Why do we lose more elo when we lose than we get from winning ?

SirΤeemο·Apr 19, 2017·1 votes·2,343 views

15 Comments

lilpokflufApr 19, 20173 votes

Your MMr isn't normalized. Basically the system thinks you should be lower than you are based on your winrate. I have about a 51% winrate so I gain 20 and lose 18-20. If you want to fix this you need to win more and show the system you belong/ are better than it thinks. What will typically happen is people lose until they can win and then they eventually normalize to about 50%.

Edit: I don't know why I didn't check your name, you know all this already stop baiting lol

RenownedWheat42Apr 19, 20172 votes

MMR probably.

Last season (not ranked this one, yet) I'd get 20-25 from a win and only go down 10-15 from a loss.

DakloreApr 19, 20172 votes

Commentors before me pretty much have it. When you're playing in games far above your mmr, you'll gain more LP and lose less, but if you continue to lose and your mmr drops below your displayed rank, you'll start to lose more than you gain as the system tries to get you to the place you actually are at. The system isn't designed to ensure you're always going up, it's designed to try and accurately show where your skill is compared to everyone else.

MysterQApr 19, 20171 votes

Except it makes no sense. If displayed rank and MMR are not related to each other, the game shouldn't care what my displayed rank is.

DakloreApr 19, 20171 votes

Except it does make sense. Displayed rank doesn't equate to MMR. Displayed rank is merely a visual estimation, whereas MMR is a hard-line and hidden. Displayed rank does generally corralate to an MMR range, but they aren't absolutes. You can have mid to high silver MMR, but only be displayed as Bronze 1. In that case, you're generally going to climb quickly so that you catch up to where the system thinks you should be. On the flipside, you could be gold 5 displayed, but actually only have a silver 5 MMR. In which case, you're going to start falling fairly quickly. The latter case usually shows up in cases of elo boosting, or someone being carried by their higher ranked friend on a smurf.

MysterQApr 19, 20171 votes

It makes no sense to relate them to each other then.

If I am high MMR and low rank, I beat "same" MMR but higher rank. I get slightly more LP. But the system is designed to get you to a 50/50 so unless you rise on a super fast streak, you will normalize to 50% WR before you normalize your rank.

If I am low MMR and high rank, I lose to "same" MMR. I lose more LP to "correct" my rank. If MMR and rank are not related, then why the heck is it forcing players into losing more LP to correct their rank.

DakloreApr 19, 20171 votes

You just answered your own question. The system isn't designed to send your displayed rank upward, but to normalize it to where your MMR actually is. This is why players who get elo boosted will more than likely get shit stomped when they take over their account again(assuming the booster even gives it back) and start losing because they are outclassed, eventually losing massive amounts of LP. They might get carried by their team, but eventually, the losses will rack up and the system will realize this player is not where they belong and start hitting them with larger mmr drops and equally larger LP losses.

If your displayed is Platinum 3, but you're constantly playing against Silver 3 players, and going 50/50, the system is going to realize, "oh, this person belongs in Silver 3. I'm going to have to start hitting them with more LP losses unless they start going on a massive winning spree again." It will then attempt to bring the displayed MMR down to the actual MMR. If you're in plat 3 and playing against plat 1 and diamond 4, then the system will assume you should be climbing and thusly give you larger gains for wins and smaller losses for losing until you average out.

MysterQApr 19, 20171 votes

But my rank and the opponents I play against are currently only loosely linked THAT is the problem. There is no reason to normalize and MMR and rank in such a manner if they are not directly dependent on each other.

How ELO is meant to work. Beat player with higher ELO, gain more points. Lose to player with higher ELO, lose less points. How MMR works. Beat player with higher MMR, gain less points. Lose to player with higher MMR, lose more points.

DakloreApr 20, 20171 votes

Actually, MMR is literally elo. Displayed rank doesn't directly respond to your actual elo. If your elo/MMR is higher than your displayed ranking, you'll gain more LP for winning, and lose less for losing until you normalize your displayed rank with your elo/MMR.

Conversely, if your elo/MMR is below your displayed rank, you'll lose more and gain less until your rank display is normalized with your elo/MMR. LP is not related to MMR/elo gain, instead, they are two seperate systems that are somewhat inter-linked. The reason to make your elo/MMR hidden is to blunt some of the ranked anxiety from hovering around the border-line between tiers.

Say you're hovering between the gold and silver elo rating. If you lose, you're back in silver. If you win, you climb a little bit in gold. With the current division system, you can have a displayed gold 5, but be hovering between gold and silver elo by a few points, but still stay gold. This way, you aren't constantly worrying about dropping down a tier, and instead can focus on getting better and playing the game, since you've got more protection from falling from gold into silver, than you do falling from silver 1 to silver 2.

MysterQApr 20, 20171 votes

Journey first paragraph is exactly the problem.

In any game, beating a better opponent luck or not will give you more points. In LOL you get less in order to normalize to your true rank lol.

DakloreApr 20, 20171 votes

You're gaining less LP, again, LP is not your MMR or elo. You don't see your elo gains, your elo is still being moved around, just invisible to you. If you keep winning like that, your LP gains will improve as your mmr normalizes to your displayed rank.

MysterQApr 20, 20171 votes

I understand that. My point is rank should either be more visibly coupled to MMR or fully uncoupled. The current former makes the entire system trivial.