Lethality for Challenjours

LegenDariusGaren·Nov 23, 2016·17 votes·2,819 views

The first image includes the Precision Mastery, the second one does not.

http://imgur.com/a/9Vd2l

http://imgur.com/a/7Qa1H

25 Comments

Hyrum GraffNov 23, 20161 votes

Appreciate the info. Would have liked to see a little analysis along with it, but good info nonetheless

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20164 votes

Originally I had analysis for it, but I was like, the picture just says it all. Level 12 is the break even point for full penetration runes and level 14 for the penetration marks. As to whether or not you should take it, I guess it depends on your play style. I prefer them over the old penetration system on my champion pool.

SherogarthNov 23, 20161 votes

Good to know that Riot "supports" late game tank fantasy by making penetration even stronger than it was and makes your carries in late game even more likely to explode.

Gues im gonna build more arm... i mean - cardboard on my tanks.

TwinkieProNov 23, 20162 votes

On the plus side you won't be seeing ADC rush ArPen anymore because it will no longer snowball them, not to mention crit will become more efficient for them again.

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20162 votes

Youmou's got hit with a pretty massive nerf, but Cleaver is pretty much the same. So ADCs can still grab that item along with their crit.

TwinkieProNov 23, 20162 votes

I've actually always been okay with Black Cleaver being used by ADCs. Better for when the enemy doesn't have enough armor to justify a last whisper item. Used to build it on tris all the time lol.

SnowFallNov 23, 20161 votes

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your info, given that I'm a big user of a arpen everything in LoL, I'd give you 1000 upvotes if I could. If it's not too much to ask, could you also compare physical damage on some spells in a graph, +24 lethality versus scaling ad (+35 at lvl 18, marks and quints) (without masteries)?

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20161 votes

I have already done that on Garen using the old armor penetration system (No graph though, just level 18). Scaling penetration is stronger than scaling AD. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qJEGK3BL-how-to-garen

Pale PirateNov 23, 20161 votes

Didn't the patch notes write that it breaks even at level 8?

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20161 votes

"These now grant lethality instead of flat armor penetration, and they all break even at level 12. "

However, the graph shows that Level 12 is the break even point for full penetration runes and level 14 for the penetration marks.

Oakleaf RangerNov 23, 20161 votes

Umm can you put this in lame man terms for me. I had enough trouble trying to understand how old armor pen worked and having to take into account that it also scales with enemy level put it over my head. The question most important to me is when/if armor pen runes become better than flat AD reds or a mix of flat reds and lethality (like AD quints and lethality marks).

Photos of GhostsNov 23, 20161 votes

Basically that number that was called "armor pen" - it now increases based on enemy level. You then take that number and do the mathy math. This graph can only tell us that you get more arpen from runes now than before, once you get pas level 12.

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20161 votes

Penetration has always been better than flat AD in terms of damage output. Flat AD just helps you last hit in the early levels. If you are learning a champion, then maybe try flat AD to help you get through the first few levels. As you play more games, you can switch to penetration. I rush tiamat to help me last hit and so I can run the penetration runes instead.

TsohgderNov 23, 20161 votes

I'll throw some quick numbers. I hope I don't make too many mistakes.

Champions have 20-30 base armor at level 1, plus 9 from runes, let's say the average champion has 34 armor at lvl 1.

34 armor = 100/(100+34) = 74% damage taken at level 1.

With old marks+masteries lvl 1 (15 armor pen): 34 - 15 = 19 armor = 89% damage taken

89/74=1.2, so old runes add 20% extra damage at level 1 on average

new marks+masteries lvl 1 (9 armor pen): 34-9 = 25 armor = 80% damage taken

80/74 = 1.08, so new runes add +8% extra damage at level 1 on average

Champions have 70-100 armor at level 18, so let's go with 85 + 9 from runes. That's 51,5% damage taken at lvl 18.

old marks+masteries lvl 18 (20,4 armor pen) 94 - 20 = 74 armor = 57,4% damage

57,4/51,5 = 1.11 = 11% damage increase

new marks+masteries lvl 18 (22,5 armor pen) 94 - 22,5 = 71,5 armor = 58,3% damage

58,3/51,5 = 1,13 = 13% damage increase

Of course these are just quick numbers, some of them could be wrong, armor items are not taken into account, or other armor pen sources, etc.

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20161 votes

With old marks+masteries lvl 1 (15 armor pen): Should be 15.3 instead new marks+masteries lvl 1 (9 armor pen): Should be 9.75 instead Champions have 70-100 armor at level 18, so let's go with 85 + 9 from runes.: It is actually closer to like 88.

TsohgderNov 23, 20161 votes

Yeah, I wasn't too accurate, but we still get the idea :) Items are a different story though.

Lord DesertNov 23, 20161 votes

You should also include the max pen with the 3 lethality items. Since Duskblade and EoN give more pen then old duskblade/maw. This should show the other guys, how "weak/nerfed" ArPen/Lethality really is.

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20161 votes

Give me levels (as in enemy) that the items are purchased. What rune page? Do you want just a graph showing how much penetration you have, or do you want one showing how much damage output (% increase etc) done at those levels/level 18.

Lord DesertNov 23, 20161 votes

hmm tricky question, 3 graphs may be good enough. And we should pick reds and precision, quints might be abit to much, ad quints are more popular. We then compare maw+duskblade+youmuus vs EoN+duskblade+youmuus with 1graph rushing ghostblade at level 9 and then at 13 the next item and at 15 the 3rd one. Those times should be realistic enough, but we can change them, if you like other more. The next one should be not rushing youmuus, but rather duskblade or EoN and and after that ghostblade and the last one. And the last thing should be how much % increase we get if those extra penvalues reduce the enemy armor to 0.(basicly the best possible %increase). Those should show how "bad" lethality really is. Other options you might want to include?

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20161 votes

That might take a while to do, but I will see if I can later on today. Do I not include serrated Dirk? (better for calculations, but not as realistic). And you should have a completed item by level 8 easily. I think level 8, 11, 14 are much more realistic (especially on an assassin that is hunting for kills). Unless you have Cleaver, you cannot reduce the enemy's armor "value" to 0. (Cleaver shred is applied first). I am teaching class in a bit, and tomorrow is turkey day, so I will try to get these all by tonight.

Lord DesertNov 23, 20161 votes

beeing able to purchase dirk is extremely variable (do you get fb, can you go back as soon as you have the money for dirk etc. so dirk might be really tricky, but we can say that you get a dirk by 5 if you want to include it. Oh i forgot that they try to get as many kills as possible! 8/11/14 should be better! If you have 80 ArmorPen at lvl18 and the enemy has 70 armor, you reduce their armor to 0, not to -10, which means that they take basicly 100% aka. truedmg. No worrys you dont need todo everything now, take your time!

LegenDariusGarenNov 24, 20161 votes

Here you go: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1d3LEZwv-lethality-graph-with-items

Lord DesertNov 23, 20161 votes

oh and you may exclude the level 0 because it could cause some confusion at the first glance

LegenDariusGarenNov 23, 20161 votes

The level 0 (for those of you wondering) is the base value (40%) lethality. So at level 1, its 43.33% lethality. That is why I included it.

Lord DesertNov 23, 20161 votes

I get why i included it, but its only usefull for the math, since everybody starts at lvl 1, so the lvl 0 is not relavant ;P