. He didn't use it
Play 2: does a 4 man ult, yasuo has his ult up. He didn't use it
Play 4: does a 5 man ult, yasuo has his ult up. He didn't use it
Play 5: does a 5 man ult, yasuo has his ult up. He finaly used it, but since it was a 4v5 combined with the gold disadvantage from the previous fight. whe also lost that fight.
Play 6: Yasuo goes AFK telling the team is noob

TurquoiseYoshiSep 24, 20152 votes

Play 6 was a Faker-level outplay. That was great how he sneaked up on the fountain by dying, and then pressing the Leave Game button for the ultimate punish.

Only Play DariusSep 25, 20151 votes

Maybe Yasuo intentionally doesn't ult that because he's 0/4, his team is losing, and he would rather farm up and try to hit his next powerspike before he teleports his glass self into the middle of the enemy team?

I have been reported for not ulting 3/4 man Malphite knockups because I was 0/2 (while my opponent midlaner is 5/1 because he roamed). All I wanted to do was farm minions so I can actually do damage in fights (Yas is incredibly item reliant) and Malphite starts camping my lane and taking CS after top tower falls (just like every other bronze toplaner) because he refuses to ward. He lands a 3 man knockup on a team that is 12 kills ahead of us and expects me to flash right into the middle of them? What would be the purpose of that? Do zero damage, die instantly on landing, and give them yet another free kill?

DivewingSep 25, 20152 votes

TOTALLY AGREE. Sometimes i feel people forget Yas needs minimum 2 items (1 is very expensive) to deal relevant damage, and another (also very expensive) to deal good damage, then sit there flaming you: WHY DIDNT YOU ULT??!?! almost like they expect you to magically fart out damage

CoolKnightSTSep 25, 20152 votes

That wasn't the case since he was 4-2-7 & he already had 2 of his core items (static & trinity force). Their was no excuse why he shouldn't be ulting their. Every time I ulted was when it was 5v5, exept for the last play because our kassadin died by facechecking.

SquidsmastahSep 24, 20152 votes

Can someone tell me how Shyvana is OP?

FistOfSharkieshaSep 24, 201515 votes

Her core items and several of her abilities use sated devourer incredibly well. She probably gets the most use out of it from any champion in the game. You can build Bork + devourer on her and then go full tank and do crazy damage while still being tanky as fuck.

AbrahamBaconhamSep 24, 20151 votes

Seems it'd be easy enough to deal with her then. Counterjungle and focus her early before she has time to stack/get tanky.

FistOfSharkieshaSep 24, 201513 votes

Lol? This is Shyvana we are talking. Her early dueling and clear speed puts her miles ahead of any enemy jungler.

T RexHasTinyArmsSep 24, 20151 votes

The problem is, what do you counter jungle shyvanna with? Other than perhaps nunu and lee sin maybe I can't think of a champ that defines counter jungling more than shyvanna. The only times she has been highly prized in the jungle before were during metas that encouraged counter jungling. Go watch replays of season 2 worlds and you'll see a whole lot of commentary on why shyvanna is picked to counter jungle. It's 3 seasons later and it's still all true. If you counter jungle her and she's any good she'll just swap thefts with you and in the time it takes most junglers to steal her raptors she will clear their raptors and krugs.

Explosive PuppetSep 24, 20151 votes

Shaco decieves behind you

T RexHasTinyArmsSep 24, 20151 votes

Shyvana Burnout and runs away. I mean yeah shaco does that annoying constantly in your jungle shit, but shy is just so fast you can run away from it and power farm the camps on the other side where he can't catch up. Ideally you start a buff then go to the other side, bc 90% of shacos in lower elo (where I play w/ them) will try and kill you at the first buff after they do theirs and jump into your jungle. Just take the buff and go farm your other side. If you're being really evil you ward your buff and if he does come to kill you at it while you're on the other side you steal his second buff instead of taking your second buff.

Although the number of times I forget to do that vs shaco is embarrassing so maybe I shouldn't talk. Fuck krugs man, the are a trap that gets you killed at red buff by a stupid laughing clown ;D

Rundus1Sep 24, 20151 votes

Simply because people expect that of him I've gotten rather fond of doing my first buff as Shaco and immediately ganking mid if my mid laner is one with good early power. I'll usually kill or burn flash then I just head to my jungle and clear my other half before ganking top or reganking mid who now has no flash. Against a shyv I know I can't just blindly go in so I have my asc ward their bot buff and my top ward their top and act accordingly. I'll see where the enemies ward if they react at all and behave accordingly, often killing my bottom buff with boxes and rigging a 2+box trap for shyv at her bottom buff and asking mid to ward the river between the top jungles. If she goes for my 2nd buff, I clear her bot jungle and get to gankin. Lots of stuff to consider, but that 1st buff invade never really works for me vs shyv unless she is oblivious to what shaco can do and uses burnout on her bot buff immediately so she can't run away.

ChessburgerSep 24, 20151 votes

I prefer not to do cheesy shit with Shaco because any player worth his salt expects it and it'll just put you way too behind when it fails (which it will, I do it to every shaco I come across that tries). So rather I just keep them wondering and on edge and play him like you would play any other ganking jungler - opportunistically.

And on the note of Shaco countering Shyvanna - the person who suggested it has no idea of the matchup. Shaco's only chance is if she's surprised (and of course she'll expect it so scratch the surprise) or if she's not careful, which would imply her dropping below 1/3 hp for shaco to realistically have a chance at killing her. The problem is shaco can't counter jungle well simply because he's really bad at farming compared to your typical counterjunglers. The whole point of Shaco as a champion is the element of surprise and careful use of premediated tactics and enemy prediction to gain an edge. A shaco that is not fed will rarely be able to one up any decent champion/player when they have everything available.

On that note I'd like to end with this rather absurd statement: Shaco's a bad counter-jungler. He's good at setting things up, abusing mistakes by being the way he is but in order to be a good counter jungler you need to be able to farm camps fast and efficiently. Something true counter-junglers like nunu and shyvanna do very well.

Peace.

Rundus1Sep 25, 20151 votes

I fully agree with every word you said except the word "bad". A behind Shaco is pretty bad, i'll admit, but even he can usually capitalize on something. Anyways, my point: Shaco doesn't require an early invade, and actually farms pretty decently if he chooses to ignore lanes, he just isn't as good if he isn't snowballing. The reason I do cheeky stuff is because of the rewards for taking the risk. With Shyv, if everything aligns and I invade, I'm almost undoubtedly getting her buff and if she's there it's flash too unless her team sets up a trap without any of the early wards seeing any of it (unlikely). If shyv isn't there, I still get the buff and start ganking between camps. However, if i ever kill Shyv early, I can just continually camp mid and alternate where I mess with the shyv. For instance, if I get Shyv's flash at her 1st buff and get the buff, I just clear it, and gank mid (where I've had my mid playing passively so the wave isn't pushed and the enemy has to walk up to farm), then go straight to shyv's other buff and get that one too, as I prefer to get their raptors if she didn't go straight there and then get her from behind, allowing me to safely wait until the opportune moment. I may even be able to kill her if she decides to fight me after I take it. Shaco stays pretty healthy doing all of this except for the gank, which has potential to hurt. If it does, I just recall and head top jg to top and maintain control of her 1st buff. Once I get tiamat (I personally upgrade smite and rush tiamat) I can clear really fast and burst decently. If I get 2 kills by the time I get tiamat I'm golden. Shyv won't be able to farm very well (I like to keep warded and punish such attempts on devourer shyv) and ganks get fun. This is all conditional, but that's my big point. If Shaco is good enough to get the desired condition, and he knows what to do with it, he can shut out the enemy jungler or a lane or multiple enemies if he can get going. If he can get an early lead, he's a superb counter-jungler that's hard to catch out and easy to get ambushed by. As a Shaco sub-main (he's one of my top 3) I felt the need to justify him.

T RexHasTinyArmsSep 25, 20151 votes

I think he means that shaco invades but doesn't counter jungle. It's a weird distinction but it used to be way more prevalent (not sure how long you've played the game). Udyr is the best example ever. Tiger stance has crazy 1v1 strength depending on if Udyr is in a good spot or not, so when tiger udyr goes in the enemy jungle it is to kill the enemy jungle more than to take their camps. Phoenix Udyr clears super fast, so he wants to go in and take all your farm rather than straight up fight you.

Down the line they do both, for instance if shaco kills someone a few times they get behind and he gets ahead so he clears camps faster w/ the farmed items, and isn't worried about them catching him if he's slow bc he'll just kill them again. Nunu is all about stealing camps rather than fighting, bu I somehow ended up 7-1-2 on Nunu recently in the early game and was stealing camps w/ much less focus on avoiding the enemy and taking their farm bc I could actually fight most champs in the game 1v1 w/ red buff (which is a stupidly ahead Nunu).

ChessburgerSep 25, 20151 votes

Yeah I meant invading I guess, didn't know the word for it that's why I said "ganking jungler" which implied 'ganking' the enemy jungler as well not just the lanes.

Been playing the game on and off since 2010 so I've seen a lot of changes go by but I've only recently starting to notice people referring to Shaco as THE counter-jungler, whereas back in the day the counter-junglers were nunu, udyr and later shyvanna when diamondprox started dominating with her.

T RexHasTinyArmsSep 25, 20151 votes

man, back in the day I remember Dr Mundo being really popular as and early game counter jungle champ. take smite exhaust and invade their second buff, get the kill and then still had enough HP to take the buff bc he clears fast. I miss Mundo jungle, so hard to do now w/out spell vamp quints; stupid jungle hurts so much on first clear.

T RexHasTinyArmsSep 25, 20151 votes

He's a bad counter jungler, good invader. Nunu has to run away instead of fight you, but he'll take your camp before he does it. Shaco may not take your camp bc your lanes will collapse by the time he does, but he can chunk or kill a jungle that doesn't do well early game. I hate shaco so much as Amumu.

ChessburgerSep 25, 20151 votes

Yeah amumu is the worst against him, he can literally do nothing but play the game of cat and mouse where he's the mouse.

Joe DreddSep 24, 20152 votes

As long as they are not ridiculously behind, they will wreck you 1v1.

malzahar where

ninjaIRL Sep 24, 20151 votes

He can't 1v2 though.

The moment you bring a support (or anyone with hard CC/silence) with you he loses his kill potential. This provided that your team hasn't been 1v1ing him and feeding him the whole game. Malzahar will delete multiple squishies at the same time if he's fed though.

Photos of GhostsSep 24, 20155 votes

But he can 2v5. Malzahar Morgana item 3151 and you're ready to siege 5 people.

Joe DreddSep 24, 20151 votes

The same can be applied to every other person on that list

ninjaIRL Sep 24, 20151 votes

No. Riven has AoE CC which lets her focus the squishier one in 1v3s or 1v2s. Yasuo has AoE CC and mobility to dodge retaliation in 1v2s and 1v3s. Darius has his OP heal in 1v3s. Fizz has his pole and ultimate to keep people off of him if he wants to dive into a 1v2. Fiora has Q mobility and enough damage that all she needs to do is proc her ult and win the 1v2. Kalista has passive and ability to damage people with Rend to kite. Vayne is pretty much the same deal with passive and ultimate and tumble and self peel. etc.

Malzahar can't 1v2 or 1v3 unless the opponents are literally standing in his Q every fight. Assuming that his opponents aren't completely stupid he really can't.

Joe DreddSep 25, 20151 votes

This is so biased that I'm just gonna let you live with yourself.

ninjaIRL Sep 25, 20153 votes

Thank you for elaborating your arguments there. I've really learnt something about this entire detailed and mutual discussion.

Sypher The PoroSep 24, 20151 votes

Reading through this entire thread I'm silently laughing over the fact no one has pointed out one of the reasons Riven is so frustrating is the fact she can block 500 - 600 damage with her shield every 3.6 seconds.

Mr Broken WingsSep 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Reading through this entire thread I'm silently laughing over the fact no one has pointed out one of the reasons is so frustrating is the fact she can block 500 - 600 damage with her shield every 3.6 seconds.

With 40 % cdr, and the shield doesnt hold long enough to take a trade if the enemy is not dumb. Also she has no sustain till she finishes hydra ( a good riven wont finish that item early btw). Her shield is pretty damn weak at the moment in lane, its frustrating because people cant wait 1 second ( activly missplaying, just kite her in the duration) before trading and ignoring her shield in trades, thats all. After personal experience in that matchup 99% of the rivens use the e wrong and get completly wrecked by me in lane.