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Since Karma is getting some attention...

Tapu Fini··9 votes·1,194 views

Let's talk, about who she was, who she is, and where she can go.

For old Karma, her defining features were: -AoE heal which affected herself, allies, and minions -Enormous shield with enormous damage -Strong poke -Ability to bait people into fights and thrive at low health -Reliance on allies for full potential with Spirit Bond -Complete reliance on obtaining max CDR -Unhealthy reliance on "Shield Bombing" to provide damage -"Mage berserker" passive possibly too strong

Old Karma was confused with her role in the League. She wanted to be a burst mage, and she wanted to be a sustain support. She was very farm reliant, yet was not typically wanted mid because of her inability to full->zero somebody. As a support she was gold starved; support items like we have now did not exist, only items in the form of GP5 which didn't build into anything Karma typically wanted. She offered strong pushing power with her AoE (and minion compatible) sustain, and was relatively safe sitting behind a large shield. Unfortunately, her most reliable damage output abused the high AP attached to her mantra'd shield. Its ability to be cast on minions extended her poke range quite far, the only counterplay being to stay away from your own minions. Her Spirit Bond was a mixed deal; people either knew to run it over things, or had no clue what it was for. In lane it was next to impossible to utilize effectively, except as a slow and speed boost. Her passive led to her becoming quite a bit stronger when she was in danger. Her damage, heals, and shields went through the roof when she started getting low.

The defining features of new Karma are: -Strong poke -Low cooldown speed boost -Renewal offers strong sustain -Situational CC -Unhealthy reliance on R->Q for damage -Somewhat reliant on CDR -Passive offers the same thing other champions get built-in with abilities -Full combo fails to min-max

  • R->E replicated by items easily

New Karma's role is also on shaky foundation. She wants to be a burst mage, and she wants to support allies with shielding and movement speed. W->R->Q is undermined by the fact that so much of R->Q's damage is frontloaded, that the aftershock isn't typically worth staying in her W's fairly restrictive range. R->Q is preferred use of Mantra in most situations. R->W can swing a small skirmish in Karma's favor very quickly, but provides no team utility that isn't on W alone. R->E does provide good utility, but requires your team to be somewhat tightly grouped, which is unfavorable with the amount of AoE CC initiators currently popular in the meta. In addition, its full effect (minus the damage portion) can be replicated with Talisman of Ascension+Locket of the Iron Solari. Karma's passive is undoubtedly strong, as Mantra really makes her skills shine, but many champions get this reduced cooldown effect built into their abilities, not a large part of their kit dedicated to it.

In the future, I'd like to see Karma refocused into a mage capable of some form of healing again. It was fairly defining to be able to hurt enemies and heal your team at the same time, and it's very unfortunate she now only thinks of herself with this heal. Some of her R->Q damage needs to be shifted around, less on the initial burst, more on the aftershock. The "meaningful" play and counterplay with it is enemies either being stuck in it, our getting out, and it should actually be meaningful to get out of it. Her other Mantras should provide effects that can compete more with R->Q. Her shield's overall (shield+damage) scaling could see some improvement. R->W may be the door to provide an AoE regeneration effect of some sort, successfully landing the snare of an R->W could apply the initial heal to Karma and nearby allies. This approach makes all three mantras feel like they're making a meaningful impact on the tide of a fight.

Most of all, I'd like to see her passive replaced. Karma deserves a real passive, something to bind her kit together. Something to give her back that feeling of "Don't touch me or you're in for trouble," instead of the current Quantity>Quality feel. As of now it's a rush to dump your mantra into a fight, and try to get a second one up before the fight ends if you can. If she really just can't have two mantras, at least make her one, meaningful.

Tl;dr: Make her mantras (R->W & R->E especially) have more of an impact, or revert to two charges. Let R->W target+heal allies. Shift R->Q damage, less initially, more on the aftershock. Give her R->E better damage, possibly better shielding as well. Give her a real passive, not something other champions get mixed with normal abilities.

**Please, keep in mind this is opinionated, if you disagree, please let me know why in a constructive manner. I am in no way suggesting new Karma is bad, or that old Karma was better, only that more could be done to give her back some of her old feel without taking away too much of the new style. **

20 Comments

REKKI BEKKI 4 votes

Well as a long time Karma player, and fanboy of the old Kara (baby come back!) I would say that her mechanics were:

-Her passive. I mean, her name is KARMA! Her passive made sense, 'you hit me, i hit you back harder'. You could bait people like no other with this and that was one of the most fun parts of playing karma!

  • Her healing. She HAD some of the best team fight potential with this. In a the drop of a hat she could turn the tides of a fight, and knowing when to use her r-q combo was what made the great Karmas shine from the lesser ones.
  • Shield bombs! AH yes, R-E. Just remembering duking it out with another mage mid till you both had 100 hp, sudden death round. Just wait till a minion got close to them and BAM! Dead! and at level 5 with ~70 AP this could almost clear a whole wave! she was an amazing pusher!

New Karma, alas, has only a fraction of what the old karma has and I would love to see Mantra shield come back- wait no. I want the OLD karma back.

QWERTYSTOP1 votes

Well as a long time Karma player, and fanboy of the old Kara (baby come back!) I would say that her mechanics were:

-Her passive. I mean, her name is KARMA! Her passive made sense, 'you hit me, i hit you back harder'. You could bait people like no other with this and that was one of the most fun parts of playing karma!

  • Her healing. She HAD some of the best team fight potential with this. In a the drop of a hat she could turn the tides of a fight, and knowing when to use her r-q combo was what made the great Karmas shine from the lesser ones.
  • Shield bombs! AH yes, R-E. Just remembering duking it out with another mage mid till you both had 100 hp, sudden death round. Just wait till a minion got close to them and BAM! Dead! and at level 5 with ~70 AP this could almost clear a whole wave! she was an amazing pusher!

New Karma, alas, has only a fraction of what the old karma has and I would love to see Mantra shield come back- wait no. I want the OLD karma back.

Thing is, suddenly destroying the enemy with an ability that doesn't give them a real chance to avoid (completely avoiding long-range shieldbombs basically meant staying far enough away that they couldn't farm at all) isn't a good thing.

Tapu Fini2 votes

Exactly. It was an amazing feeling to bait an enemy into a fight they thought they could win, but using minions to force someone out isn't healthy gameplay. It was a fun mechanic, but had it only been castable on champions as it is now, I feel it would've been healthier. At least you would've had to be coming at Karma or her ally to feel that retaliation, not just her minions.

R->Q's heal was an amazing, substantial part of her kit, and probably the only part that could be considered healthy. Low range cone, not much healing unless her target (or self) was starting to get low on health. It forced her to get into the fray, take a risk to save a life, and to really capitalize on it she could get some damage on the enemy team at the same time.

littlemali1 votes

[...] using minions to force someone out isn't healthy gameplay. It was a fun mechanic, but had it only been castable on champions as it is now, I feel it would've been healthier. At least you would've had to be coming at Karma or her ally to feel that retaliation, not just her minions.

If you're talking about casting E on minons: she can still do that. (Like with old Karma, I can still use minions to tank a turret.) Its mantra-damage just isn't as strong anymore, afaik.

R->Q's heal was an amazing, substantial part of her kit, and probably the only part that could be considered healthy. Low range cone, not much healing unless her target (or self) was starting to get low on health. It forced her to get into the fray, take a risk to save a life, and to really capitalize on it she could get some damage on the enemy team at the same time.

Agreed. It was my most favoured ability on her.

Best Karma Ionia4 votes

Best Karma Ionia dropping in.

First, can I ask where you got the 'She's getting attention' at?

Second, MY opinion:

1: Karma was a much more unique and elegant champion pre rework. 2: She was a better mid lane, and was 100% able to 100-0 someone mid lane. At least 50-0, but very few mid lanes CAN 100-0 someone without being ahead. Most of the time you poke someone to 40-60% then all in; which is what Karma was queen at. People could not CS with her shield bomb on minions.

1: New Karma is broken, no excuses. Her mantra Q does INSANE damage, is aoe, zones, and is a massive slow. 2: People do not notice her contribution to games, and this is a problem. A typical team fight will be to mantra Q/E during the engage hitting as many as possible. Then you watch your carries like a hawk mother. You peel their assassin off with your snare and your trusty Rylais. You shield your carry to let them kite further and give them a healthy boost. You spam Q to keep enemies off your carries.

Ultimately I feel like she's still strong, but NOT better; she is more generic, and less interesting. But incredibly strong in both the support/mid roles.

Tapu Fini3 votes

Post of the day, stickied for a while at the top of the forums, mentioning her over-reliance on R->Q, with an actual red post for the first time in I don't know how long.

Her R->Q is definitely too strong right now, to the point it's choking out the other mantras in most situations. Too much of the damage is up front, and it does too much over all, kind of made her a one trick pony. She unfortunately lost so much of what made Karma, Karma, and this is what I'd like to change; get some of the old feel back without reverting to unhealthy reliance on a single Mantra to perform in a game.

FaerKhan3 votes

I hate new Karma simply because she's so much less interesting. Riot really homogenized her with the rework, and they're doing the same with most newer reworks as well. It doesn't help that they have no idea how to balance the game either.

Tapu Fini4 votes

I do agree. Karma needed work, but I don't feel they took her in the right direction. This is not to say she's bad now~ She's certainly viable, she's just had her power shifted, and her most unique elements removed in favor of poke.

snowpaw3602 votes

I don't see why they couldn't let you use your W on allies and with mantra to heal them, I think that simple change (being it heals more for having less hp) would buff support Karma a fair amount by being able to keep the front line alive in a team-fight or clutch heal your adc in lane. (she could also use a good skin)

Tapu Fini3 votes

There was supposed to be a Lunar Goddess skin for her but they scrapped it unfortunately =/

Mantra W healing an ally is a fantastic idea. It limits her to using W as peel/ult reduction (which I hope becomes a non-issue) or sustaining an ally. It brings meaningful choice to her kit, and could definitely save an ally, or on a bigger scale a teamfight.

QWERTYSTOP2 votes

I played Old Karma for... a month? before her rework was announced, and when it went through, decided to wait a while before playing her again so the old reflexes wouldn't mess me up. So here's a post with as little comparison of numbers (always subject to change) as possible, to talk more about the feel. Also less talk about how you could instagib people with Old Karma, because that wasn't a good thing for the game in general even if it was cool for the Karma player.

I would agree that some variation of her old hurt-me-I'll-hurt-you-more passive is called for - even if it's not necessarily the large stat boost from missing health (perhaps link it to getting some buff on being hit, instead of on being low health? Or enhanced damage specifically against people who have attacked Karma in the last X seconds? Link it more to the act of attacking Karma, so she can't just get poked, refuse to back for a while, maybe let the jungle hit her a bit, and then gib someone completely unrelated a minute later). Apart from how it was interesting to have a character who got power from taking damage but definitely wasn't a tank, it generally fit her close-to-moderate-range (excepting the massive shieldbombs, which I can see were definitely a problem even if they were fun to cast). Same for the percent-of-missing-health heal she has - she was a close-range mage (except shieldbombs) who could last a while (self-shields and mantra-fanspray), and was dangerous to get near, but all her defenses were active. If you CCed her she died like that <snap> but if you let her cast she could keep going. Like Vlad or Morde, except Vlad likes building health and Morde's shield lasts a while, so their tankiness can last through a silence. They're pretty close, though - short-range mages (less so for Vlad) who are tanky only so long as they can act.

Now her Q is longranged poke, her leash... would actually be pretty good if she still liked being in close-to-moderate range, but with her current longrange Q-focus setup it's usually just an anti-chase that takes too long to only stop one person, her shield is... not really sure (seems like you tried to keep the idea of shieldbombs while also weakening them too much to actually use) but I like the fact that it shields allies now instead of just damaging. So two of three active abilities feel pretty good (except that they don't work out in practice) for the old Karma feel, brushed up a bit to work better The Q really came out of nowhere relative to how she used to be - I think if it had remained close-range with a defensive R it could have worked (circle-slow centered on self, a bit like Liss? Could even have kept the fanspray graphic that way).

Mantra, on the other hand... being reduced to one charge brought it from resource-management to a lower-cooldown Heimer ult, except that where Heimer has two usable options depending on whether he wants burst or sustained damage, Karma basically always uses RQ. Having two charges meant you had to decide - save the second charge for when (whatever you used the first one on) is off cooldown, or use it on something else to do more RIGHT NOW. The fact that her old Mantras weren't all basically just MORE DAMAGE (some giving more than others) also meant there was more choice involved - now, almost all of what you get from Mantra is damage, Q gives the best damage, and since you only get one shot there's no choice of whether to use your second on a shieldbomb immediately or to wait for another Q, since Q will probably be up by the time you get another Mantra.

Her new passive is about even with Jayce's - it's entirely linked to one other ability in a way that means it could be entirely bundled up in that ability.

Tapu Fini5 votes

Her passive is definitely one of my biggest concerns. It offers absolutely nothing extra to her playstyle outside of making her want to blow as many spells as she can to get Mantra back up sooner.

Mantra being limited to one charge should have meant giving each Mantra a significantly better ability, with each having their own way to support and damage simultaneously. If you only get one Mantra, you should be torn on which to use, not 19/20 R->Q. It definitely defies her in the fray feel and the name "Karma" doesn't really make total sense now...

DaingerBT1 votes

I really enjoy the new Karma (have played her non-support since the rework) and her passive. I feel like each of her abilities has a great Mantra effect and if you're only using RQ then it's your playstyle dictating that. Her RQ is always going to be good, but her RW and RE have the potential to be so much better and I use them quite often.

The one thing I do wish they would give her is the ability to cast her R while CC'd. Mainly so I can get the heal off instantly once the CC wears off instead of missing my R (RWRWRW spam) or spending precious time assuring R has triggered as I die.

Tapu Fini3 votes

They do have their time and place, and the limited niches they have are good (R->W in particular), but in most situations they are not competitive with R->Q, and I'd like to see that change.

littlemali1 votes

I really enjoy the new Karma (have played her non-support since the rework) and her passive. I feel like each of her abilities has a great Mantra effect and if you're only using RQ then it's your playstyle dictating that. Her RQ is always going to be good, but her RW and RE have the potential to be so much better and I use them quite often.

I partly got used to new Karma. There are situations where she can shine. I like to play her as a tanky mage toplane. However, that was something old Karma could do as well. New top Karma has the range and damage to do well, old Karma most of all had the better and more reliable sustain.

What I regret, however: New Karma does not offer the strong support skills that old Karma had. She has become a ranged-poke/shield support similar to Lux. She lacks something to interact with her carry - yes, that was what made Karma unique and, imo, what not many seemed to have understood.

Mattarias1 votes

I mained old Karma. Her role was best as a solo laner, that focused on poking, baiting the enemy and living with that shield.

Honestly, she was waaay more unique and fun back then. Her minion-shield-bomb was like nothing else in the game. Hell, still isn't.

And she was much more unique in flavor as well. She was a matronly, wise, older woman who didn't give a DAMN about any bad guys.

....And as this is a Karma thread, I will repeat this till I die: Her old voice was a million times better. Give us Danielle McRae back!

The new VA sounds like she's rattling off a script. Poorly.

Tapu Fini5 votes

Big improvements could and should be made to her shield bomb. When it was something that could be used twice in fairly quick succession, I can understand why its large scaling and base damage was an issue, but with its larger cooldown you might get it off twice per fight if you miss no other skills, have plenty of CDR, and are still in a situation that it is a superior choice to R->Q or R->W. Hint: You're not.

We lost her personality in the change, and this bothers me almost as much as the neutering of her playstyle. She had serious class, and i loved that about her.

Mattarias3 votes

I know! Shield-bomb isn't anywhere near useful now, I feel like they just left it in for sentiment.

And yeah... I miss how much of a high-class dame she was. She commanded respect, and had that bit of sass to her too.

And that swagger. Mm, I can't recognize her as Karma anymore without her signature walking animation.

littlemali1 votes

I mained old Karma. Her role was best as a solo laner, that focused on poking, baiting the enemy and living with that shield.

I mained her as a support.

Shortly before her rework I also tried her mid, top, and jungle. She could play anywhere and I kinda regretted that I didn't try other lanes earlier. :)

Karma was the very first support I mained and mastered for any game and team set-up.

There was hardly anything an opponent could do due to the strong heal and shield. Even if they killed my ADC and were trying to tower dive me, I sometimes ended up with a kill myself and just healed myself again. Her W always worked with the people I played with. If they didn't know how to make use of it, I just adapted to that. In the worst case scenario i only used it myself to slow enemies or cast it on the first ally who was in range to get to a position faster.

Itemisation was no big problem. There was no athene's, so I built Frozen Heart. Gold: i bought at least 2 gold items. Could sell them later on. Riot added a lot of support items (Micael's, Frostfang, Ardent Censer...) that would've made Karma viable again, as they eliminated all problems Support Karma had according to her critics.

Not to mention: shortly after her rework, there was the hype of "League of Warmogs". Karma's old heal would've been OP at that time.

Honestly, she was waaay more unique and fun back then.

Agreed.

littlemali1 votes

I completely agree and share your opinion, Lavitz. Can't think of anything I would add so far.

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