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"Unpopularity of monsters"

GigglesO··28 votes·1,704 views

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So we aren't going to talk about Kha'Zix, Fizz, and Maokai being a monster?

Not to say your Data is skewed, but a lot of the "unpopular" Champions also haven't been perceived as strong in the last two seasons... However champions like lee sin have been considered strong Since S2 after release, same with yasuo and his release. So isn't this sort of self serving data? You tend to keep popular champs popular by allowing them to have a larger power budget for no reason (because mobility isn't considered a large factor in power budget). As another example look at damage with yasuo/lee sin and mobility. They do as much damage as anyone else and have super high mobility... Meanwhile you have other champs like Skarner that have been seen as trash since (shortly after) his juggernaut update, and have both lower mobility/sticking power, and damage than either yasuo or lee sin.

Could we also get some data on winrate vs popularity over time? I know you have the data. Just look at Maoki's playrate in recent patches... I'm pretty sure thats because of perceived power (aka winrate) relating to popularity, not because hes actually any more exciting to play. Another big example of this is possibly Kassadin, until recently he hasn't started to see an increase in popularity because of perceived power. I'm pretty sure he hasn't seen any buffs since 5.24 and yet he is increasing in popularity for no real reason. I'm pretty sure its because champions that suppressed him got nerfed... You could give skarner a buff that would put him at 55% win rate and tomorrow he would be one of the most popular champions.

30 Comments

crzymdscntst7 votes

The more exotic and difficult the kit is too learn, the less people learn and stick with those kits. Nobody wants to learn a champ that won't be improved.

Hecarim is plenty popular when mobility is more readily available, but his mana costs have literally murdered him. He needs to be played well and start his snowball before he actually can do anything, something other champs wind up to quicker.

Aurelion Sol has a really high positioning skillcap, but a very low engagement factor. Congratulations, 75% of your kit is just moving around. People either can't play him well or don't enjoy the gameplay.

Skarner has been trashcanned for a while. They really never knew what to actually do with him and when they killed his AP and E sustain on top of that, it was just not fun anymore. Homogenized to obsolete. Doesn't fit the mold, so they cut off pieces until it fit and there was nothing left to enjoy heavily.

Rek'Sai sees gameplay, but ultimately is in that same category as Skarner, pieces cut off until they fit. They fixed her somewhat in many aspects, but something is still missing. Namely as a juggernaut with assassin abilities, she lacks the burst AND durability, being neither. Itemization is a big factor. Longer windup than others require for her mid-late game.

Rammus is Armortank. AD is meta, Rammus is meta. Armor Pen gets tweaked to make armor irrelevant, Rammus is not meta. It's a swing and miss over and over. He's still good, but needs the right enemy and/or team composition, thus, less picks. He's OK.

Kog relies on a tanky team with peel. Of course he's not popular unless he can output his dps reliably. He's otherwise too quick to squish.

Cho... ha. Ha. Ha. He's popular because health stacking is powerful. He's "meta", so picked when he's not banned, and it helps that he's got 2 heavy CC skills and an execute.

Anivia and Vel both have simple to execute kits as mid casters. It's very hit or miss. If mages can output dps, these two are just as qualified as any.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

Homogenized to obsolete. Doesn't fit the mold, so they cut off pieces until it fit and there was nothing left to enjoy heavily.

That is pretty much the definition of every non-cc, non-hyper mobile,non-hyper damage champion. Cut out pieces until they fit. If they are trash, just leave them be, we will just rework them eventually.

Rebonack6 votes

I was thinking more or less the same thing here.

The champs that are picked most often (barring the ones that are grossly over-tuned) are typically really high on agency. They can make picks. They can do cool things. They're self-sufficient and they get to set the pace of a fight because of the tools they have to play with.

Many of the 'monster' champs (meaning none of the HUMANOID monsters, sorry Kha) are honestly pretty simple. They have fairly straight forward, non-flashy kits that often have little in the way of agency. Kog is the quintessential example among Marksmen. He has zero capacity to make picks. He's massively depended on his team. He is, for the most part, played reactively rather than actively. He responds to other champions doing things and tries to make the best of the situation.

Players prefer active rather than reactive Marksmen. Just look at who's most consistently popular. Ez and Vayne are at the top of the list almost always regardless of how strong they are. Because teleporting around and shooting blasts everywhere is fun. Because tumbling around and pinning people to walls is cool.

Thefrostyviking5 votes

I also figure that rather than appearance it's about effectiveness.

Who wants to be a dragon that gets bent over by a hamster will a blowgun? And get's punished hardly for any kind of poor positioning?

It feels easier to just pick the little girl with a teddybear and burn the dang hamster outa existence, they won't be making sassy comment about your champ choice with half their team gone and a tibber ontop of the remaining half.

And why pick the lich with a global ultimate if it means getting bent over by pretty much any assassin,diver and most other mages out there when you can pick the prophet of space aids and spellshields? You´ll be perfectly safe as everyone else around dies.

Heck, your jungler will love you as long as you time your ulti for their ganks.

And why pick kog maw who get's harshly punished for positioning mistakes who also needs a team to peel for him when you can pick Twitch,Vayne or Trist and be self reliant with barely less damage?

So yeah, rather than appearances i think the bigger question is definitely a risk/rewards/effectiveness one, a rather old and very important question that always gets asked.

Most monster type's have a deficiency in exactly the risk/reward/effectiveness departments, that more than anything is why they aren't popular.

KoggyStyle3 votes

Gnar Kindred (lel) Janna Lulu Sona Tristana Twitch

and for the circle jerkYasuo

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

GigglesO6 votes

This community loves circlejerking.

GigglesO3 votes

I also realized that they also left out malphite... is Mr Rock also not a monster?

Ralanr4 votes

Course not. He’s a mountain.

GigglesO2 votes

[sg-miss-fortune]

DorkunedAuras3 votes

All of the listed "Monsters" are not humanoid in shape, Something that Fizz, Kha'Zix, and Maokai are.

Chembaron Yamada3 votes

Rammus kinda is humanoid, though.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

True, though he at least spends a lot of time being quadrupedal or in a ball

AirKingNeo3 votes

Like Riot would ever end their bias against bruisers with this balance team.

Good post though. Never considered it, but good thing crowdsourcing exists.

x Royal Solo x2 votes

That guy was full of shit.

GigglesO3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chemtech Ionian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mtTRFgwA,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-11-19T04:20:16.722+0000)

That guy was full of shit.

The more I look for data correlation to prove that perceived power and popularity are one in the same the more I find it... just look at twitch ha ha his popularity was trash, and hes on his way towards lee sin level popularity right now.

x Royal Solo x2 votes

good point [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

GigglesO2 votes

[sg-jinx]

Just trying to show people that riot is actually biased.

MoldyCheese11 votes

fizz, asol, hec, rammus, anivia have all been seen as strong "recently"

GigglesO4 votes

If you look rammus's popularity it has also increased over just the last few patches.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/david.novati#!/vizhome/ClairvoyanceBlogOverTime-NovaAsterix/OverTimeClairvoyanceBlog

Not just that, but he was quite popular in 6.05 before his nerfs in 6.07...

I'd have to do some more digging on the rest, but I believe there is probably a correlation between perceived power and popularity that isn't shown.

Edit: Also if we look at champions like Jayce we can also see a similar correlation between his popularity and perceived power. He wasn't really played back in 6.05, but look at those spikes between 6.18 and 6.21.

The steam life1 votes

Does this mans actually think yasuo is busted. You can say he’s annoying sure but I’m pretty sure he currently has the sixth lowest win rate in the game 46%. That’s not even considering the fact that people like ryze are below him who are really strong just really hard to play.

GigglesO2 votes

No, I think his kit gives more freedoms than other champions, especially in the mobility department which is why I think he is consistently popular. He does as much damage as any other champion, with being able to prevent damage (shield+windwall), while still being mobile. His kit is rewarding to play while having minimal downsides.

The steam life1 votes

But it clearly has downsides or he wouldn’t have a 46% winrate champ. You could literally make anything sound op if you put it like that. Aatrox when he’s fed can outheal two champions damaging him has an aoe knock up and dash and long range poke. He also has a passive that gives him a free revive whenever he dies all while building full ad. See what I mean. Yas has downsides he has no reliable escape or engage and he is squishy but also needs to be right next to his target to deal damage he needs to be in melee range for at least 2 seconds to kill a target unless he’s fed. He has no on demand cc to stop people from reacting when he dives in and if the enemy engages on you you need at least 3 seconds before you can ult and that’s if you hit anything. I could go on but that’s the just of it.

GigglesO2 votes

But it clearly has downsides or he wouldn’t have a 46% winrate champ

Riot already stated the more players that try and play a champion the lower the winrate...

Aatrox when he’s fed

K, you can use the "when hes fed" argument for almost any champion. The meme with yasuo is that he feeds gets his two items and is still powerful late.

He has no on demand cc to stop people from reacting when he dives in

He doesn't need it when he can just out-mobility the enemy and block damage with windwall.

you need at least 3 seconds before you can ult

Good yasuo's build up their Q on minions so they can dive in and start the fight right away...

if you hit anything

Thats why they made the dash spin, you literally can't miss it if you can dash to them.

I could go on but that’s the just of it.

Please do try and convince me that his mobility and damage is weaker than other champions, its amusing that you think having damage locked behind play knowledge, and skill timings means hes somehow weaker than others.

The steam life1 votes

Ahhh a local idiot in his natural habitat assuming all champs with high play rates have low win rates like twitch with his 51 Ahri with her 49 and more. Yep mobility is so incredibly op I wish something that stunned champs or something existed OMG they could call it cc. you clearly don’t know how to counter an arguement with actual knowledge and I don’t feel like being sad at humanity today so I’m just gonna leave. It’s not about his level of mobility or damage it’s the way that it’s applied that makes him bad right now.

GigglesO3 votes

Champions that aren't blatantly over powered and have a high playrate tend to have a lower winrate. If playrate determined winrate alone any champion that has enough of a playrate would auto win games by your logic.

The steam life1 votes

Ok so let my try one last time is ahri blatently overpowered, becuase she has a similar pickrate and a way better win rate (3%). To your second point??? If you have a higher play rate you have a LOWER win rate but generally that stops at a certain point as most high play rate (yasuo level) champs tend to have (48%)+ win rates. Unless they are excessively hard in which case they are ryze. It doesnt make sense to me that you see so many other high play rate champs (which is your arguement for his low win rate) that have much better winrates and say thats the norm for all high play rate champs.

He's really not strong, like at all. The best you can ask for is to say hes balanced.

GigglesO1 votes

You can't use current winrate data because it is in preseasons, so there are alot of champions that are just blatantly over powered right now, which is leading to their high playrate.

My point with champions like yasuo, ahri and lee are that they empirically have more in their kits. They have the damage of champions like xearth, and and still have mobility in their kits. Riot has previously stated that a lot of losses are caused by someone having low experience on a champion, and that more champions playing any given champ are likely to give that champion a lower winrate.

Just take a look at sedj 2-3 seasons ago, they nerfed her for having a 55% winrate even though she only had 1% playerbase. Her players were all extremely good on her.

The steam life1 votes

Yes I can use preaseason winrates because by now most winrates have stabilized and the few op ones are not affecting the winrate of one or two characters. The champs you think are innately stronger do have strengths but for those strengths they have weaknesses. Ahri has really low damage output lee becomes an r bot late game and yas has to stay in point blank range of every cc in the game to get his damage off. Inherently comparing lee sin to xerath based on mobility is just wrong. Xerath has more reliable cc way longer range and safety and doesn’t have to rely on diving the enemy which is why lee sin needs that mobility in the first place.

I can understand the dislike of highly mobile champs (I really dislike Ahri) but I know she is currently balanced and has a price she pays for her safety.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

"So we aren't going to talk about Kha'Zix, Fizz, and Maokai being a monster?" Looks like they're referring to non-humanoid champions specifically.

Meep Man1 votes

I wouldn't call Fizz and Maokai monsters. Kha'Zix though... yeah. He's a monster.

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