So legit Question as Diamond Melee Main

GigglesO·Jan 20, 2019·13 votes·9,393 views

How do you beat a champion that is: Ranged Point and click snare Higher mobility Higher damage Shield Better minion clearing

This is legit question. INB4 team mate, assume my team is useless. Yes I understand ryze has a super low winrate, yes this question is about him.

Edit: No standing behind minions doesn't work, he just bounces damage through them. Not fighting/ staying out of range isn't counterplay. No you cannot just "dodge" he has a point and click snare. This question is also related to lane phase because in teamfight phase he is well killable because teammates.

38 Comments

Zero Skill TankJan 20, 20197 votes

If you are picking a juggernaut, you can't really expect to win lane phase against a ranged champion.

This is what you get for absolutely shitting on some other champions during lane phase.

Ask yourself how do you win lane phase as Poppy into Mordekaiser and the answer is the same - you don't.

CatastroclysmJan 20, 20195 votes

The simple answer is you don't. Also he outscales you. Welcome to riot balance. :)

Death by GlamourJan 20, 20193 votes

oh hello rock, this is paper

ThefrostyvikingJan 20, 20192 votes

Having looked around in the thread, you were playing morde?

You´ll wana start either corruption potion or dorans shield to deal with the poke, second wind from the resolve tree would also be helpful

Goal should be just surviving, because a slow melee juggernaut basically does not beat a ranged carry in lane, just survive and try to put the wave in a good spot to make ganks look good and your jungler will help get you ahead to the point where you should be able to just roll over the Ryze or a karma even.

Thats all, same idea as playing basically any marksman with a weak support or playing a mid/lategame one against Draven/Lucian.

Or playing a slowly scaling melee into Darius/renek.

SexualNutsJan 20, 20192 votes

Sorry bud, but you are playing a champion with extremely limited options in that kind of matchup. And Ryze would be by no means the roughest matchup you can have either.

Literally your best option is going second wind and dorans shield, rushing Spirit Visage and mercs and then getting a damage item. Accept that you aren't going to hyper carry unless your jungler gets a good gank or two for you. But as you know, from the mid to late you can still do Morde things, you just have limited opportunity to win the lane.

Was this top lane by any chance? IF so, you could always try to abuse the brushes which are a way around his point and click. But even then it is situational based.

iDarkWindJan 20, 20192 votes

It obviously depends on the champion your playing, but if you're, let's say a juggernaut, I would say that a Doran's shield with Second Wind in your runes would help you out a lot. Even tought you said that not fighting isn't counterplay, it actually is in my opinion. Your job to win the lane in that case is to not fall behind and not die, because unless Ryze player fucks up, you won't be touching him at all or winning in 1vs1 scenarios. Nevertheless, like you said he tends to push the wave quite a lot, wich makes him vulnerable to ganks and also Ryze n my opniion has a huge disadvantage at lv6, because his ultimate is not a ability that does a lot while fighting.

But yeah, I think overall you have to change your definition of winning considering the matchup. In certains matchups, not dying and just play it safe and not lose EXP and get the most CS possible is a win situation. I think people misunderstand this a lot.

"Oh, Veigar and Talon are in equals terms because none of them died and both have the same CS" - Wrong. Talon has a lot of kill pressure and falls off, while Veigar actually scales very well into the mid and late game - AKA Veigar is winning the lane. - Just using as an example.

SH AzykanJan 20, 20191 votes

this learned this with pantheon a couple of seasons ago playing champs like fiora and yasuo. being only 10 cs down, but even in xp and not dying to the panth at 10 minutes, is you dominating the lane. Because you are going to be more useful late game and outscale him.

TekkenPlayerJan 20, 20192 votes

Champion select

Aatrox : build mercs, take tenacity rune, and basically run at him. He wont out DPS you until about 2 items and you can basically dive him at 6 Kled : ryze W is a snare, but it doesn't cancel your Q or ult. You can basically just man handle him. He's not viktor in terms of kiting, so it's relatively easy to gapclose. Olaf : land Q, ult, run at him. Take phase rush with resolve secondary + item 1054 Renekton : You're E range on a minion will generally close the distance just barely enough for him to be in range of a W,Q and it doesnt matter if he W's you won the trade anyway Trundle : Pillar, run up and smack him. You will win every extended trade, it doesnt matter if he W's if he's megaslowed with a pillar behind him Sion : Sion's Q isnt canceled by W, so if you land E then Q, there's absolutely nothing he can do about it, and if you ever get rooted, then you can shield his rotations easily : No one wins early, but gangplank doesn't give a damn about his rotation, both are scaling champions but he spikes earlier Camille : item 3057 e, ult, summoner 14 Irelia : Irelia just doesnt give a shit Yasuo : skill matchup Rengar : Rengar has too much early damage that ryze can't easily ignore without losing CS

GeauxxJan 20, 20191 votes

sometimes teammate is the answer tho.

Otherwise ig try to play mindgames with him and force a thought of "maybe the jungler is there" otherwise just try your best to either go even/not lose by too much and try to get things done somewhere else.

otherwise ig it would depend on what melee champion you're playing, if you're talking morde vs ryze matchup... ig it would be try to lose as gracefully in lane as possible and do something else around the map (granted idk too much about morde in general it just seems like what could be done)

GigglesOJan 20, 20191 votes

The whole mind games idea is nice, but the only way to do that is to go from an extremely passive to aggressive stance... which I actually did from full hp when the jungler was actually ganking. I started slightly too soon and died in 3 seconds before the jungler made it into lane... He then abused his point and click snare further to just leave combat with the jungler...

Maybe I misunderstand and there is another method, because burning him out of mana is also quite difficult without dying.

GeauxxJan 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The whole mind games idea is nice, but the only way to do that is to go from an extremely passive to aggressive stance... which I actually did from full hp when the jungler was actually ganking. I started slightly too soon and died in 3 seconds before the jungler made it into lane... He then abused his point and click snare further to just leave combat with the jungler...

Maybe I misunderstand and there is another method, because burning him out of mana is also quite difficult without dying.

From how it sounds, the idea was worth the attempt, just executed poorly, ig just give it another try or just try to lose lane gracefully and make plays elsewhere.

Also, you're a morde so you prob won't win that lane regardless, your best chance is to lose with as minimal losses as possible so you aren't too far behind

KàzzyJan 20, 20191 votes

play darius

GigglesOJan 20, 20191 votes

[sg-lux-2]

woodvsmurphJan 20, 20191 votes

It's kinda like playing vs jayce or pantheon early on. You play the sustain game. He has limited mana if he's going to spam a full combo on you... you have limited hp. Try to out-sustain him and stay decent in cs. If you're playing a tank with no sustain then I'm sorry, but rush catalyst (for the sustain it gives) and/or mr is the best advice. If you're playing a damage dealer like darius, renekton, fiora, etc. I'd actually recommend grasp... but that's just my playstyle. It gives you better ability to outlast him in lane while giving you some nice scaling and durability too. Another thing you can do is focus on just shoving the wave as quickly as possible and then bouncing back to base so that any damage ryze does to you while you shove lane doesn't matter because you'll heal it in base and return top when he's just pushed wave to your tower.

GigglesOJan 20, 20191 votes

Panthion does't go back and purchase a tear and or lost chapter and never run out of mana.

How do you suggest clearing the wave when him being able to kill you at level 3 with his point and click snare is part of the issue. He snares you outside of caster range drops a shitload of damage on you which also clears your melee minions.

woodvsmurphJan 21, 20191 votes

If you snag a sustain champ top pantheon cannot harass you more than you can sustain so long as you don't take bad trades. You don't necessarily win the trades or win in farm, but you don't get low and die either. And then when he's low, you can build up a wave, shove it in, base and return to catch wave at your tower with reasonably close item power to what panth has. If he's not going oom, then he's not harassing you enough to give a crap about his damage and he might as well have picked a scaling champ like gp or jax or fiora.

Ryze? Ryze doesn't kill anyone in a single spell rotation. He can't use 2 rotations immediately in a row. So if he holds onto spells hoping to catch you with the spread effect of using one on minions already hit by it, you can give up a whole one cs, force him to waste it on the wave w/o hitting you, and then do a trade after because he can't combo you then w/o hitting you directly with first spell and even then you are trading combos. If he does use it on wave... great, his combo is down for a few sec, shove away and force him under tower. It's not rocket science or particle physics. Just like with any other champ, the best way to trade is when they can't properly do full combo on you... the second best is when they can either combo you OR farm minions and you force them to CHOOSE one or other and then abuse them for whichever choice they make.

NyarlathοtepJan 20, 20191 votes

Since you mentioned higher mobility, that means your pick is a juggernaut? In which case it depends on the juggernaut in question. Aatrox, illaoi, urgot and morde have quite the range so they can dmg him. Darius, nasus, garen will admittedly have a bad time killing him. However his snare is extremely small. If he tries to empower it well he loses the bonus dmg. Though, i highly doubt that ryze has more dmg than juggernauts.

GigglesOJan 20, 20191 votes

Morde has nowhere near the range you seem to think he does. As far as getting to him with the rest good luck damaging him when he just point and click snares.

NyarlathοtepJan 20, 2019

By range i meant that he doesnt need to be melee in order to deal dmg.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 20, 20191 votes

He doesn't need the dmg, he already won the lane by not losing it. EQ waves for days until jungler comes. Free win.

SillaeJan 21, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Since you mentioned higher mobility, that means your pick is a juggernaut? In which case it depends on the juggernaut in question. Aatrox, illaoi, urgot and morde have quite the range so they can dmg him. Darius, nasus, garen will admittedly have a bad time killing him. However his snare is extremely small. If he tries to empower it well he loses the bonus dmg. Though, i highly doubt that ryze has more dmg than juggernauts.

Morde will never ever get near him what are you talking about lol.

NyarlathοtepJan 21, 2019

I said morde can dmg him since he has some range through his e and r.

MorgManBasherJan 20, 20191 votes

Try to make him run out of mana before his first back and wait for ganks, try not to take too much poke before so even if you have to give up some CS...just stay in XP rangeww

Ryze is pretty easy to gank top lane generally. Is he running Phase Rush or Aftershock?

GigglesOJan 20, 20191 votes

He was running phase which was part of the issue trying to fight him, between that and his shield zoom zoom. Had to give up farming all together. There was no running him out of mana because he would only use it if I tried to farm, and only on me.

MorgManBasherJan 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He was running phase which was part of the issue trying to fight him, between that and his shield zoom zoom. Had to give up farming all together. There was no running him out of mana because he would only use it if I tried to farm, and only on me.

Oh you are a Morde main, yeah I dunno. Good luck in that matchup lol. I would probably just rush item 3111 in that lane and try to just get carried through ganks.

I use to rush zzrot in really shit matchups on Morde, but that was before the item was brutally murdered. Maybe item 3111 item 3211 item 3116 or item 1057

I know item 3194 is really good against ryze, but doesn't feel exactly good rushing tank items on Morde... I use to play that champion a lot, been a hot minute.

I guess even phase rush would somewhat counter item 3116 too once he procs it but probably still your best bet for helping with ganks when they come.

MorgManBasherJan 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He was running phase which was part of the issue trying to fight him, between that and his shield zoom zoom. Had to give up farming all together. There was no running him out of mana because he would only use it if I tried to farm, and only on me.

But yeah, I feel you. That lane sucks for pretty much every melee. I mostly play Sion these days so it's not nearly as aids for me but it's still aids before first back.

When I play Tryndamere though, that lane makes me want to off myself unless he's bad (even if he's bad tho early game)

Zero Skill TankJan 20, 20192 votes

Then again there are champions whos laning phase against Mordekaiser goes exactly the same way, you don't get to farm unless he lets you.

MorgManBasherJan 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He was running phase which was part of the issue trying to fight him, between that and his shield zoom zoom. Had to give up farming all together. There was no running him out of mana because he would only use it if I tried to farm, and only on me.

Just looked at your rune choices that you seem to run every game You seem to go pretty tanky on your Morde so I kinda get the conditioning, but against ryze at least you should probably be running secondwind.

You also seem to always go sorc boots which I can understand since Pen is so strong, but you definitely need mercs for that lane.

0 HogapuJan 20, 20191 votes

Thought you were describing Karma lol

Joke aside, melee vs range will always feel terrible to play. Ryze feels unfair to play against, given how well he scales and how he can pressure lane. Legit, the only counter play is ganking him. That’s quite sad

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 20, 20191 votes

out of all toplane ranged champs he's the only one i don't know how to effectively beat as singed. Gnar i'll take as i can still dodge his boomerang, teemo i run down as soon as i have one mr item and noone plays kayle. But ryze just roots and walks back, he doesn't even have to try and kite my ass.

five oh tree Jan 20, 20191 votes

As Morde? Whip out Ol' Reliable: the banhammer.

Didn't ban him? Console yourself with the thought that 18 LP doesn't take long to recover.

There's not really a way to win that matchup if the ryze has a brain, as far as I know anyway.

Might sound a little nooby, but I'd be interested to see what Aery/ign/Liandry+sorc rush could do. You may be able to just start forcing him out of lane with your ult+w+e whenever it's up and try and powerfarm ahead of him til you group.

Lv60 Retri PalaJan 20, 20191 votes

Basically, play Irelia. W during the root duration and then use your 3 dashes (given that you hit your skills) to fuck him up. Maybe Kled can work too because he got 2 dashes and his ult, but I feel like Ryze outscales him super hard so you'd have to get a decisive advantage early on.

Frontline FuryJan 20, 20191 votes

Gangplank seems pretty good against him. I figure Nasus and Cho'gath might be, too.

Vi? Zed? Cassiopeia? Diana? Gnar? Jayce? Garen? All these should do just fine against him.

IllabetheJan 20, 20191 votes

Ryze's Snare is always more effective if the target is Fluxed' so technically yes...... you can dodge part of it.
You don't engage Ryze directly. You bait out the root, and then peel away. 5 Seconds later or so, you dive him. His W will be on cooldown, and all he will have is Flux + Overload, and you can dodge Overload.
Have enough Shield/Magic resist to mitigate a chunk of the damage. Like all strong solo mages, Resist is anathema to executions.

You basically have to disrupt his combo by taking part of it.

item 3156 item 3139 item 3065 item 3512 item 3091 all help this fight.

The good thing about Ryze's Root: It's short. .75 -1.5 seconds. Most Roots are much longer.

GigglesOJan 21, 20191 votes

You realize that he has two point and clicks and his non-snare point and click fluxes you (if he needs) right?

IllabetheJan 21, 20191 votes

I do. Which is why I ultimately concluded you need to unfortunately take some of the hits. Running away from Ryze long enough to put his root on cooldown is a viable strategy. You just need to go back in before it's up. You might be 60% HP from the first encounter, but that's enough if his Root is on cooldown and the rest does half its potential damage, especially if you have shield items like a Maw/Steraks.

MoonscourgeJan 21, 20191 votes

nvm.

You all in him, that's all. He can't brawl at all, especially early on where he doesn't have ANYTHING. Abuse his early, abuse that his Snare is super short in duration. Get Merc Treads and just faceroll him.