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@Meddler : Ardent Censer's stacking heal % complaints - Might I suggest a solution?

Deep Terror Nami··12 votes·8,256 views

The current issue people are having with Ardent Censer is that the % heal/shield bonus it and Mikael's is not unique, and it is additive rather than multiplicative. Supposedly this is because you want people to buy both Ardent Censer and Mikael's Crucible without a loss in efficiency. However, what really happens is that they just stack 5 Censers and a Deathcap or something like that. I have not done the math but apparently it's too much.

  • Problem - Ardent Censer stacking is OP!
  • Solution - Make Ardent Censer's +60 AP Unique!

Why does making Censer's AP unique help? Because then you only get +15% Heal/Shield Power, +10% CDR, and +50% Mana Regen for 2400g, not only making it lose a lot of individual efficiency, but the less AP you have the worse off your base heal/shield is so the % isn't working with nearly as much.

Is it a good idea? Who the fuck knows? I didn't do the math on this, either! Get the hell out of the Gameplay board, DTN!

https://i.gyazo.com/11cc575279f390dc3be71c361979ff53.gif

38 Comments

RiotMeddler19 votes

We're not convinced yet that Ardent Censor stacking is a problem. It certainly could be, given you get up to some really large heal/shield values. Requires both a pretty squishy build and quite a lot of gold to get there though, so for now at least we're just monitoring how it goes. Have seen a number of non supports using Ardent Censor for the self healing boost, haven't seen anything yet that seems clearly out of line though (some really effective games with it, but that happens with other builds too of course, sometimes players do well).

KONO RUBICK DA3 votes

i'm extremely happy that for once, you thought "what if it isn't a problem" before rushing the hot fixes.

{quoted}

. Requires both a pretty squishy build and quite a lot of gold to get there though,

True, but it might still be a problem because a lot of supports have tons of range, which makes them safe, sona's heal has 1000 range for example.

Duke Anax1 votes

item 3069 item 3047 item 2045 item 3504 item 3222 item 3065

only two idols though.

ACENOX1 votes

you won't get a 1200 hp shield on janna with this.

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

We're not convinced yet that Ardent Censor stacking is a problem. It certainly could be, given you get up to some really large heal/shield values. Requires both a pretty squishy build and quite a lot of gold to get there though, so for now at least we're just monitoring how it goes. Have seen a number of non supports using Ardent Censor for the self healing boost, haven't seen anything yet that seems clearly out of line though (some really effective games with it, but that happens with other builds too of course, sometimes players do well).

Dirty Soraka main here. When I played using only Heal and Clarity last year, I stacked AP only on my Soraka. The best healing I achieved was like... 700 per W. I can definitely say 3 ardents + a big ap item beats that by 100 hp. However doing that gives up raw power with my Q and E so it feels balanced.

Rengooo1 votes

Don't know what its like on summoners but I have played some hexakill this weekend gone by and its absolutely breaking it, Janna shielding anyone for half their health.. I know you don't balance around game modes but gezus it feels filthy to play against..

LadyRenly1 votes

{quoted}

We're not convinced yet that Ardent Censor stacking is a problem. It certainly could be, given you get up to some really large heal/shield values. Requires both a pretty squishy build and quite a lot of gold to get there though, so for now at least we're just monitoring how it goes. Have seen a number of non supports using Ardent Censor for the self healing boost, haven't seen anything yet that seems clearly out of line though (some really effective games with it, but that happens with other builds too of course, sometimes players do well).

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks for not instantly jumping the gun here. I thought of 5 ardent censers as a joke, but it could be a fun little troll build to try in norms, thanks for not instantly gutting it. Sure, it may give good heals but you are squishy as heck

dunkeroni1 votes

Remember that the heal boosts from ardent are additive, not multiplicative. For instance, having five gives 15%*5 = +75%, not 1.15^5 = +101%

Also note that you give up a lot of tank and AP potential with that many. I would suggest trying just an Ardent and Mikaels, and then stacking AP or whatever else your champion's heal scales on.

dunkeroni1 votes

This, a thousand times this. I finally feel like Soraka makes a difference again if you're careful; something she lost in her multitude of changes over the last few seasons. Having her itemization empower her heals late game makes a much smoother progression for her build path without having oppressive base values ruin everything.

AWildAPKalista1 votes

Considering that before the buffs to Ardent Censer, it was a noob-trap item that could potentially lose your team the game for sinking your gold into it instead of a real item like say, Harbinger... Players are probably just not used to Ardent Censer actually having a usable effect for the first time in the item's history, other than the 2 or 3 days people used it for buffed minions with Alistar.

Personally, I didn't even realize it was keeping the useless-as-shit Unique Passive and I had to re-read it thrice over in the shop until I figured out the Windspeaker's Passive was a non-unique effect listed as Stat Points.

nananananacat5 votes

OK, so with Natural Talent, full scaling AP runepage, and windspeakers blessing with 4 Ardent Censers, Swifties and a Rabadon's, on lvl 18 full build Soraka.

You would have 618.57 AP, +60% healing from additive Ardent, which would stack multiplitively with Windspeakers, another 10% heal increase.

Soraka heal ratio at max level is 200 (+ 60% AP). (200 + .6) * 1.6 =

320 + .96 AP

(320 + .96 AP) * 1.1 = 352 + 1.056 AP

352 + 1.056 AP = 1005.20992

1005 HP per W heal, which you will have 45% CDR for, so 1k heal every 1.1 second. Now if the person has runic armor (8% additional incoming healing) and a Spirit Visage (25% more incoming healing) it's even more.

((1005 * 1.08)*1.25) = 1357 additional incoming healing. So yea, I think it's safe to say that it might be a little broken...

So, what we find is that SORAKA CAN HEAL 1k-1.3k ABOUT EVERY 1.1 SECOND AT FULL BUILD. Seems fair. Not gonna calculate for ult but yeaaaaaa....

Dealth13 votes

and then someone pokes her with a stick and she dies

Dominick Destine1 votes

I'd like to poke Soraka.

http://i.imgur.com/qMyyh.jpg

Arakadia1 votes

I chuckled too much at this.

Droogzy1 votes

Well first she has to reach the point where she can actually heal for that much, in other words, like 40-50 minutes into a game......

Abyssphere2 votes

Your math is wrong. Forbidden Idol buffs stack additively with Windspeaker's.

nananananacat1 votes

{quoted}

Your math is wrong. Forbidden Idol buffs stack additively with Windspeaker's.

NotLikeThis

Where did you get this information?

Abyssphere2 votes

Numerous Rioters have posted about it - most people assume it's multiplicative but they've clarified it's additive in several posts :) So it doesn't change your conclusion or anything, but I thought you should know that your numbers are even smaller than they could be.

nananananacat1 votes

{quoted}

Numerous Rioters have posted about it - most people assume it's multiplicative but they've clarified it's additive in several posts :) So it doesn't change your conclusion or anything, but I thought you should know that your numbers are even smaller than they could be.

Thanks :D

nananananacat1 votes

{quoted}

OK, so with Natural Talent, full scaling AP runepage, and windspeakers blessing with 4 Ardent Censers, Swifties and a Rabadon's, on lvl 18 full build Soraka.

You would have 618.57 AP, +60% healing from additive Ardent, which would stack multiplitively with Windspeakers, another 10% heal increase.

Soraka heal ratio at max level is 200 (+ 60% AP). (200 + .6) * 1.6 =

320 + .96 AP

(320 + .96 AP) * 1.1 = 352 + 1.056 AP

352 + 1.056 AP = 1005.20992

1005 HP per W heal, which you will have 45% CDR for, so 1k heal every 1.1 second. Now if the person has runic armor (8% additional incoming healing) and a Spirit Visage (25% more incoming healing) it's even more.

((1005 * 1.08)*1.25) = 1357 additional incoming healing. So yea, I think it's safe to say that it might be a little broken...

So, what we find is that SORAKA CAN HEAL 1k-1.3k ABOUT EVERY 1.1 SECOND AT FULL BUILD. Seems fair. Not gonna calculate for ult but yeaaaaaa....

340 + 1.02 AP, the number is smaller than what I thought it was. It's actually 971 HP per heal, not 1005. Thanks to MotherTeresa1910 :D

TNHA Baritone5 votes

The moment support mains get one good thing in their life we gotta nerf it right?

Yet ADC, Mages, and Juggernauts all have had their 3 months of shine + a whole update to go with them.

However, what really happens is that they just stack 5 Censers and a Deathcap or something like that

Okay so they miss out on a gold income item, sightstone, and no defenses. Like I'm unsure why people (not you DTN, you know Ily) cry over champions misusing builds when you can go 4 item AD J4/Lee Sin + boots and a defensive item and one shot everyone

MisterShameless2 votes

ikr! Supports are good now, that means more players will actually want to go support, I don't see any downside to this!

Quepha4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nYpl2WdE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-07-02T15:11:43.850+0000)

it is additive rather than multiplicative.

If it was multiplicative, stacking healing items would be much, MUCH stronger.

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

No that is not what multiplicative means here. Please look it up so I don't have to explain it. The bonuses get significantly weaker each progressive item.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nYpl2WdE,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-07-04T11:52:48.089+0000)

No that is not what multiplicative means here. Please look it up so I don't have to explain it. The bonuses get significantly weaker each progressive item.

If it was additive, then multiple ardent censers would be 100% base + 15% bonus + 15% bonus + 15% bonus = 145% total healing If it was multiplicative, then multiple ardent censers would be 100% base x 1.15 bonus x 1.15 bonus x 1.15 bonus = 152% total healing 152% > 145%

Hellioning4 votes

You're not getting four ardent censers and a rabadon on a support's budget. And if you're taking Soraka mid, you're losing out on a lot of AP damage, especially with that build. Plus, she's incredibly squishy.

so I don't see the problem.

Utility Backline2 votes

{quoted}

You're not getting four ardent censers and a rabadon on a support's budget. And if you're taking Soraka mid, you're losing out on a lot of AP damage, especially with that build. Plus, she's incredibly squishy.

so I don't see the problem.

I'm an 800k Mastery Soraka and I used to stack Ludens before Ardent. I can assure you, you can get 3-4 ardents in a game. Not every game but check my matches.

Angry Monster1 votes

i think its the death cap that is the problem on the build.

Utility Backline1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nYpl2WdE,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-07-03T02:01:32.229+0000)

i think its the death cap that is the problem on the build.

Exactly. I will say though that having 3 ardents is still a lot of healing as well, but very little benefit elsewhere. I stacked ludens previously because the movespeed + 100ap = 2-3 ludens 520+ movespeed 200-300 ap off that alone. But 3 ardents is a lot cheaper... I just need to weigh the pros and cons of more movement or more healing. Might find a happy middle ground.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

That gif is too lood.

Never knew they stacked in healing power, but do know that I'm not qualifies to say squat cause I don'g play healers.

What I can say, however, is that I love assassins, and the healing power I've seen on some supports is WAY insane.

nananananacat1 votes

That gif ://3

Arakadia1 votes

ikr

Linna Excel1 votes

I have not done the math but apparently it's too much.

I have done the math with soraka. 4 ardent censors (and the AP they give) heal an equivalent from 500-765 AP based on the spell.

nananananacat3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nYpl2WdE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-02T16:04:10.749+0000)

I have done the math with soraka. 4 ardent censors (and the AP they give) heal an equivalent from 500-765 AP based on the spell.

Those give you 45% CDR in total because CDR isn't unique either. Can you also add in a full scaling AP runepage, Natural Talent, and Windspeakers blessing ^_^

Oleandervine1 votes

The simplest fix in the world is to give it a cap, like CDR.

Miraweave1 votes

It literally doesn't matter which part of the item you make unique. Either way you make stacking them inefficient.

Madra1 votes

I'm a little surprised that the passive was not unique. It seems like rather clumsy game design. Heals should scale primarily with AP, like other powers. Not band-aid mechanics attached to a select few items.

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