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@Riot - Please be Reasonable About the Imminent Hecarim Nerfs

NinjaGuy69··32 votes·3,413 views

Dear Riot Balance Team,

I'll preface this suggestion about Hecarim by saying that I'm a Gold level 7 Hecarim main who has played him in hundreds of games, but I'll try to remain as objective as possible. So the main reason I made this post was to hopefully preempt unnecessary Hecarim nerfs. I'm sure that it's obvious to many who have recently played against Hecarim that he's currently too oppressive due to the recent buffs to the Ghost summoner spell. His win rates (and play rates) have gone up on aggregate sites such as OP.gg and Champion.gg from about an average of 51% to upwards of 53% and even 54% in ranked games since the buff to Ghost.

The important thing to remember here is that Hecarim was a perfectly reasonable champion before the buffs to Ghost. However, the way that his Warpath passive interacts with Ghost pushes him over the edge and makes him unreasonable. I believe that the solution to this is to change the way his Warpath passive interacts with summoner spells that grant bonus movement speed such as Ghost and Heal. Allow Hecarim to continue to gain bonus AD from all other buffs, items and spells that grant bonus movement speed, but prevent him from gaining bonus AD from the summoner spells.

I believe that this is reasonable because it still allows Hecarim players to take advantage of the bonus movement speed granted by Ghost while limiting the oppressive nature of the spell when combined with Hecarim's passive (plus it keeps all of his other numbers the same). So I'll ask again Riot. If you intend to nerf Hecarim in the near future, please don't nerf his numbers; instead, change the way his passive interacts with Ghost.

NinjaGuy69

TL;DR - Read the last sentence of my post. Hecarim isn't inherently broken, but the bonus AD that Ghost grants him due to his Warpath passive is.

Edit: I should have mentioned that the percentage of movement speed you are granted and the duration for which it lasts are also factors that play into indirect buffs to Hecarim (both of which feel unfair to many players).

64 Comments

SaltyKracka12 votes

...It's not the Ghost changes, honestly. Any Hecarim who really wanted to run Ghost did already, and did about as well.

It's the Triforce changes that pushed him up.

NinjaGuy691 votes

It's the Triforce changes that pushed him up.

I already talked a bit about the Trinity Force changes in an earlier post, so you can read that if you'd like. I personally think it's the piling on effect caused by all of the indirect buffs he's received recently. I believe his win rate was hovering around 52% after the Trinity Force changes, which is still a reasonable win rate if you ask me.

Trinity Force has always been core on Hecarim and the changes to it helped him a bit, but not substantially. The Ghost buffs are where his true abuse cases lie. A fed Hecarim that runs Ghost presses the Gotta Go Fast button and chases you down until you die. That's just the way it is at the moment.

SaltyKracka5 votes

Except the fact that the Ghost changes came the patch before the Trinity Force change, and the TF patch was also where his play rate started spiking.

Thaurron1 votes

The Ghost changes were nice but it doesn't give him all that much AD tbh, it's really good for chasing/fleeing though.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, they don't give him "all that much AD", but that's still an 80% increase level 18 compared to what old Ghost was giving him, on top of the fact that he already used Ghost anyway.

Ghost was buffed to be a viable alternative for more champions, because it was under-powered before compared to Flash. But if you were already using it before, because it was not UP for you specifically, then it's just a huge buff in itself, even without considering Hecarim War Path passive.

venomous frost9 votes

it's not his bonus AD, it's just that his ganks are unavoidable even if u warded, because he moves so fast you cannot back off in time unless you have deep wards.

it's also because all other oppressive junglers got nerfed, allowing hecarim to jungle without much risk.

NinjaGuy691 votes

it's not his bonus AD, it's just that his ganks are unavoidable even if u warded, because he moves so fast you cannot back off in time unless you have deep wards.

That's a good thought. However, I personally think his ganks were the same before and after the Ghost changes. They just appear to be more effective now because so many more people are using Ghost now on him. His bonus movement speed granted from his E plus Ghost is going to make him hard to outmaneuver at all points in the game.

But I think the main issue is that he snowballs harder with Ghost now and the amount of AD and bonus movement speed he gets mid to late game from Ghost allows him to chase down targets and Q them to death. That's what I believe is truly unfair.

venomous frost1 votes

his damage didn't really change with the ghost buff, maybe a little but, but you get what from that buff? 5 extra ad?

it's just that all the strong junglers that could outduel a hecarim got nerfed.

kindreds early game is shit now, graves got nerfed, elise got nerfed, nidalee got nerfed. Next in line is hecarim.

warpenguin5551 votes

wait elise got nerfed?

venomous frost1 votes

5.16 5.18 6.2 all had nerfs for elise without any buffs inbetween. After this kindred and nidalee pretty much took over the meta of strong early game junglers.

NinjaGuy691 votes

kindreds early game is shit now, graves got nerfed, elise got nerfed, nidalee got nerfed. Next in line is hecarim.

True, the meta junglers have recently been getting nerfed. I think another reason Hecarim's stronger now can be attributed to that. I still think that Ghost is a problem, not only because of the AD but because of it's duration and how much movement speed you get as well. Should have mentioned that.

venomous frost1 votes

you kinda need the MS to be enough to pick it over flash on certain champions.

but yes the duration is somewhat long, agree with that one

Sire Hippington1 votes

well, if the issue is only jungle heca and his ganks, hitting his clears by reduceing the Q damage vs monsters once again should be the right call.

I don't want to see them pull of another shyvana/nidalee where they gut his sololane till it's no longer viable because of his jungle.

NinjaGuy691 votes

well, if the issue is only jungle heca and his ganks, hitting his clears by reduceing the Q damage vs monsters once again should be the right call.

I think lane Hecarim is still fairly strong with Ghost as well. Most people just choose to play him as a jungler because you can impact all the lanes and snowball harder that way. They also like to have access to challenging smite sometimes as well.

R FLASH XD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=venomous frost,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a81AHBx8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-11T15:01:39.895+0000)

it's not his bonus AD, it's just that his ganks are unavoidable even if u warded, because he moves so fast you cannot back off in time unless you have deep wards.

it's also because all other oppressive junglers got nerfed, allowing hecarim to jungle without much risk.

Actually, lee is getting a buff

Sire Hippington3 votes

I think completely reomveing his passive from summonerspell interaction would feel bad, halfing the effect instead would bring the bonus ad from ghost to a bit smaller number than it was befor the buff. Imo this should also be applied to the homeguard buff, as his homeguard tp flanks where the main reason he was nerfed the last time he was strong.

Another option is shifting some of his power from early to lategame, as he's currently mostly a pure snowball pick.

DarkRitual3 votes

Maybe cap his passive at rates that scale reasonably with level, but don't allow ghost to boost it comoletely? It would allow smaller movespeed buffs to give some boost, but not full effectiveness (Janna passive, Karma/Lulu speedups, etc.) Basically, have a cap near where his item movespeed would provide, with a little extra room for those other abilities to help a little.

"Hecarim gains bonus attack damage as a portion of his movement speed, up to X MS." sorta wording.

NinjaGuy691 votes

Maybe cap his passive at rates that scale reasonably with level, but don't allow ghost to boost it comoletely? It would allow smaller movespeed buffs to give some boost, but not full effectiveness (Janna passive, Karma/Lulu speedups, etc.) Basically, have a cap near where his item movespeed would provide, with a little extra room for those other abilities to help a little.

"Hecarim gains bonus attack damage as a portion of his movement speed, up to X MS." sorta wording.

A cap on the bonus movement speed could potentially work. Riot has a lot of options, so we'll have to wait and see what they do.

LatetotheRace3 votes

From their recent nerfs/buffs I expect them to pick the most awkward "solution." So expect nerfing whatever makes no sense. Like the damage on his ult, or possibly his hitbox. hehehe

NinjaGuy691 votes

From their recent nerfs/buffs I expect them to pick the most awkward "solution." So expect nerfing whatever makes no sense. Like the damage on his ult, or possibly his hitbox. hehehe

haha xd. run it down bot lane. Those are the popular memes, right?

Teridax683 votes

I feel his passive is always going to have to be balanced around abuse cases in its current state, and making it deliberately not synergize with certain spells would just make it less clear. It would likely be better if it were changed to an effect with an innate cap, such as the bonus on-hit damage on his E (which would make Ghost charge it up faster, without having it contribute excessive damage), particularly since the current variable bonus AD tends to make his damage harder to read.

NinjaGuy692 votes

I agree with you that the lack of clarity on his E is a problem point because the damage varies. I think it can be mostly addressed with visual indicators; maybe assign a certain colored aura around him that changes based on how much damage his E is going to do as it ramps up. But capping his E damage hurts him not only in terms of the amount of damage it deals overall, but it also makes builds that provide bonus movement speed less gold efficient, indirectly making core items on him much weaker.

Teridax683 votes

I think you meant his innate damage, because his E on-hit damage is already capped, but I feel a cap wouldn't necessarily devalue movement speed, since you'd still get to charge your bonus damage faster with more of it. If you're going for pure MS just for the bonus AD, then sure, that's not going to be as strong, but then again I don't think Hecarim should be buying MS items purely for that. There are potentially more interesting ways of making him scale with bonus movement speed (e.g. having him charge up his E faster, which is what happens naturally already), and I think he should go for those instead of his current stat-to-stat conversion.

Blumpkin Nation3 votes

Or you know, just nerf Trinity Force so it doesn't become an overbearing item for his core build.

Baron Perenolde3 votes

It's a shame Hecarim will be carted off to the glue factory soon. He isn't Zed or one of the favorites, so his nerfs will be harsh.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Zed dropped a 4% win rate with the nerfs. (He wasn't even strong at the time ask any of the play testers at Riot who tested the changes)

Baron Perenolde1 votes

He at least got several lovetaps that added up over time. Meanwhile, SejuanI was bent over and done dry in one patch. We all know that Hecarim isn't going to get lovetapped; he's going to be dumpstered. I hate being pessimistic about it but playing this game as a support main for almost 6 years has left me a bit jaded.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Except that 4% drop was in one patch lol.

Also they haven't dumpstered any champ in any recent patchs, they've all been getting toned down instead of huge nerfs. If heca gets nerfed I expect some small-mid sized nerfs (Since he's notably stronger then Zed ever was). And more on from there if he''s still to strong.

MKDkilla2 votes

Epitome of tanky yet deals stupid amounts of damage. Cinderhulk+Triforce basically guarantees that you're unkillable and 2 hit ADCs at the same time. Wards also don't mean shit when he's coming in at 900 MS then proceeds to dash 1000 units and fear, while knocking you back towards the enemy.

Late game he's a tank assassin. E chunks ADCs for half HP and then just Q them to death. He can then choose to walk away or shit on the enemy team as well.

Change his passive to 20% MS to AD from 1-18. Make his E avoidable by blinks and reduce R travel speed.

Partholonian1 votes

If someone is unkillable with 0 armor and MR, your team's damage dealers are doing something wrong.

MKDkilla1 votes

Right. I forgot to mention he also builds Deadman's, Spirit Visage, and maybe an FH or a Randuin's. Gives him a total of around 3500 HP with +200 armor and +150 MR.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

2 things.

one. you can't do much if hecarim ganks you. what i mean unless you see hecarim halfway into the river you won't dodge his ganks because of how fast he is. also even if you flash he can ult into your team and the fear is long enough to kill you off.

number two. well the amount of damage he does is ridiculous. while building 5 damage items and 1 tank items and sometimes straight up 6 damage items.

why does he rush cinderhulk yet his E chunks half a squishie's health? increase his Q cd.. and reduce E damage

NinjaGuy692 votes

I'm reading some of the newer comments and I just want to direct you back to the original post where I mentioned that Hecarim was a perfectly balanced champion before some of the newer changes. It's not the champion's kit that's the issue, it's the extra stuff coupled along with Hecarim's kit that's pushed him into broken territory. Nice to see a lot of thoughts on this so far.

ZeeWolfZ2 votes

You really think Ghost made Hecarim good? Not the fact that trinity force has 20% CDR?

NinjaGuy691 votes

You really think Ghost made Hecarim good? Not the fact that trinity force has 20% CDR?

I might as well post another edit to clear up all this Trinity Force banter. Basically, Trinity Force is stupidly expensive so it takes a while for Hecarim to get, but when he does get it, he's a monster. However, most Hecarim players purchase Phage and Sheen before Stinger (which means they're usually stuck at 10% CDR until they complete the item). Also, Hecarim isn't an auto attacker like Jax or Irelia so he doesn't benefit as much from the 40% attack speed unless he's in a longer, drawn out duel with a tankier champion; even in that case, he's not auto attacking as much as he is spamming Q, which barely benefits from the 20% CDR because it's already at such a low cooldown. Essentially, the Trinity Force changes were beneficial to him, but it's not what's making him broken. It's the buffs to Trinity Force coupled with the buffs to Ghost and the nerfs to other junglers who were meta like Kindred. However, Ghost is the biggest offender of those three factors currently.

ZeeWolfZ3 votes

Ninja, your Hecarim will get nerfed into season 8. He is impossible to play against and if not nerfed, he will sit above Zed in Ban rate.

He has high reward and no skill cap to play him.

No need to defend him, he follows same principle as Yi/Jax/Tryn, no skill High Reward, smash Q to win.

If you really think Trinity is not an issue, good luck seeing Irelia in ranked. She is same as Hecarim right now, 1 Trinity, pure tank, Damage of a full built assassin.

This is what Riot always does: Buff the item, Nerf everyone who benefits from the item, Nerf the Item, never revert the changes to nerfed champions.

Riot is a fuckin joke.

NinjaGuy691 votes

Ninja, your Hecarim will get nerfed into season 8.

Riot is a fuckin joke.

My body is ready. <3

Zetto1 votes

What most people seem to not understand is that for the most part anyone with a stun/snare, or even a slow, makes hecarim cry. So long as anyone playing a champ with any level of CC is competent it's entirely possible to deal with hecarim.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

That's true of any champion though right? If someone's counterplay is to stun them then it sorta speaks a lot about their balance issues. I remember everybody saying this about master yi. "Just stun him and he can't murder you." Well, yea, that's what a stun is lol

Elewd1 votes

this is my personal opinion, i dont play hecarim but heres my thoughts on what could be done to nerf him. you can either do what you said and make ghost not apply to his attack damage, but then that just makes him want to take flash again and i like seeing different summoner spells on different champions for situations.

i think they should lower the base damage on some of his skills and increase the ad ratios, getting hit for 500 damage from a full tank hecarim isn't fun as a squishy. if hes full tank his damage should suffer due to it, and if he builds damage he should hit like a truck.

NinjaGuy692 votes

i think they should lower the base damage on some of his skills and increase the ad ratios, getting hit for 500 damage from a full tank hecarim isn't fun as a squishy. if hes full tank his damage should suffer due to it, and if he builds damage he should hit like a truck.

Allow me to comment on your suggestions as someone who plays a lot of Hecarim. Like I mentioned in my original post, Hecarim was perfectly healthy a few patches ago without the updated Ghost, Trinity and changes in the meta. However, he's a bruiser. You can't expect someone like Hecarim to build more AD, even if it's the optimal build path on him because of how his kit works. He has to get in melee range of you to damage you, and in doing so he puts himself at risk. A squishy Hecarim would suffer in the same way Aatrox currently suffers. Aatrox wants to dive on you with his Q, use his ult and auto you to death, but in doing so, he puts himself at risk of getting exploded by the enemy team if he simply dives the back line without any tank items. That's why Aatrox is a bad champion right now. Forcing that onto Hecarim would make him into a worse Aatrox.

Elewd1 votes

if he builds a damage item like trinity or something i dont really mind if he does damage, my issue is when the enemy hecarim has Cinderhulk/Randuins/spiritvisage and they still do more damage than the enemy caitlyn, there might be a slight disconect to me as a player. "this guy just built full tank items and did more damage than their adc." but i do understand the aatrox thing, i don't think ghost is to blame tho, it may just be as others in this thread have said, the jungle bullies that kept him in line got nerfed so now hes thriving. Hope he doesn't get hurt too hard, hecarim is one of the few characters when he gets super far ahead i can at least do something to get back in the game

JustMonika131 votes

Yeah Ghost buffs are partially to blame. I also blame Triforce changes though.

specter4241 votes

He should not get as much movespeed on his e if he is running away, it is bullshit that if he is in a bad position he can just run away at 600 movespeed.

Wyrmblade1 votes

I got a feeling they're gonna nerf him and Irelia, then triforce.

And so the cycle will begin anew.

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

Let us dodge his E Bam fixed we gave him counterplay

USG Failsawce1 votes

He's getting a nerf finally? Thank fucking god...

Nerf this broken cancer into the ground please.

NinjaGuy691 votes

He's getting a nerf finally? Thank fucking god...

The nerfs haven't been confirmed, but seeing as how his play rate and win rates are up and Hecarim isn't one of Riot's main cash cows, the nerfs are probably going to come. Especially considering that Hecarim has been nerfed in the past each time he was a meta champion.

WaterTribe1 votes

NERF THIS CHAMPION TO THE GROUND

NinjaGuy691 votes

NERF THIS CHAMPION TO THE GROUND

It'll be interesting to see the initial balance changes when the new patch comes out today. Hopefully, HecaGod can dodge the Rito bullet.

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