Let's talk about Infinity Edge

lostbob117·Oct 3, 2014·10 votes·2,812 views

So imo, this item is super OP atm. While ADCs are a DPS dealing class, IE makes them more bursty. Why is that allowed?

41 Comments

12talesOct 3, 20147 votes

While ADCs are a DPS dealing class, IE makes them more bursty. Why is that allowed?

Crit chance, contrary to popular conception, is not a burst oriented statistic. Every 1% Crit Chance increases your Auto Attack DPS by 1% - Infinity Edge's passive effectively increases your crit chance by half. It causes specific damage values to become more erratic, sure, but it's fundamentally a statistic that increases damage dealt by auto attacks over extended period of times. Ultimately, it's just a damage multiplier, like attack speed.

AzlagorOct 3, 20146 votes

the problem is that it is randomly bursty. If u rush IE and then get 2 crits on ur first 2 attacks, u burst down ur target an no one cares if u don'T crit the next 6 hits. On average, it'S just a %amp for ur dps, but depending on critluck, it can become very bursty at times, which is the big problem with crits ingeneral. I also think that crit with the 50%bonus crit damage from IE scales a bit to good into the late, carrys should be strong late, but currently they are rather opressing.

redniwediSOct 3, 20144 votes

It's only random on a hit by hit basis. The larger your sample size the more that "randomness" evens out.

AzlagorOct 4, 20145 votes

yea, but on a few hit trade, which often happens early to mid and even in clashes, u don'T have a large sample size. IF u get 2 crits in 8 hits, it makes a huge difference between having the first 2 crit or the last two. Mesured over the entier game, the sample size is evt big enough to get an average of 37.5% more dmage per hit from IE(u probably need more than 1 game for a large enough sample size though), but for each single trade the sample size is to low and the outcome can vary alot.

redniwediSOct 4, 20143 votes

That's not an IE problem though, that's Criticals in general. With crits in their current state IE is not an OP item. Crits might be OP, but the item is not.

KhristophorosOct 4, 20147 votes

That's not an IE problem though, that's Criticals in general. With crits in their current state IE is not an OP item. Crits might be OP, but the item is not.

IE is part of the problem since it increases crit damage. Crit damage is the problem. IE is the only item that gives crit damage.

redniwediSOct 4, 20142 votes

All crit items are part of the problem by your logic. As has already been stated crits are only a damage multiplier. This threads problem with crits is their randomness. That is fully covered by crit chance, not crit damage. At 100% crit chance there is no problem as it is a non-random damage multiplier.

Without the randomness there is no problem, and as such it is a problem with crit chance and not IE.

Sire HippingtonOct 4, 20143 votes

It's true that without randomness, there is no problem wth IE crit damage(besides amping the dps a bit to much in the late imo)

but with randomness, which curretnly is there, IE increases the prblematic as it increases the diffference between crit and no-crit by 50% and with that the impact of lucky critstreaks by 50%

redniwediSOct 4, 20141 votes

IE increases the problem, but it is not the cause of the problem. You can change IE all you like but the problem will still be there.

The5lackerOct 4, 20141 votes

CRIT CHANCE is the problem. Not CRIT DAMAGE, CRIT CHANCE. IN ITS ENTIRETY.

Comprende?

LevyathynOct 4, 20141 votes

The thing is, ADCs are designed to scale in a more broken way than other champs. That's what makes them carries. And crit chance is the only random number stat really left in the game to a major degree just to help potentially outmatched ADCs still maintain viable dueling potential against harder opponents, with more levels and better items.

If someone hits all their crits, and the other player doesn't, then anyone can win, especially when you add in the plays, the kits, and some teamwork. At least, that's how I feel about it.

MarthianOct 3, 20142 votes

To be honest, before the "adc patch" ADCs were having a hard time. All too often someone would build one or two damage items, then go up in an adc's face and destroy them and be absurdly tanky. And it's still a common issue today.

Really the best counterplay to ADCs (since season 1~) is to focus the carry.

AzlagorOct 4, 20144 votes

The enitire game resolves only around ad-carrys, since S1, all other classes can be exchanged depending on team comp, only adc is always there. I don'T think it would hurt to make them a slight bit less dominant, atleast in the endgame. The problem u descrobed was the midgame problem most adc suffered since S3, as the tank item changes allowed bruisrs/tanks to get a high amount of armor+ad(+as-slow) with just 1 item, so by the point everyone only got 1-2 items, bruisers and tanks out muscled carrys. In the endgame, carrys always were monsters because of all the multiplicative scalings. I never felt like adc were ever in a 'bad spot' ....

67chromeOct 4, 20143 votes

I'm pretty sure that has everything to do with tower-sieging potential.

To win the game you need to topple towers - the Nexus is invulnerable until you destroy at least 5 towers, 3 in a lane and the 2 Nexus turrets. You also need to take out an inhibitor.

Outside of a select few champions, abilities generally deal 0 damage to structures and can't target them - which means you're pretty much forced to pick a marksman to CYA in being able to actually win a game. Subsequently this also explains why Melee ADC's haven't really caught on.

You can easily match the late-game potential of marksman with a wide range of assassins, fighters, and mages. Taking objectives is mostly the monopoly marksman have.

Also - why are you capitalizing the T in don't?

Sire HippingtonOct 4, 20143 votes

some how i often have shift still pressed after " ' " when i hit the t^^

Towersieging definitly plays a big role, and considering this, why do adc not pay a bigger tradeoff for their insane sieging and overall objektive-dps? they are the centerpoint off any lategame and most midgame fights, and they are also the key role for takeing objektives...

67chromeOct 5, 20141 votes

they are the centerpoint off any lategame and most midgame fights, and they are also the key role for takeing objektives...

They're a center-point more because they're completely useless without gold, they're almost completely useless if they don't have a solid 6+ seconds to work with, and the longer they survive the larger their potential contribution can become.

As such - giving them a lot of farm, kill credit, protecting them, and focusing them first tend to be optimal strategies.

I wouldn't say it's because they're more game-changing than other rolls. Needing gold and 6+ seconds to work with isn't exactly amazing when most tanks, assassins, mages, fighters, and supports can do a solid job within 2 seconds and with less gold.

I'd go more with they're unique strength in being efficient at taking objectives, and there unique play style, are why they're picked.

There are a lot of trade-offs with playing marksman. You're heavily reliant on the support of your team to do much of anything for all of early game, and due to their strengths and weaknesses - make 1 wrong move and you're toast.

If you watch the LCS you'll generally notice the champion that actually carries their team to victory can be a top-lanner, mid-lanner, jungler, or support as well - Riot has generally done a pretty solid job at allowing a wide range of rolls a chance to shine. You can pretty much carry your team on your back by never missing Thresh hooks.

cshakesOct 4, 20141 votes

Side note: damage to structures is calculated as the larger of your AD and 40% of your AP, which means that APCs' autoattacks are relevant on towers, too. However, they have a lower attack speed, so they get a smaller amount of DPS on the tower than an ADC (unless they have Nashor's or something)

67chromeOct 5, 20141 votes

Side note: damage to structures is calculated as the larger of your AD and 40% of your AP, which means that APCs' autoattacks are relevant on towers, too. However, they have a lower attack speed, so they get a smaller amount of DPS on the tower than an ADC (unless they have Nashor's or something)

Yeah, I'm aware of that.

It's just - anyone that rivals marksman in doing so tends to come with a significant number disadvantages, particularly in siege scenarios. The AA range of most AP champions with decent AS scalings are tied with or less than that of Vayne and Draven's AA range, and when you get to respectable base AA range mages like Anivia, Zyra, and Annie; you're looking at among the worst %AS and AD bases/scalings in the game.

Also - to get things like Lich Bane procs or a Tibber's tower-sponge, you kind of need to waste important cooldowns.

A decent number of AP champions are solid at taking a tower in a split-push, not so much when it's defended.

KhristophorosOct 4, 20147 votes

While ADCs are a DPS dealing class, IE makes them more bursty. Why is that allowed?

Crit chance, contrary to popular conception, is not a burst oriented statistic. Every 1% Crit Chance increases your Auto Attack DPS by 1% - Infinity Edge's passive effectively increases your crit chance by half. It causes specific damage values to become more erratic, sure, but it's fundamentally a statistic that increases damage dealt by auto attacks over extended period of times. Ultimately, it's just a damage multiplier, like attack speed.

In real situations it is a burst mechanic because champions don't have enough EHP to tank many crits from a farmed ADC with IE.

To make matters worse, many ADCs have ways to compress multiple attacks into short time frames. This makes their damage more bursty and crit just compounds on that.

Earl EulrichOct 4, 20143 votes

If they would just change Crit into a flat +%AA-dmg-amplifier that would be true, but with the current RNG-based Crit it´s just massive difference between Crit and non-Crit, surpassing hitting a skillshot with a mage or missing it often times. That difference is just unacceptable, as it makes ADC-Gameplay incredible luck-based, especially in the midgame...while this class should in theorie be more skill-based than any other given the absurd potential to deal dmg. But if you ain´t critting it doesn´t matter what you do on most ADCs....you won´t deal dmg.

WorgslargOct 4, 20147 votes

Because crit is broken.

SerophousOct 3, 20145 votes

Funny me and my friends talked about this last now how its required in pretty much all ADCs. When the idea of 'thornmail' came up to counter, we all laughed since an ADC will do enough DMG and life steal to counter the return DMG.

ProfDrDeathOct 4, 20142 votes

No.

Out of the current crop of ADCs, almost none will outheal the return damage of Thornmail, simply due to the way that item works. The damage it does is pre-mitigation, meaning, it will always do 30% of your AD (60/75% of your AD for a crit) as damage. This damage is then reduced by your MR. Lifesteal, on the other hand, works post-mitigation - you only heal based on the damage you do to the enemy's HP. Meaning, if you'd attack a target with 200 effective Armor, you'd heal of Lifesteal% x 33% (1-200/300) x your AD.

Hence, to outheal Thornmail on a target with 200 effective Armor, as a 50 MR carry, you'd need 20/33 = 60% Lifesteal.

Earl EulrichOct 4, 20145 votes

though the problem remains that you just kill the "tank" in a few seconds and then hit a minion 2 times and you´re full health again...for an item that has the sole purpose to counter AA-focused dmg it really doesn´t do that good of a job later on in the game.

Sire HippingtonOct 4, 20143 votes

well, it would do a good job if lifesteal vs minons wouldn'T be that high, and most off all if armor as a stat would be more relevant. with a bc in the team and LW on the carry, u ignore 50% armor...

YuGiHoOct 3, 20144 votes

idk, its definitely saying somethng thats its a Core Item On all champions in The Marksman roll (Minus teemo).and its almost never a bad idea to rush it.

WorgslargOct 4, 20141 votes

It's shit on lucian/ez imo. They are AD casters.

It far outclasses anything else for pure-auto carries though.

ZeroAnarchyOct 4, 20146 votes

You are clearly not taking advantage of their passives if you are not auto-attacking.

WorgslargOct 4, 20141 votes

When I play AD casters, I play them as a caster. Sure their auto's have a lot of damage, but IE just isnt good on AD casters imo, as its passives do not apply to any of their abilities, thus making it less gold efficent for them.

Sire HippingtonOct 4, 20145 votes

i'm afraid that i have to correct u. IE Shouldn't be good on AD-casters. The sad truth is, rigth now it is the most effecktive item for nearly any ranged ad, ESPECIALLY ad-casters. The only exeptions are champions like Kog or Vayne with their massive AS-scaling, and corki/EZ with their Trinity synergy, and even on them it'S usually mandatory as 2nd or 3ed item. We have to face the truth, Ad-itemisation is flawed and crit-builts are mandatory for any adc right now. Thats basically what we complain about here.

WorgslargOct 4, 20141 votes

You missed the IMO. It may be superior in actual dps, but I cannot stand building it on ad casters, so i go for max CDR and triforce.

Sire HippingtonOct 4, 20146 votes

at the current point of adc-items, IE is the best tem for any marksman, it offers the same ad as BT for only ~400g more, while also increasing ur dps by 37.5% and increasing effektivity of aditional crit by 50%.

And Lucian always was a great IE user as his main burst comes from passive-procs, and those can crit

67chromeOct 4, 20142 votes

So imo, this item is super OP atm. While ADCs are a DPS dealing class, IE makes them more bursty. Why is that allowed?

Lich Bane allows burst champions notably strong auto-attacks, sustained damage, and tower pushing capabilities. Zhonya's Hourglass allows bursty champions to be tanky champions. Sunfire Cape lets tanky champions be sustained damage champions.

Not sure what you're getting at with a sustained damage class being capable of something besides just doing sustained damage. Everyone has some degree of tank, burst, and sustained damage in LoL. It's a matter of to what extent that defines each archetype as what they are.

And as far as critical strikes go - they aren't the same extent of bursty an actual burst caster's rotation is going to be.

The5lackerOct 4, 20142 votes

It doesn't make them bursty. There's no downtime. It raises their DPS. If they deal more damage per second, they take less seconds to kill you.

Kowe The EwokOct 4, 20142 votes

1.) Infinity Edge is an item that doesn't work on it's own. It's an item that is based on other items. Infinity edge is not strong. Infinity Edge COMBINED with other items is strong.

2.) As a direct result the player who uses it requires a lot of farm. For some reason many people prioritize top or mid over bot ganks lately. If you don't attack carries during their weakest 30 minutes of the game it's your own fault. There's a reason why different characters have different powerspikes at different times of the game. If you don't use your character's wisely you are the one to blame and you deserve to receive the bill..

3.) Carries are super squishy glass cannons. That's why you usually have up to 3 or even 4 people to protect them. They are useless on their own. Their power comes at a cost. If they required the same amount of protection as they do now and had less DPS would be useless. Look what most assassins can do even with bad farm and barely any items.

ProfDrDeathOct 5, 20142 votes

1.) Not exactly true. CURRENT IE is a really strong stand-alone item whose strength gets even more pronounced when combined with other items. IMO, IE should lose some of its Crit Chance and a little cost (300 gold and 5% Crit Chance). These 300 gold and 5% Crit Chance would then be added to PD, Shiv and possibly Youmuu's. Hence, the two-item powerspike would remain the same, while the one-item one would be diminished.

ZanphyraOct 4, 20142 votes

Yes... I think ADCs should have lower burst than other classes considering they are supposed to deal more damage over time than any other class.

NeoScoutOct 4, 20142 votes

not only that but makes itemization for marksman boring since going crit is the best build

Earl EulrichOct 5, 20142 votes

Spoiler alert for Quarterfinals EDG vs SHC

I think the last game of EDG vs SHC really offers some great insight on how goddamn broken the Crit-System currently is:

http://www.twitch.tv/riotgames/b/575055927

at ~5:01:00 when SHC finishes the last Game you can see very clearly how Tristana took half of Syndras HP with just one Crit, and then delt litteraly zero dmg with the next 3 Shots, just to blow of the other half of Syndras life with another crit. The difference between Crit and non-crit is just soo ridiculous. This really has to Change for Season 5.

LneacxOct 4, 20141 votes

IE's burst is kept in check by the fact that it's RNG based and not reliable. Crit bursts are arguably bad enough on a sustained DPS class; controllable burst would be even worse.