Tibbers! How about have Annie toss the bear, so there's chance to react?

Deep Terror Nami·Jul 15, 2015·204 votes·7,954 views

Increase the range slightly, and give it a fast travel time that increases with distance.

Thoughts?

No I didn't just lose to an Annie. I don't even know the last time I played against one. Just seeing her get picked for the KT vs. SBENU match reminded me how some people hate her. In lane I just make sure not to stand next to my ADC post-6, and if she has enough charges to stun I just harass her so she's forced to use it on me and not the ADC or leave.

182 Comments

Sightless66Jul 15, 201540 votes

The problem with this proposal is that Annie is a very simple champion. She doesn't really bring anything except guaranteed burst with a stun. Take away the guarantee, and you immediately kill all reason to potentially play her. She doesn't have many tools, and while the few she has are effective, they're all pretty much indispensable to her. You have to give her something very nice if you're going to start taking away the only things she has.

Even if you give her extra range on the ultimate, that still doesn't provide her with anything actually unique. Plenty of characters have unreliable but powerful CC initiation ultimates. Why would I take Annie if she's just got another version of what they do while also only having damage to contribute? Annie doesn't have anything unique besides the guaranteed nature of her kit.

If you want to give her a more substantial redesign and have that redesign include a thrown ultimate, then great, that would probably be good for her and for the people who play against her. Do anything short of that, and you just end up with another Zilean. Boring for her players, too weak to make an impact on the game, and still in need of a redesign.

NamamallJul 15, 20154 votes

The problem with this proposal is that Annie is a very simple champion. She doesn't really bring anything except guaranteed burst with a stun.

Very true, she's an extremely simple champion. The only thing about her that isn't extremely plain is that she spawns a controllable minion. Her main issue is that she needs other mechanics and options besides instantly stun bursting people, because without her instant stun burst from Tibbers, she has nothing left.

If you want to give her a more substantial redesign and have that redesign include a thrown ultimate, then great, that would probably be good for her and for the people who play against her.

I actually made a rework idea thread: Making Annie More Interesting

I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Sightless66Jul 15, 20152 votes

The idea is interesting. I do like it, and I think the core concept of having different effects and making her more reliant on the effects of her passive is a good idea. It's overall a pretty nice rework concept. I just want to make it clear that I do like it, even though I'm about to spend time focusing mainly on the few problems that I have.

First off, while I do think the passive sounds pretty interesting, I think that the large disparity in the effects Annie can get would actually feel a bit limiting to the players when combined with her cooldowns and the large number of stacks needed. There are going to be situations where I really, really want to get certain effects (largely the stun, and rarely but sometimes the movement speed), but I'll have to sit on long cooldowns to actually achieve them, and the 7 stacks will be up rarely enough that this may be punishing. I'll have to wait on an important cooldown for a long time to make sure I can use it with the bonus effect. Redesigning her Q to be spammier (lower damage, CD and manacost) to help build up stacks easily while in range of an enemy might be a workable solution. Having a low duration but low CD E could work too, although I'm not sure if that really fits her design. This problem probably isn't particularly hard to address.

The Q pyromanic design seems kind of odd to me. I'm not sure about the idea of having her Q someone to apply a permaslow and DoT so long as she isn't CCed. Seems a bit odd, and potentially unfair. What is the idea you're going for here? I could see the idea of having her slow people down for the bear to chase them, but my objection there would be that a Rylai's on the Tibbers aura is going to do that anyway. I'm just not sure what exactly the point of having this is. I don't really know what you'd put here, but I do think that something else needs to fill this slot.

I'd also argue that having Tibbers stun is still going to be pretty important to her kit, and should probably be included in the ability. A lot of her utility her is based on a teamfight stun, and given that there will be less immediate burst, fewer stuns from her passive, and the bear will be dodgeable, I'd say that she's really, really going to need that stun.

Aside from all that, the concept is pretty interesting. I like having different effects on her abilities, I like the E being a more useful part of her kit and it does seem a lot more fair to play against in general. Pretty good job.

Hong Kong AnnieJul 16, 20153 votes

I really like the idea and it seems like a solid kit, but as an Annie player I feel it misses her core identity. Annie is a child who goes toe to toe with the most powerful mages and warriors from across the world. Other mages use hat tricks or combo mix ups they learned through years of combat experience and training in their art. Champs like Leblanc and Syndra use their spells in whatever order the situation demands, while Lux and Xerath focus their energy to fight from range. Annie fights back against that kind of experience the only way she knows how, with raw power.

Put simply the kit doesn't work thematically with an inexperienced child like Annie. She wouldn't rely on creative use of her spells and tactical evaluation of the situation, but instead the simplicity of her powerful destructive spells. A quote from her lore puts it best.

''Annie may be one of the most powerful champions ever to have fought in a Field of Justice. I shudder to think of her capabilities when she becomes an adult.'' -- High Councilor Kiersta Mandrake

NamamallJul 16, 20152 votes

The issue with having a kit based on simplicity and raw power is that it's not going to be an interesting kit in terms of gameplay. A champion based around raw damage is extremely numbers focused. In an isolated situation, the champion only wins if they have enough damage. Otherwise they lose, because there is no outplay potential in their kit at all.

You have every right to feel that my rework idea would be too creative, and too tactical, for Annie to realistically have a grasping of. However I encourage you to give Annie the benefit of the doubt. According to her lore, she bound Tibbers to a teddy bear at the age of two. Creating an easily transportable and inconspicuous way to carry around her extremely powerful guardian that allows her to summon it at will to protect her is extremely creative and smart. Annie is truly a prodigy, and while she may not be the type who maps out a battle in her head, she certainly could be capable of instinctively adapting her spells in different ways to respond to situations.

Even if it is too much for such a young child to handle, Annie's been out for quite a while now. Maybe it's time she grew up a little.

Thanks for your feedback. I hope you can see some reason in my claim. If not, that's fine, I still appreciate your reply, and I'll try to think of ways that I might be able to find the balance between Annie's simple nature, and gameplay's complex requirements.

UltîmaJul 15, 20154 votes

Guaranteed effect is actually a huge issue bot lane, where the characters are susceptible to burst. In fact, Corki's Q used to be instantaneous, which left him in an incredibly oppressive state. Since they gave it a travel time, everyone - Corki included - have been the better for it. The fact that a lightly farmed Annie (something she is able to achieve with the support items) can obliterate an ADC 100-0 after a stun, it boggles the mind that this hasn't been done already.

Sightless66Jul 15, 20155 votes

It seems like you're suggesting that because giving the skill a delay worked for Corki, it would also work for Annie. If that isn't what you're saying, I apologize for misunderstanding.

Corki was a much better candidate for the removal of the instant damage than Annie is. Corki already had a lot of value outside of the instant guaranteed damage, and the instant nature of his Q caused Riot to heavily gate its damage. He suffered heavily outside of lane from the Q having no AD ratio, which severely hurt his scaling as the game went on. He had problems that could be adequately fixed once his Q was no longer instant. Annie doesn't have those same kind of problems.

I think when we examine everything Corki was given to make up for losing the instant Q, it actually serves as good evidence for why we couldn't do the same for Annie. He was actually very bad the patch when the Q was made into a skillshot, even though that patch contained mana buffs for his Q and W, and a ratio buff for his ultimate. He stayed bad until a later patch when they added a 50% AD ratio to his Q. He needed all of these changes, even though what he lost was much, much less significant than what Annie stands to lose if her ultimate.

Annie doesn't have the same problems Corki did, and she can't get the same buffs Corki got even though he lost less than she did. Annie already one-shots people, so we can't up her ratios. She doesn't need and won't benefit significantly from mana cost buffs. She doesn't have alternate avenues of power we can build up if we remove this major source of power from her. There just isn't enough room to buff her enough to make her good while remaining even remotely healthy if we remove the guaranteed ultimate.

This is why I say she needs a full and comprehensive redesign, not a small change. We aren't going to be able to make her work if the only major change is giving her ult a delay.

UltîmaJul 16, 20154 votes

You make a very good point. I somewhat believe her passive is to blame for her problems, given that (bot lane especially) she can dangle a charge in front of an enemy indefinitely and either force them to play passively, or initiate a sure kill. But the point remains, until she has better forms of counterplay beyond "stay out of her range" she will remain frustrating to play against when she can eliminate her own weakness with one Flash, or boots of mobility.

At least Riot seems to be looking in ways to give her more interesting interactions with Tibbers. It would be neat to see her turn into some kind of puppet-master mage, befitting of an evil child.

Sightless66Jul 16, 20152 votes

But the point remains, until she has better forms of counterplay beyond "stay out of her range" she will remain frustrating to play against when she can eliminate her own weakness with one Flash, or boots of mobility.

I don't disagree with that. I just think that all of the minimalistic changed solely designed to add counterplay (making her stun fall off with time, making her ultimate have a delay) will leave her in a pretty miserable state, and one that is very difficult to properly balance. I'd be thrilled to see her get some significant changes.

SaiannaJul 15, 20153 votes

So.................................. She'd be like veigar after his """glorious""", """balanced""" rework?

StratJul 15, 20158 votes

Annie's tibbers range is short - around the average range of an ADC basic attack. If you can't stay out of her range of influence, that's on you. All of her skills are short range (Tibbers is her longest range spell) so she's taking a risk to unleash a combo. If she's got a high damage build, then you and your team should be murdering her. The only relevant mid lane/support Annies in higher skill Elos are ones that build tanky with just a bit of damage.

AdvancementJul 15, 201520 votes

{quoted}

Annie's tibbers range is short - around the average range of an ADC basic attack. If you can't stay out of her range of influence, that's on you. All of her skills are short range (Tibbers is her longest range spell) so she's taking a risk to unleash a combo. If she's got a high damage build, then you and your team should be murdering her. The only relevant mid lane/support Annies in higher skill Elos are ones that build tanky with just a bit of damage.

summoner 4 . Sorry but you can't defend this cancer of a champ. The only relevant mid lane annies in higher skill elos build tanky? ROFL. you mean rod of ages for 450 health? Have you not seen the Annie mains in challenger?

Curling VeigarJul 15, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Swaggyy P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1zcjeEfd,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-07-15T08:52:53.919+0000)

. Sorry but you can't defend this cancer of a champ. The only relevant mid lane annies in higher skill elos build tanky? ROFL. you mean rod of ages for 450 health? Have you not seen the Annie mains in challenger?

how can people even main annie? she's literally just press q over and over and flash tibbers whenever its up

SociopathFriendJul 15, 20157 votes

Flash is a Summoner Spell- any combo champion can destroy you with Flash- any champion can escape almost anything you can throw at them with Flash. Saying Flash makes a champion OP is like saying water makes you wet.

There are many champions who have short range as their best counterplay: Annie Cassiopeia Katarina Malzahar Syndra Teemo All of those champions can Flash to extend their reach, all of them do it the same way Annie can- Annie is not the problem.

DiscoinfernapeJul 15, 20151 votes

None of these people (besides Cass) start off with a stun so they can't 100% get off their full combo unlike Annie. Cass's damage is more sustained than burst, and more single target so her flash ult isn't quite as bad. I also don't like Cass though. Malz does have a suppression, but he HAS to cast his other spells or he can't until after the stun.

SociopathFriendJul 15, 20154 votes

The point is, Flash is a Summoner Spell that makes every champion OP- you're given a ticket straight to the enemy with nothing to stop you; Flash has no counterplay no matter who uses it. I could've posted Riven Pantheon and got the same result.

But people somehow forget that it equally benefits everyone and just call "Annie Flash Tibbers OP". Flash is an entirely separate argument from Annie. You don't like point and click stun? Fine and dandy, but don't act like Flash somehow isn't a broken spell on everyone.

ManwalrusJul 15, 20157 votes

Flash tibbers instacast aoe stun has Lots of counterplay... Oh wait

StratJul 15, 20156 votes

About as much as flash Sona ult (insta) or flash Malphite ult (near insta).

Ch0c0lateJesusJul 15, 20157 votes

Sona ult doesnt remove halve your team's health bar, nore does malphite unless he's full AP.

ChargeItDownMidJul 15, 20157 votes

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Deep Terror NamiJul 15, 20152 votes

Does instant aoe/targeted stuns hurt mobile champions more than immobile ones somehow? It sounds kind of like banning every LoL player and saying "Congratulations everyone, we have successfully banned all trolls!"

Sightless66Jul 15, 20153 votes

Does instant aoe/targeted stuns hurt mobile champions more than immobile ones somehow?

Kind of, yeah. A mobile champion is expected to dodge and avoid many of the skillshot or delayed versions of stuns and roots that an immobile champion might not. They're balanced around not taking the same kind of damage and not being subjected to the same CC as an immobile champion would. That expectation falls apart when instant abilities come into play. An instant or targeted stun might have the exact same numbers as the skillshot or delayed version, so it's nothing special to an immobile champion who is built to take some hits and eat some CC, but it will actually hit the mobile champion 100% of the time. Just hitting them and applying CC to them is something the mobile champion may not be equipped to deal with, and it easily cause them to get popped like overripe grapes.

I don't agree with HAAAAAAAALP that instant and targeted stuns are necessary to deal with mobility (there are obviously some design concerns with these abilities), but they absolutely do hurt mobile champions more than immobile ones.

Neo CyrusJul 15, 20156 votes

As an Annie "main" I've been saying this forever. Q also needs to be remade into a skillshot. Skillshots make it so the skills can have a bit more range and so it doesn't feel like cheese. Oh look at me, I pressed F then R, LCS Big Plays.

NamamallJul 15, 20155 votes

Honestly I'd prefer if Riot stayed away from turning every targeted skill into a skillshot. Don't get me wrong, skillshots are great, but there are other ways to rework champions without turning everything into a skillshot. It's not toxic enough of an ability to warrant the skillshot treatment.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 15, 20153 votes

However, Riot and many others clearly haven't figured out a better alternative yet. Plus, a skillshot will ALWAYS be superior than a simple minded no-thinking point and click ability.

NamamallJul 15, 20151 votes

The Sona and Gangplank reworks are examples of Riot fixing core issues with champions' designs without removing their targeted abilities. I don't think that Annie's Q being targeted is the main issue with her kit. In my opinion it's her passive, and that's what the focus should be on if they ever do rework her. Her Q is very boring right now, but with some changes to her passive it could be spiced up a little without turning it into a skillshot.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 15, 20154 votes

Gangplank's main issue was critplank, and they fixed it by taking out Crit masteries.

His other issue being a lack of a gameplay identity could easily be fixed in any way, that's hardly an achievement. As for Sona, look how well that turned out. It pissed off nearly every Sona player and people still hate her.

Even I, who don't play Sona, understood how incompetent her rework was.

LlaniteJul 15, 20155 votes

Fun fact: Tibber stun is x2 harder Q-stun or W-stun. At least the former require aiming.

BakedLotionJul 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fun fact: Tibber stun is x2 harder Q-stun or W-stun. At least the former require aiming.

Tibbers is instant and the aoe is larger than W. W is also instant but its a cone and has shorter range and smaller aoe Tell me how Tibbers is harder than W. Both of them aren't skill shots. They're just instant cast aoe's that hit whenever u press it. I have yet to see an annie miss a W or Tibbers unless they flash away or you're just out of range

LlaniteJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Tibbers is instant and the aoe is larger than W. W is also instant but its a cone and has shorter range and smaller aoe Tell me how Tibbers is harder than W. Both of them aren't skill shots. They're just instant cast aoe's that hit whenever u press it. I have yet to see an annie miss a W or Tibbers unless they flash away or you're just out of range

For starter, R has higher range but smaller AOE radius, smaller hitbox = higher chance to miss.

There is also risk if you want to hit someone 1000 range away, random movement alone is already a factor, ping is another.

Lastly, it's impossible to R a non-melee with normal cast after a certain ELO (for me, around S2), with smart cast, you have to 'guess' the range to prepare your passive, people will run away if they see you walk towards them with the whirlwind.

Of course, assume that you are trying to R at maxed range. If they are <700 range, I'd recommend QE stun.

BakedLotionJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

For starter, R has higher range but smaller AOE radius, smaller hitbox = higher chance to miss.

There is also risk if you want to hit someone 1000 range away, random movement alone is already a factor, ping is another.

Lastly, it's impossible to R a non-melee with normal cast after a certain ELO (for me, around S2), with smart cast, you have to 'guess' the range to prepare your passive, people will run away if they see you walk towards them with the whirlwind.

Of course, assume that you are trying to R at maxed range. If they are <700 range, I'd recommend QE stun.

W radius is smaller than tibbers with lower range... Wtf are u talking bout. The W casting range is 25 units higher but that's at the far end of the cone. Tibbers casting range is 600, and it's AOE is 290 units, which makes it 890 max range. A normal Ranged champion range is about 550.

Also, I don't main Annie and i'm already confident whether or not the ult is gonna hit. It doesn't take more like 2 games

LlaniteJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

W radius is smaller than tibbers with lower range... Wtf are u talking bout. The W casting range is 25 units higher but that's at the far end of the cone. Tibbers casting range is 600, and it's AOE is 290 units, which makes it 890 max range. A normal Ranged champion range is about 550.

Also, I don't main Annie and i'm already confident whether or not the ult is gonna hit. It doesn't take more like 2 games

Tibber max range is its cast range + its aoe radius. THe total is somewhere 900-1000.

Cast range is calculated differently from AA range which has its origin at the center of the model rather than edge.

I see you don't play Annie. The ult does not hit 100% of the time and there are a lot of micros to maximize DPS.

BlackMagicWilsonJul 15, 20155 votes

What happened to all the "Stop turning point-and-click abilities into skillshots!" rant? The League community needs to make up their minds.

NamamallJul 15, 20153 votes

I am fully in support of this idea, after she does it in the A Twist of Fate Cinematic and it looks awesome. It would definitely need some compensation buffs though.

FatfryJul 15, 20152 votes

Never ask riot for compensation buffs Veigar

RueianJul 15, 20153 votes

What if they made tibbers a Zone Trap. Like Ori Ball, you pick up and throw Doll tibbers at a location granting vision, if you press R again it summons the regular tibbers at the doll's location, Or you can walk up or away and have the doll snap back to you

Keep her Q the same, make her Cone damage over time rather than upfront damage, and make her Shield grant grey health and break if all the grey health is taken, but it reflects back damage to all damage sources not just physical.

?? i dont know thats just a quick thought on what could be done with her.

Silents429Jul 15, 20153 votes

Okay and how is this good for Annie mains?

This seems nothing more then a huge ass nerf.

Ferus and FerrumJul 15, 20153 votes

And GOOD! The Annie mains have had it too good for too long! >:) Jokes aside, I wish that Annie's skillset would change when she ults. Her q could do something like make tibbers slam the ground stunning in an area, kinda like Gnar w. Her W would make tibbers roar out in a cone dealing damage and slowing, and molten shield would stay the same giving tibbers a movespeed boost. It would give tibbers something to do other than walkin' round slappin hoes, because, lets be honest, tibbers doesn't do much after the initial stun/burst. yes he secures kill with his built in sunfire but his autos seem more or less ineffective and unnecessary to micro when you have the whole team trying to ride your prepubescent ass. Idk, it would be a lot of aoe damage that would scale off of her ap, kind of giving her more to do in teamfights other than spam a 2 second cd q. item 3089

Silents429Jul 15, 20153 votes

Okay this screws up her identity as a beginner mage, and as far as I can tell she is the only remaining one.

For CarthageJul 15, 20153 votes

Brought this up a while back, which was brought up a while back before that, which was probably brought up a while back before even that.

The endpoint each time: "Waaaaaaaaaaaaah, I don't want my stupidly, toxically reliable champ to become unreliable and then have to actually use my brain to do anything. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah."

Even suggested that the blast radius be increase just to make it so that people had a reaction time but would still compensate in for the reliability loss.

People still bitched.

Additional information: Annie's ult, for those still wallowing in the frustrated tears of a child about the reasonable nerfs you don't want because "Waaah": Annie's effective ult range is 900+ units.

Good job. Your AoE nuking, stunning, DoT ult outranges every other fuckin' ult in the game save globals. You do not need that kind of range when you can ult-snipe somebody and still have the time to skip up (literally) and smash them in the face with your other two high-base damage/high-scaling abilities. You can have a nerf to your ult's range or a nerf to the immediacy of it - take your goddamn pick. But you can not have the longest ranged clickable ult in the game while simultaneously having the most reliable ult in the game. That is not good balance, children.

61413860_DELJul 15, 20152 votes

Maybe like toss the bear out and have a delay before it spawns to life? Just my thoughts.

MrButtermancerJul 15, 20152 votes

Lets turn autoattacks into skillshots while we're at it and just play this FPS we're trying to create.

Anticipation is a form of counterplay. Sometimes you need to play well to get out of a bad situation. Sometimes the point is in not being in the bad situation in the fist place. Sometimes the counter is dodging, and sometimes the counter should be doing something before your opponent's combo even begins. Sometimes it's buying an item before you even get to lane. Bottom line: skillshots make mobility better, make the game more chaotic, and when they're your kit instead of some champion that you don't even play, you'll notice planning and set up are less important than reflex and sometimes even luck.

This philosophy destroyed Veigar. There are people that want that to happen to Annie, I'm sure, but when this philosophy is supported, it will eventually happen to you. It makes the game less strategic and less fun.

Deep Terror NamiJul 15, 20153 votes

Can my Nami's Aqua Prison and Tidal Wave be instant now? She's ruined apparently because they aren't.

MrButtermancerJul 17, 20152 votes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

Nami is a different champion in a different role addressing different problems with a different kit.

Your construct is literally:

IF Veigar is worthless AND Veigar has a skillshot THEN All skillshots are worthless

Therefore, IF Nami has a skillshot THEN Nami is worthless

This is, of course, garbage.

Deep Terror NamiJul 17, 20152 votes

I'm glad you figured out it was garbage (even though you didn't realize it was sarcasm). I was using your logic for the argument so of course it was. Neither of them are worthless because of skillshots.

MrButtermancerJul 22, 20152 votes

Of course it was sarcasm. You're trying to say that just because something is a skillshot, doesn't make it worthless. That can be true, but it's not true in many cases because a champion is more than a specific characteristic of a specific skill. I wouldn't argue that Nami is worthless because she has two skillshots. Trying to insinuate that I would with the kind of logic above is juvenile and condescending.

You haven't even read my arguments for why Q becoming a skillshot has crippled Veigar. It is certainly more sophisticated than

Skillshots are bad AND Veigar has a skillshot SO Veigar is bad

The arguments I made were mostly against the "skillshots are better" philosophy we've been seeing in League lately.

Mintymentos NAJul 16, 20152 votes

I don't understand threads like these.

Annie is easily countered like how most champions are countered. Learn to be aware of her stacks and know how to lane properly.

Annie is fine, ATM. Low mmr players complain about the same things but tbh what do you expect? It's your own faults for not learning how to properly farm, play safe and having a good laning phase. Do you want to also have them get rid of the fog war because you don't know how to ward?

I play against Annie here and there and never had an issue with her in lane. And bad Annie players like to hold on to their stun FOREVER so she ends up getting behind in farm. Learn to play the game better and you can counter any champion.

Biff ManlyJul 16, 20152 votes

I feel like I've read that exact title 50 times. But it keeps getting posted. Cuz Riot gives absolutely ZERO FEEDBACK on what, why, how, or when. They just put up the boards, built a nice wall blocking themselves from seeing it, and beefed up LCS. Why would they ever even think to look here for community feedback?

Deep Terror NamiJul 16, 20153 votes

Popular opinion doesn't necessarily equal a good idea. I just wanted to see how popular of an idea it was :3 I couldn't care less if they change Annie or not.