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@Riot - Context on Redemption Changes Please?

NinjaGuy69·Jun 3, 2017·1 votes·327 views

I understand that the current tentative changes for Redemption that are being test on the PBE are attempting to do two things:

Dissuade tanks from buying Redemption so that it isn't such a universal item on all supports.
Reduce the base healing of Redemption so that it isn't rushed by a sustain support directly after Sightstone.

I understand that you mean well by this, but the new effect of Redemption that reads "Heal and Shield Power is 3 times as effective on Redemption's heal" kind of negates the second aforementioned point. In the image linked below, it shows that Redemption is actually going to be far more powerful in the mid to late-game if sustain supports stack healing items. This is the wrong way to go and the item needs to be toned down to avoid frustrating players and negatively impacting teamfights. Some context would be appreciated.

https://twitter.com/Shakarez/status/869931448446398464/photo/1

9 Comments

ChaddyFantomeJun 3, 20172 votes

I fail to see how this negates the second point.

NinjaGuy69Jun 3, 20171 votes

I fail to see how this negates the second point.

They're trying to nerf the overall impact of Redemption, but if they implement these new changes, they'll just end up making the item even stronger in the mid to late game.

ChaddyFantomeJun 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They're trying to nerf the overall impact of Redemption,

No they aren't. What they are doing is making it less good to get on Non-enchanters while also making it less of an instant purchase. The changes make it to where you need to ramp the thing up , making it require more investment to get the most out of.

Champions like Malzahar, Zyra , Brand and Velkoz now may forgo Redemption entirely, or at the very least if they get it, it won't heal for much at all, making the trade off of taking them over an Enchanter more apparent.

NinjaGuy69Jun 3, 20171 votes

What they are doing is making it less good to get on Non-enchanters while also making it less of an instant purchase.

That's literally what I said in my original post. But even though this change should dissuade non-enchanters from purchasing Redemption, it's going to make it broken on enchanters in the late-game. Did you not look at the math? Enchanters can heal an entire team for over 3.5k health at level 18 with Redemption + Windspeakers + Ardent Censer. Think of what would happen if they added another sustain item on top of that like Mikael's Crucible or Athene's Unholy Grail. That would be over a 4k health heal for an entire team at level 18. And we're not even talking about their shielding and healing spells here - that's just the heal from the Redemption active.

ChaddyFantomeJun 3, 20171 votes

I wouldn't call that broken, given the fact that they are giving up locket to do that and Locket was made less good on them. The net damage mitigation overall is actually still lower, especially since unlike Locket, redemption has a delay and requires positioning.

NinjaGuy69Jun 3, 20171 votes

I wouldn't call that broken, given the fact that they are giving up locket to do that and Locket was made less good on them. The net damage mitigation overall is actually still lower, especially since unlike Locket, redemption has a delay and requires positioning.

Sure, they're giving up locket but many enchanter supports (i.e. Janna, Lulu, Karma) still have shields built into their kits. Plus, the new 15% bonus health scaling pretty much makes up for the base value nerfs to Locket because every enchanter support is going to build some version of Sightstone along with a Redemption.

The delay on Redemption is the only saving grace here, but if they do manage to heal 4 or 5 members of their team with it, then you're going to have a bad time.

ChaddyFantomeJun 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sure, they're giving up locket but many enchanter supports (i.e. Janna, Lulu, Karma) still have shields built into their kits.

How is that any different than Live tho? We are talkign about the power of Redemption here, not their heals/shield s on their kits.

Plus, the new 15% bonus health scaling pretty much makes up for the base value nerfs to Locket because every enchanter support is going to build some version of Sightstone along with a Redemption.

SS, unless they make it Ruby Sight stone will only give them 150 HP and 2 if they merge it with their Support item. Redemption, as you have stated is getting its HP reduced as well.

But more to the point is that they can't max out the Redemption heal as you pointed out if they pot for Locket instead of another Heal/Shield power item.

The delay on Redemption is the only saving grace here, but if they do manage to heal 4 or 5 members of their team with it, then you're going to have a bad time.

it's not like games even last long enough for it to reach that point regardless.

I mean, that argument can basically be made for current Redemption, despite it not needing the same kind of investment. And GW is always a thing along with displacement and general zone control.

I just think it is important to remember that the heal isn't a given and requires timing etc to pull off. It isn't like Soraka Ulti where the healing happens instantaneously and can't be prevented.

NinjaGuy69Jun 3, 20171 votes

Yeah we're talking about Redemption, but you can't just ignore the fact that they don't have other sources of sustain. There's a lot of moving parts here but it's pretty safe to say that these changes to Redemption are going to break the item again when you look at the numbers. You may not always have a great Redemption activation, especially in low elo games, but these changes are going to cause some considerable abuse cases.

ChaddyFantomeJun 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah we're talking about Redemption, but you can't just ignore the fact that they don't have other sources of sustain.

Ofc we can because those other sources aren't relevant to the point being made here. They would be boosted regardless of these changes because Healing/Shielding power already exists.

There's a lot of moving parts here but it's pretty safe to say that these changes to Redemption are going to break the item again when you look at the numbers. You may not always have a great Redemption activation, especially in low elo games, but these changes are going to cause some considerable abuse cases.

I disagree. If Redemption + Locket created a Net 100% effectiveness in this given scenario where both items are = to 50%, I'd say these changes will result in simply a 75-80% Redemption.

The current combination i feel is still much more potent than simply a the boosted 1 time use of a redemption because it not only is more consistent but also allows you to mitigate/block damage over a longer period of time.

With it being all eggs in one basket, it will be more of an all or nothing ordeal and promote trying to use your 1 change the most effectively possible.

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