Can we just get rid of the concept of "DPS Mage"

ChoGathsSon·Jul 2, 2015·31 votes·3,070 views

Because let's face it, when they are good...they're not just DPSing you. With AP itemization, they're BURSTING you while also DPSing tanks down instantly. Now I understand the argument that ADC's do this, too, and that's true. A full build ADC is going to kill any squishy target relatively quickly, too. But the difference here is AP's have access to itemization that grants them durability, utility, CDR and invulnerability - while still getting offense through their build pathing.

To prove my point, just look at Azir, Ryze and Cass. When they're good, they ARE DPSing but they're also 100-0ing teams with burst as well, so it's a stupid mixture because it's both burst and DPS and with AP itemization, they gain utility AND they become harder to kill.

68 Comments

IxozielJul 2, 201521 votes

ADCs don't just "dps you" with full items. They crit you for 800+ damage, over 1k with certain champs (draven, caitlyn passive). That's a lot more than most mages can you hit for. Mages also have cooldowns and most of them have to land their abilities, while an ADC just right clicks on you. In return ADCs have to deal with armor.

So what exactly do you think Cass should be able to do? if she has worse damage than an ADC, why not just go another ADC mid? Ryze, you have a point, and the new one needs to be "fixed" so he can't root you over and over and over again while destroying your entire team. Azir, eh. I havn't played against him enough to form a solid judgement, but I don't really see him "bursting anyone from 100%-0" unless he's disgustingly fed. Have you seen what a disgustingly fed Draven can do? What about a fed Kalista?

You say mages "have access to itemization that grants them durability, utility, cdr, and invulnerability." Durability and invulnerability are the same thing, but I'll grant you one of those. utility? Where? Supports and tanks have most of the utility items, Ii'm not really sure what you're talking about. Maybe rylais? But ADCS have access to phage / botrk / many more movement speed items. Also, saying their items are better because they give CDR is silly because adcs don't care about CDR for the most part. That's like mages whining that adcs have access to itemization that gives them attackspeed. Furthermore, adcs can easily get CDR if they want it via black cleaver (which is a great item), ghostblade, and / or blue boots / runes. Except they get berserkers, because they don't really care about cdr.

So, now we've narrowed it down to just durability (i hope). Why do they need more durability? Because if they can't one shot you, then they will die immediately to the ADC without durability. That doesn't sound like a very fun game... it sounds like a very boring fps. Better hope the rocket launcher hits them, or you will die to machine gun during reloading. Where are the pistols, the SMGs, the shotguns?

Diananmen SquareJul 2, 20152 votes

Utility? Where?

item 3165 item 3116 item 3001 , besides the CC they might provide.

Earl EulrichJul 2, 20158 votes

they pay for their cc with a lack of mobility...most immobile adcs also add meaningfull cc.

Devack The HolyJul 2, 20151 votes

Not to mention ADCs and Tanks have access to item 3139 and Tenacity, as well as a crapton more and cheaper damage options until next patch.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 2, 20154 votes

Azir has his ult for CC, and his E for mobility. Both are good.

MLDzXnRRRJul 2, 201510 votes

What about the DPS marksman class that deals mainly burst dmg - why not get rid of critical strike - I don't know how getting over 1k crits is considered sustained dmg - you 2 shot people without armor...

Champion SkinJul 2, 20154 votes

A Draven Crit with this build item 3072 item 3035 item 3006 item 3031 item 3046 item 3102 would deal

110 base AD + 200 AD = 310 AD

310 X 3.35 = 1038 (Oh and Draven will also have 1.77 attack speed with his W)

Though of course if Draven go all out on bursting people item 3072 item 3031 item 3137 item 3508 item 3035 item 3006 item 2140

110 base AD + 385 AD = 495 AD

495 X 3.35 = 1658 damage per crit with spinning axes (which would also heal draven for 663 HP if the target had 0 armor)

AsphodelNextJul 2, 20153 votes

Against a level 18 Caitlyn with armor seals, with 91 armor(59.15 after LW), you actually deal 652 damage, or for all out Draven, 1042 damage. She has 1884 health, so it takes you 2-3 shots to kill her, if you crit every time. Each crit is worth a bit less than twice a normal attack(185% vs 335%), so if you don't crit on half your shots, then it'll take you around 3-5 shots.

Against a level 18 Riven, with her shield up(and a full 400 AD build without armor) you deal around the same damage, but she has ~2600 equivalent health, so it takes you 3-4 shots if you crit all the time, or 5-7 if you don't. Keep in mind that you can only fire off 3 spinning axes before you have to go and catch one of them, and it takes 2 seconds for an axe to land.

Against a level 18 6 stack Cho'gath, who built no armor and all health/MR item 3265 item 3027 item 3065 item 3001 item 3102 item 3091 , you have to chew through about 4600 health(if he's not building armor, he's gotta be building something...), so it'll take you about 5-8 shots if you crit every time(1 in 32 to 1 in 256 chance), or 8 to 12 if you don't.

CindikleAug 19, 20151 votes

You're also forgetting mastieres and runes.

FistOfSharkieshaJul 2, 20155 votes

Azir is the only one above with mobility. ADCs have the ability to decimate turrets in second and are never gated by mana issues. Ryze and Cass both have pathetic early games.

ChoGathsSonJul 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Azir is the only one above with mobility. ADCs have the ability to decimate turrets in second and are never gated by mana issues. Ryze and Cass both have pathetic early games.

Ryze and Cass just farm up Tear and their mana troubles are gone. And you're on crack if you think they're weak early.

FistOfSharkieshaJul 2, 20159 votes

Cass can't even kill you without running oom without a tear..

psychogamesAug 19, 20151 votes

ok your funny cass with a tear is just asking to run out of mana she is gauntlet visage rabadonn spell vamp zonya

Drunk RummateJul 2, 20155 votes

First of all, there's very little difference between CDR and Attack Speed if you're comparing a DPS mage to a DPS marksman. Auto attacks are the primary damage of an AD marksman so attack speed is essentially just lowering the cooldown on their primary damage ability.

And durability? ADCs get lifesteal, dps mages do not. That's an extremely large benefit. Mages are also far more limited by mana than ADCs as a general rule. In the lategame this may not appear to matter as much, but after a big teamfight a mage has to recall because they're low on hp and mana, while a marksman will have half their mana left and get all their hp back by autoing a jungle camp 5 times allowing them to stay on the map and pressure an objective.

So sure, if you think Zhonyas is better durability than a bloodthirster then maybe you're right. Personally I'd rather have an AP bloodthirster in my mage build and give up the active though.

And I'm not sure what you mean by utility. If you're referring to aspects of their kit (Azir ult, for example) then that's not really comparable because ADCs all have different kits anyways. You can't really compare an Azir ult to a Graves or a Caitlyn ult (and hell, let's just mention the utility in a Kalista ult) because they both have completely different purposes and both offer different kinds of utility. If you're talking about itemization utility, dps mages have none of that because they don't get to build support items like twin shadows and banner of command.

Sir YamazukiJul 2, 20154 votes

Don't forget they don't only offer damage with their kits unlike some adcs who offer nothing much but damage.

FastAsHeckJul 2, 20154 votes

Karthus item 3070

the one true dps mage

badoogaJul 2, 20151 votes

Buy item 3285 on him and he actually does a shit-ton of damage with only one Q

Buttigieg 2020Jul 2, 20151 votes

Swain ?

FastAsHeckJul 3, 20151 votes

yeah sort of

Champion SkinJul 2, 20154 votes

Like Draven Crits doesn't burst a squishy.... And life steal can make ADC's pretty darn tanky if you aren't able to burst them...

and AD have some pretty good defensive items as well like item 3139 and item 3156 and of course the items that work on everyone item 3102 item 3026

Ryze has no mobility and is useless if his passive isn't stacked

Cassiopeia have no damage if she misses her Q/W (good luck avoid ADC auto attacks lol... and what part of Cassiopeias kit is bursty... pretty much all she has is E spam and DoTS)

Yes Azir Q can be kind of Bursty... however then again Azir usually builds like a burst mage... which usually leaves him rather squishy and vulnerable if you are able to get to him

psychogamesAug 19, 20151 votes

only good item shown is Maw take aram King's advice I trash the others daily

WalkingInACircleJul 2, 20152 votes

Let me ask you, while utility certainly exists inside the AP itemization, which of these DPS mages are actually building it?

Because, usually you're looking at item 3165 item 3285 item 3089 item 3135 And they're almost pure damage. The Luden's MS certainly exist in an adc's build too. The cdr doesn't, but adc's do get lifesteal.

The only item I think you're thinking of is item 3157 .

ChoGathsSonJul 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Let me ask you, while utility certainly exists inside the AP itemization, which of these DPS mages are actually building it?

Because, usually you're looking at And they're almost pure damage. The Luden's MS certainly exist in an adc's build too. The cdr doesn't, but adc's do get lifesteal.

The only item I think you're thinking of is .

The grievous wounds from Morello's is utility. Rylai's offers slows, which is usually a core item on Cass. Ryze and Azir don't need it because they have utility in their kits already with slows/CC/Displacement (which oh, by the way, does a fuck ton of damage).

Azir, as an example, doesn't typically need to build anything outside of Zhonyas for durability because of how long range he is. But Ryze and Cass will build items like Rylais, liandrys, Zhonays and Roa that offer durability.

WalkingInACircleJul 2, 20153 votes

True, there is the morello's passive. But you don't think that a Cass that builds Rylai's pays for it in her total damage output?

Theres two arguments I see here. One is about DPS mages playing APC and doing just as much or more damage than adc's - or at least with more upfront burst - while maintaining the utility a mage possesses. The other is simply that AP itemization is overpowered, facilitating damage growth on par with AD items while also given extra utility/defense.

For DPS mages, they do possess utility, but you can't tell me adc's don't as well. Or mobility or self peel. Vayne, Sivir, Ashe, Graves, Tristana, they all have kits with things in them besides damage. They're much more frequently mobile while mages have more cc.

I take exception to the example of Azir, because in my opinion he's overpowered. Yes, he's too good at everything and he doesn't have any weakness besides the skill people keep telling me it takes to play him.

But as to the AP items, I don't think they keep up with adc dps unless you build the pure damage ones. Stacking the dps multiplers of damage, attack speed, crit, and %armor pen is how adc's damage can explode as their gold does, while defenses can only multiply armor and hp and maybe some attack speed slow. Mages can get AP, %mpen, procs, and CDR. But only if they're building these damage focused AP items.

lead pencilJul 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Let me ask you, while utility certainly exists inside the AP itemization, which of these DPS mages are actually building it?

Because, usually you're looking at And they're almost pure damage. The Luden's MS certainly exist in an adc's build too. The cdr doesn't, but adc's do get lifesteal.

The only item I think you're thinking of is .

Ryze, Vlad, & Rumble items?

psychogamesJul 2, 20152 votes

If your scared of apc characters don't build to tank mr or adc as normal ,play light mr and armor and max your health and regen for in and out battles. righteous glory is a big help to get in and out.warmog then add your thornmail to counter there ad

ChoGathsSonJul 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If your scared of apc characters don't build to tank mr or adc as normal ,play light mr and armor and max your health and regen for in and out battles. righteous glory is a big help to get in and out.warmog then add your thornmail to counter there ad

What? Are you suggesting I should just not build MR and I'm magically going to avoid their focus somehow? Please clarify this statement, that can't really be what you're suggesting.

IcyPepperJul 2, 20151 votes

I think he said light mr and build health too?

Warmog, I can understand. Health regen helps in between trades or if you need to back out of a fight for a breather (bigger health pool means more regen).

ChoGathsSonJul 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think he said light mr and build health too?

Warmog, I can understand. Health regen helps in between trades or if you need to back out of a fight for a breather (bigger health pool means more regen).

HP stacking only works mid game, late game botrk + liandrys (which is common on Cass) shreds that. Not to mention Azir still DPS's you, Ryze as well. You NEED MR against these champions..HEAVY MR at that.

IcyPepperJul 2, 20151 votes

Ugh, I had the misfortune of playing against Ryze before the snare nerf... speaking of which, I play AI with my friends just to chillax without stress of pvp (you know, the rage and the salt and blah blah blah) and he is the only bot I actually fear. Silver 4 (not great, but hey whatever) and I'm legitimately afraid of Ryze since his changes. Annie bot has nothing on him.

Anyway, back to what you're talking about, this is why I don't mid. Fuck Cass (not OP, just annoying to meh D:)

ChoGathsSonJul 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ugh, I had the misfortune of playing against Ryze before the snare nerf... speaking of which, I play AI with my friends just to chillax without stress of pvp (you know, the rage and the salt and blah blah blah) and he is the only bot I actually fear. Silver 4 (not great, but hey whatever) and I'm legitimately afraid of Ryze since his changes. Annie bot has nothing on him.

Anyway, back to what you're talking about, this is why I don't mid. Fuck Cass (not OP, just annoying to meh D:)

no she's op, so is ryze. He's still OP.

IcyPepperJul 2, 20151 votes

I'm not sure about Snake Lady ~~but I fucking hate Ryze he feels OP even if he isn't which I am unsure of~~

I mean they're totally balanced and stuff and are completely fun and fair to lane against!

sweats as Rito's gun is lowered from my forehead

I Miss CannonJul 2, 20151 votes

Cassiopeia is everything but not balanced. I've once laned against a pretty bad one, was 70 Cs ahead, still couldn't win a fight.

Rundus1Jul 2, 20151 votes

no she's op, so is ryze. He's still OP.

Not really. She needs to get ahead to snowball or she needs a team to forget about her. She has very little mobility (1 speed up now) and is extremely susceptible to cc and kiting, as she needs to poison someone to destroy them. Her ult makes this easier, but most assassins can take her down without too much of a hassle, she's just got the DPS to be good in the current meta, but still often can't get ahead because the very tanks she melts can cc her for the opposing mid laner. High DPS doesn't mean OP, it just means that she'll excel in a drawn out fight while mid laners like Katarina or Leblanc will be happier to wait out her ult and go in for the insta-burst before running out (unless kata gets a kill, then she just bursts some more). Cass struggles against a lot of mid laners and is very mana hungry early plus suffers from being extremely easy to gank if she ever gets to pushing her lane. Her power is mostly in team fights, and if your team cant win those, split-pushing or getting some picks is always a good option.

Zair UmbrasJul 2, 20151 votes

Liandry's is garbage. End of story.

Earl EulrichJul 2, 20152 votes

they don´t get any more durabilty or utility than adcs do if they choose to go down that path...and they have to do a lot more than just rightclicking in most cases. So why don´t you just protest against crit-itemization first and then come back to complain about a less dominant subclass...

Mandang0Jul 2, 20152 votes

Many important details are left out of this definitely unbiased anecdote. Did the "tank" build well? How fed is the mage? Does the problem extend beyond the 3 cherry picked examples? The "when they're good" conditional is just a sneaky way to make this a No True Scotsman argument. "Oh, well if your anecdote disagrees with my anecdote, it must be because the mages you're seeing are all bad" Aside from obviously being a weak argument, it's one that can easily be turned back on the person who makes it: "if teams are getting burst down by a mage, they're bad for grouping/building mobafire builds/etc".

I'll agree Riot does a poor job of making mages pay for their utility, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that a mage whose kit actually focuses on damage instead is doing too much damage (Karthus, for instance). I also find it funny that people still balk at the suggestion of running anything but ADC in the duo lane, even though mages have these advantages you've mentioned over ADC. Surely there's either something big these mages are missing or players are too stuck in their ways to adopt an actually good idea. As for Riot's failure to correctly budget power in kits, especially when it's distributed across many different strengths: that's true in all roles, just look at CertainlyT's champions and most of the new releases.

Doctor DymentJul 2, 20152 votes

To me, Swain is the only real damage per second mage. And I think he is pretty balanced as he is.

Malix FarwinJul 2, 20151 votes

Burst is a type of dps. It is in no way shape or form different from dps.

ChoGathsSonJul 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mti4hIjj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-02T06:15:27.975+0000)

Burst is a type of dps. It is in no way shape or form different from dps.

When I say DPS mages, I refer to the "machine gun" style of play. Azir is similar to this style of play, too. But he's not intended to be as bursty as he is, or at least he wasn't.

ChidesJul 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mti4hIjj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-02T06:15:27.975+0000)

Burst is a type of dps. It is in no way shape or form different from dps.

DPS is associated with the consistent damage that can be done over a longer amount of time, unlike the burst type of damage that usually is done over a couple of seconds with a delay before it can be done again.

ABlueQuakerJul 2, 20151 votes

DPS Mages are meant to be a Magic Damage equivalent of AD Carries. The issue with this, though, is that unlike AD Carries they don't deal their primary damage through Auto-Attacks (with some exceptions). They can potentially hit you with 3/4 abilities simultaneously. AD Carries don't actually have that option. For the most part AD Carry abilities revolve around 1. Poking, 2. Mobility and 3. finishing someone off.

Sustained AP DPS is basically - "fire as many abilities as I can as often as I can".

Cass and Karthus are probably the closest things to balanced DPS mages in the game because they have no real burst. They can deal upfront damage, but a lot of their kit revolves around quickly using their spam abilities then immediately repositioning.

The only real difference between, say, Ashe and Cassiopeia is that Riot intentionally wants Cass's ult to scale with her itemization, and Ashe's ultimate to not scale with her itemization.

Xerath, Orianna and Azir, for example, aren't DPS mages - they're mages with low cooldown compound-burst (one ability doesn't hurt much, but 2-3 at once will do anywhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of someone's health if they've not been completely shut down).

Champion SkinJul 2, 20154 votes

Well there is also another huge difference between Cassiopeia and Ashe... you can avoid Cassiopeias damage if you avoid her Q/W while avoiding auto attacks is generally impossible And there is also the fact with mana... Ashe will never run out of auto attacks however Cassiopeia can run out of mana (can be a big deal if you are helping to kill baron and then the enemy team comes or in some situation like that where you had to use a lot of mana or haven't been able to back in a while)

And ADC's have more ways to scale... which is why Cassiopeia has such a crazy passive

ADC's have AD X Crit X AS (which all amplify each other and make the ADC's late game incredibly strong when they have a good amount of all those three things)

While mages only have AP X CDR (And on Cassiopeia CDR doesn't even do anything for her DPS)

frickenbrickJul 2, 20151 votes

Finally someone brings karthus in with karthus his cooldown on Q is around 1 second with that someone can wall of pain(SLOWS AND DROPS MR) and then anywhere from 1 to 5q will quickly kill just about anything if they are by themselves.

2 Qs will kill most ADC because they are separated from their team Causing the double damage effect.

I once soloed Baron with a 3/4th build karthus.

then you have his AOE which once you have enough regen you can run it almost constantly or when its off you have its passive giving mana for each kill.

If a so if they go eqwq and kill the ADC would that be considered bursted?

to me i think it would.

Sire HippingtonJul 2, 20152 votes

yea, cause ad-carrys never have damage skills, a graves will add Q+R to his AAs for sigifican't burst... The few actuall dps-mages have not more skills to burst than an average adc, they rely on 1 main dps skill and maybe a second low cd skill or dot skill. Azir's Q is rather low damage/low cd, it is mostly for repositioning his soldiers, E is not much damage either and rarly used agressivly outside lane. If he lands all skills, he can burst, but it's risky for him to do so, as he bows all defensiv tools while dashing into his enemies. It'S like a tris jumping in in an enemy, useing W+R for burst. Not saing Azir is the most balanced champ right now, but thats due his secific kit and tuneing, not because he's AP-dps.

Orianaa and xerath are no dps mages. They have some low cd abillities, but their dps gets nowhere close to an ADC or Cassio, and it is less reliable by beeing skillshot based.

TotalJerkJul 2, 20151 votes

AD assassins are the same shit, you know?

Psi21Jul 2, 20151 votes

AP champs other than Eccho, Katarina and Leblanc are the only ones that can burst. And getting some MR or in some cases HP just prevents that. You can blame Riot Balancing team for not having a clue about their champs.

They nerfed all other Burst mages Viegar, Zil, Arhi etc and further more removed DFG to provide a craptastic Item that provides situation damage that it too has been nerfed.

Riot has treated AP mages like garbage.

Tanky DPS is still the meta.

Old Man TeetoJul 2, 20151 votes

Graves Did someone say burst. Corki Hell, it's about time. Jayce The future seems brighter.

SammystormJul 2, 20151 votes

I don't understand why people say AP itemization is good because it really isn't. AD itemization is very good. AP itemization isn't. The fact that ap bruisers are basically non-existent (or if they are around it is due to innate tankyness and building mostly damage). AD items are much more diversified.