Kog has been silly since Riot moved his IAS from Q to W

Rebonack·Sep 2, 2016·60 votes·3,159 views

Then replaced the free attack speed with extra flat OnHit damage.

I feel inclined to reiterate that Kog's whole fanbase was saying that shoveling all of his power into W was a terrible idea and as soon as the patch went live and it became clear Kog was destroying everything his players were crying out with one voice to revert the change.

Riot, as is oft the case when they have a terrible idea, doubled down on it and made things worse.

So here's what I suggest.

Roll Kog back to where he was post hotfix-buff in the preseason and start over again. It should be obvious by now that Riot has been going down the wrong path with their changes to Kog and something needs to be done to remedy that. He must have some amount of his power tied up in Q to prevent his early game from being so overwhelming. Having that much power tied up in one ability is just awful design.

95 Comments

Tychusfindlay919Sep 2, 201624 votes

I dont think I have ever seen so much of a champ's power budget placed into one basic ability.

Moronic design.

kile147Sep 2, 201621 votes

Blitzcrank

Tychusfindlay919Sep 2, 201612 votes

{quoted}

Blitzcrank

Nope. Crank heavily relies on W and E. E has more reliable peel when melees get on your adc. W usually required in order to set up Q.

MrryZSep 2, 20162 votes

Not really, Blitzcrank can function without his E, although it is useful to him, if he has at least one other teammate with cc.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 2, 201610 votes

{quoted}

Not really, Blitzcrank can function without his E, although it is useful to him, if he has at least one other teammate with cc.

Have you never seen a blitzcrank initiate his CC with E, walk backwards, and when the knockup ends, chain the cc with his Q for a guaranteed pull?

In plays like that, the E is essential.

Stop trying because you're failing. Kog maw's "reliance" on his two other basic abilities is far overshadowed by Crank's reliance on his other two basic abilities.

Bladerunner7777Sep 2, 20162 votes

No shit in an E combo would he need an E spell.

Lategame, Blitz doesn't rely on his other spells as much as other champions because if you hook the right person at the right time then your team will blow up the target regardless and make it a 4v5

When people think of Blitz, they think of his hook. That's what (I assume) the original poster was trying to say. All of Blitz' spells are just an added bonus

Tychusfindlay919Sep 2, 20164 votes

{quoted}

No shit in an E combo would he need an E spell.

Lategame, Blitz doesn't rely on his other spells as much as other champions because if you hook the right person at the right time then your team will blow up the target regardless and make it a 4v5

When people think of Blitz, they think of his hook. That's what (I assume) the original poster was trying to say. All of Blitz' spells are just an added bonus

He does, in fact, late game he gets incredibly reliant on his W to set him up for a good pull. It's wrong to assume that that's what the OP was saying because in the context of MY post he's saying that crank relies on his Q to the same degree kog maw relies on his W, which isn't true. The closer crank gets to an enemy, the more useless his Q becomes. For assassins or juggernauts jumping on your ADCs, the E is way more valuable than the Q since the knockup is automatically guaranteed upon the start of the animation and it sets up his Q to be guaranteed as well.

Kog Maw relies on his W in every single situation no matter what.

Crank often finds himself in situations where he relies more on his E than his Q. Situations where he relies on E more than Q typically involve these champions:

Darius (get this guy the fuck off your carries) Yasuo (get this guy the fuck off your carries, also, he can windwall Q but not E. He's also INCREDIBLY popular) Leblanc (kncock her up when she goes to distortion near your carries) MasterYi (good luck catching this guy with your Q if you don't knock him up first while his ult is active) Riven (get her the fuck off your carries, the E disables all her dashes to set you up for a Q that she would otherwise easily dodge) and many more divers and juggies and assassins.

MrryZSep 2, 20161 votes

You're saying that like thats the only play blitz can ever pull off. Take arams for example, Blitz's main job is to land a q and let his teammates blow them up, the E isn't even necessary sometimes.

Also if a blitzcrank can get close enough to initiate cc with his e someone is either really out of position or blitz is ccing the wrong person

Tychusfindlay919Sep 2, 20166 votes

{quoted}

You're saying that like thats the only play blitz can ever pull off. Take arams for example, Blitz's main job is to land a q and let his teammates blow them up, the E isn't even necessary sometimes.

Also if a blitzcrank can get close enough to initiate cc with his e someone is either really out of position or blitz is ccing the wrong person

That's absolutely not how I am saying it. I never denied Q first combos from blitzcrank.

ARAMs are irrelevant when discussing legitimate balance.

Your last sentence is inherently flawed since many champions have to get into near melee range to do damage.

Zed, LB, Yasuo, Yi, every juggernaut in the game, etc. You understand that there are frontliners in the game that aren't necessarily tanks right?

MrryZSep 2, 20162 votes

My original point was that Blitzcrank can function without his E. As in a q first combo but with a seperate teammate supplying a second amount of cc or no cc at all. I'm NOT saying that he should have his e removed.

ARAMS are, at it's heart a teamfight gamemode, sure in general it shouldn't be called upon for balance issues but for hypothetical situations it does fine so my point still stands. But if you insist on just outright ignoring any argument made by me letstake a different scenario. A teamfight in midlane, mid to lategame, he can still function just fine by landing a q on the opposing teams squishy and having the rest of his team combo them. That is literally my argument here, you can't deny that it won't work or that blitz will entirely fall out of all viability if he lost his E.

Tychusfindlay919Sep 3, 20164 votes

{quoted}

My original point was that Blitzcrank can function without his E. As in a q first combo but with a seperate teammate supplying a second amount of cc or no cc at all. I'm NOT saying that he should have his e removed.

ARAMS are, at it's heart a teamfight gamemode, sure in general it shouldn't be called upon for balance issues but for hypothetical situations it does fine so my point still stands. But if you insist on just outright ignoring any argument made by me letstake a different scenario. A teamfight in midlane, mid to lategame, he can still function just fine by landing a q on the opposing teams squishy and having the rest of his team combo them. That is literally my argument here, you can't deny that it won't work or that blitz will entirely fall out of all viability if he lost his E.

He cannot function without his E. Bringing another champion makes no sense, talk about crank and only crank. He cannot function currently without his E, kog maw can function with his two other basics. He would still build what he normally does, press W, and melt shit. Sure he'll melt shit a second or two slower without his resistances shred, but he'll shred shit.

DepressedAhriSep 3, 20161 votes

Kog'Maw can melt when at full build even if he only levels his W. By himself. Blitz cannot melt at full build if he only levels his E. By himself.

Therefore, Blitz has a better design than Kog'Maw.

But at the same time. Kog IS an ADC. ADC's are auto reliant. With the argument of Kog only needing his W, you can argue Ashe only needs her attack speed steroid as well. ADCs in general have "boring" design. Kog's just happens to be overloaded.

FawkseaSep 3, 20161 votes

twitch's w and e are usually not even needed in his kit tbh

DepressedAhriSep 4, 20161 votes

I use all of Twitch's abilities regularly when I play him honestly. But him being an ADC, he relies heavily on autos, which q enables for him, so I see the point you're making.

Troll for TrumpSep 3, 20161 votes

Blitz Q is more like a heavily focused around gimmick. A lot of champs have those. Aurelion Sol with his W, Old/New Yorick with the ghouls(New Yorick much less so), Azir with his soldiers.

The thing is, though, Riot doesn't shove all of Blitz's power budget into it. Sorta like what they did with Tahm Kench and his W.

Like, Shaco sort of has a gimmick based on backstab, using his Q/E /R to get more backstabs, but it's not the core design of the kit. You don't HAVE to use backstab to be relevant.

MrryZSep 3, 20161 votes

So you're saying if you remove blitzcranks q he can still be relevant and viable?

Troll for TrumpSep 3, 20161 votes

Well, if you remove Sol's W, or Azir's soldiers, would they be viable?

RequiemsfireSep 4, 20161 votes

If you removed blitzcrank's E he would be utterly worthless and have zero pressure in laning phase.

Only Play DariusSep 2, 20164 votes

Skarner old Q and Cassiopeia old E

DeathTheHorsemanSep 3, 20162 votes

Singed http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/57/Poison_Trail.png/revision/latest?cb=20141023220615 Poison Trail

Kalista http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/b/b8/Rend.png/revision/latest?cb=20141104220536 Rend

Tychusfindlay919Sep 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/5/57/Poison_Trail.png/revision/latest?cb=20141023220615 Poison Trail

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/b/b8/Rend.png/revision/latest?cb=20141104220536 Rend

You ever try and get people behind you as singed while you're running at them without fling? Kind of difficult.

statelesskillerSep 4, 20161 votes

unless there idiots and decide to chase the singed

ofartSep 2, 201618 votes

the whole rework was silly and unneeded. kog was already a unique champion and all they did was make him more binary. RIP AP Kog: the last remaining poke hypercarry.

sir d wreckSep 2, 20165 votes

Riot's reworks have made a few of my old favorite champs fall out of grace for me (RIP GP, Karma, Kat and more... not that they are failed reworks, just that they aren't fun to me anymore compared to their old kits) I've been playing Kog since S2 and he's my second most played champ and I do miss old AP Kog too who will never be the same anymore, but I can't deny Kog has been my favorite ADC since the rework. To me it made him more fun, and I realize I seem to be the minority in this position and that's okay. I find he's got a very defined weak early game and it's very exploitable, and once he's got a few items he becomes very powerful and can sometimes melt the whole enemy team if they don't collapse on him. I find it very fun and rewarding and definitely often times challenging due to proper positioning and my team not knowing how to play with a Kog.

Also I agree with OP about too much power into his W because it goes against Riot's own design goals, reverting that one W change I would agree with but I love his AS steroid. There is no ADC that builds all on hit like him at all and he's a nice mix or AD/AP so I feel Riot succeeded in making him more thematically unique.

Why don't people like him anymore?

It Hertz When IPSep 2, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=sir d wreck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nUBQF53n,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-09-02T19:49:29.404+0000)

There is no ADC that builds all on hit like him

And you don't see that as a problem? He isn't a champion anymore, he's a walking mount for items.

sir d wreckSep 2, 20163 votes

Lol well put and true. There is lots of champions with items that give powerspikes though. I've always loved on hit champs, and I guess that's why I don't see the problem. You don't always build items in the same order either, I have found his "first core item" isn't always the same now that rageblade isn't all the rage anymore. You can rush wits end if you're against heavy AP, or Runaans if you want wave clear, or botrk if you need sustain or the % damage, etc.

He might be a walking mount for items but that doesn't mean there isn't interaction and strategy that needs to be used, and there is counterplay. I did earlier agree there is too much power into one ability but that doesn't stop me from enjoying him. Is he suddenly OP again or are people trying to buff him? As far as I know he hasn't been touched in patches recently? I don't want my main tampered with more. :/

Tychusfindlay919Sep 2, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=sir d wreck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nUBQF53n,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-02T21:56:48.588+0000)

Lol well put and true. There is lots of champions with items that give powerspikes though. I've always loved on hit champs, and I guess that's why I don't see the problem. You don't always build items in the same order either, I have found his "first core item" isn't always the same now that rageblade isn't all the rage anymore. You can rush wits end if you're against heavy AP, or Runaans if you want wave clear, or botrk if you need sustain or the % damage, etc.

He might be a walking mount for items but that doesn't mean there isn't interaction and strategy that needs to be used, and there is counterplay. I did earlier agree there is too much power into one ability but that doesn't stop me from enjoying him. Is he suddenly OP again or are people trying to buff him? As far as I know he hasn't been touched in patches recently? I don't want my main tampered with more. :/

"but that doesn't mean there isn't strategy"

Every game I've had with a kogmaw ends up with him build the same exact items over and over and over. Usually in the same exact order too.

item 3153 item 3091 item 3085 item 3124 item 3006 item 3139 (not necessarily the order, but these are the items I always see on every kog ever that isn't trolling with his now obsolete AP build).

4 on hit items, one that doubles on hit effects per every other shot after 6 basic attacks, AS boots, and then the anti cc item to allow him to get back to alt tabbing when the tank burns the last cc before being evaporated.

AnidanSep 2, 20161 votes

Koggy's biggest problem is the lackluster item variety for his unique steroid.

Though to be fair, that also ties into the relatively lackluster item design in general since they're mostly stat-sticks, which certainly isn't helping Koggy any.

RebonackSep 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Koggy's biggest problem is the lackluster item variety for his unique steroid.

Though to be fair, that also ties into the relatively lackluster item design in general since they're mostly stat-sticks, which certainly isn't helping Koggy any.

The double attack speed gimmick that's forcing Kog to spam OnHit items really isn't helping, no. As long as Kog keeps the double attack speed effect keeping OnHit itemization balanced on him without being kind of underwhelming for everyone else will be hard.

Again, it strikes me as pretty iffy design.

AnidanSep 4, 20161 votes

I actually agree. The nearest analogue to this situation is spellblades, but unlike on-hit effects, more than one person can easily abuse spellblades if they're too strong, unlike Koggy who will pretty much single-handedly keep on-hits a bit underwhelming for everyone else.

RebonackSep 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I actually agree. The nearest analogue to this situation is spellblades, but unlike on-hit effects, more than one person can easily abuse spellblades if they're too strong, unlike Koggy who will pretty much single-handedly keep on-hits a bit underwhelming for everyone else.

Yep. Kog's interaction with OnHit is like Ez' interaction with spellblades dialed up to 11.

Keeping OnHit items healthy is probably the best argument in favor of giving Kog's double attack speed the axe and focusing on the artillery part of his kit instead in a new remake.

Very Hard EngageSep 2, 201617 votes

oh im sorry, you expect riot to undo any of their changes? let me explain to you why that wont happen

riot never admits failure, they are always right 100% of the time, and they continue on the roller coaster they call league of legends

riot simply cant be wrong, ever, they are gods we are puny rejects who get the honor of rejoicing in THEIR game

StainlessTweedleSep 2, 201612 votes

{quoted}

riot never admits failure, they are always right 100% of the time, and they continue on the roller coaster they call league of legends

they literally admitted their failure on the ranked post a few days ago

Very Hard EngageSep 2, 20164 votes

"for high elo players" dq has failed the 1%.

"dyanmic queue is still a complete success and were only making slight tweaks to the ranking ladder to make the game competitive again" - at all other ranks

STILL NOT GETTING RID OF DYNAMIC QUEUE. still playing with and against premades in the next season.

StainlessTweedleSep 2, 20166 votes

''For 2017, we’re developing a new ranked experience that offers legitimate competitive standings for all types of players. We’ll have details on the 2017 features in late September''

Very Hard EngageSep 2, 20163 votes

and will you comeback and retract your downvote this when they reiterate what i just said here? no.

telling you now, you will still play with boosted animals, only they are on a separate ladder and ranked differently.

KeevalroySep 3, 20164 votes

That's a cosmetic change at best...gameplay-wise, nothing changes. Premades will still infest the ladder, they'll just have a different rank than solo players. Woo hoo?

BlåbæretSep 2, 20169 votes

Kog atm is extremely overpowered. He melts you before you even have a chance to get in melee range. As a ranged champ you can't win a duel vs. him unless you have some sort of hard CC. I hope he gets rolled back or nerfed.

DenevielSep 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Kog atm is extremely overpowered. He melts you before you even have a chance to get in melee range. As a ranged champ you can't win a duel vs. him unless you have some sort of hard CC. I hope he gets rolled back or nerfed.

Hard cc or gap ... hmmmm Pretty much 90% of the lol champs :/

dominusxSep 2, 20169 votes

not like you are dead before you even land on him

DenevielSep 2, 20162 votes

{quoted}

not like you are dead before you even land on him

let me be clear ... i'm not sayng he is balanced ... but it's not as OP as ppl claim.

BlåbæretSep 2, 20167 votes

{quoted}

let me be clear ... i'm not sayng he is balanced ... but it's not as OP as ppl claim.

Yes, yes it is.

ArthianneSep 2, 20164 votes

When I have to play Teemo ADC to counter kog(probs would have played teemo anyway but thats besides the point) Then something's wrong with Kog

NofeapSep 2, 20167 votes

Kog has been the same for a while now...hes not just suddenly op overnight its just that more people are seeing him with the recent nerfs to other adcs (some of which were counters to kog) When you see kog glowing just dont engage, bait the W out and then dive him. I main Kog and I agree having all the power in 1 ability is not the best design, but its also a weakness. People just dont know how to play around it though, they just face check his damage and get melted.

MunchCrunchLunchSep 2, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kog has been the same for a while now...hes not just suddenly op overnight its just that more people are seeing him with the recent nerfs to other adcs (some of which were counters to kog) When you see kog glowing just dont engage, bait the W out and then dive him. I main Kog and I agree having all the power in 1 ability is not the best design, but its also a weakness. People just dont know how to play around it though, they just face check his damage and get melted.

when he maxes it its on almost 100% uptime.

NofeapSep 2, 20164 votes

he always maxes it first. Even at lvl 5 there is still a large window you can hit him.

sir d wreckSep 2, 20165 votes

Yep... Kog throws wet noodles when his W is down. If you bait that out or engage after he's finished using it he's screwed for a decent amount of time. There is a few supports that can ruin his day too because Kog has to often stand still to deal damage. Leona, Naut, Annie, Blitz, Nami, Thresh and more can all engage on him easy when he has to stand still to auto, and you cannot continue autoing with those champs in top of you.

RebonackSep 3, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Kog has been the same for a while now...hes not just suddenly op overnight its just that more people are seeing him with the recent nerfs to other adcs (some of which were counters to kog) When you see kog glowing just dont engage, bait the W out and then dive him. I main Kog and I agree having all the power in 1 ability is not the best design, but its also a weakness. People just dont know how to play around it though, they just face check his damage and get melted.

He's been quite powerful ever since Riot moved his secondary steroid from Q to W. True, he hasn't been at the top of the heap the whole time since even more over-tuned champs were overshadowing him, but he has been VERY powerful the whole time.

And yes, he's still very weak to disengage. Kog loves champs who have to all-in and hates champs who can dance around outside his auto-attack range.

ABSINTHEgedSep 2, 20166 votes

Kog has been silly since they reworked him period.

I miss old Kog. Y'know. The one that could be balanced and wasn't prone to extremes based on whatever moronic on hit-items are particularly strong at any given moment.

Ulquiorra995Sep 2, 20165 votes

Power level aside, these changes he received since his rework made him one of the dullest champions in the game. More than 90% of his power is tied to his steroid; arguably the most boring ability type to use. His E is a one-point wonder and his Q isn't even that; honestly, if it was removed I doubt anyone would notice in his current state. And his ult feels like crap, plain and simple. His optimal play pattern has become "press W and stand in one place" for AD build while AP build isn't even remotely viable anymore. So his rework is a triple failure IMO - it failed at making a balanced champion, it failed at making a fun champion and it failed at retaining build diversity. Only way they could have made it worse is if they pulled Karma or Morde-level shit.