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So what is the counter play to Graves?

Bronze II Yasuo ··47 votes·3,813 views

?

Ever since his rework this champion has been completely bland non interactive to play against and frustrating. He doesn't even need to gank a single lane because he scales so well and two shots everyone late game, "oh but his winrate goes down late game so wait" wait for what late game doesn't even exist and his win rate still hovers close to that 50% even if you get there. He can get nearly 150+ armor and magic resistance without building a single fucking resistance item, like who thought that would be a genius idea?

He stays way too healthy in the jungle because he can infinity kite meanwhile Kindred needed to be gutted having a mediocre 42% win rate early due to weak clear. He scales way too well with life steal items for a tank (yes I'm going to call this piece of shit a tank) and other items like PD giving him too much dueling potential. Right now he can piratically 1v1 and outpace almost any jungler early with the exception of maybe Kha'Zix and Rengar. Don't even get my started with lethality build.

This champion ever since his rework has been completely disgusting and unfun to play against meanwhile Riot balance team is taking an extended vacation thinking Graves is healthy for this game? Lmao what a joke.

Revert his rework it's been a complete failure ever since his rework he's been problematic, regardless if he's "meta".

/End Rant and Salt.

56 Comments

Swarovsko12 votes

God I'm so fucking tired of banning him every fucking game.

Troy2426215 votes

Ban phase

Melledoneus17 votes

It doesn't always work pls help

LordGeovanni1 votes

though an option it solves nothing.

Anonagon5 votes

"revert this champion's rework because I think he's unbalanced"

yeah no

also, don't put the word "counterplay" in your title if you aren't going to actually talk about it. If you cared about counterplay you'd primarily discuss things like his Q timing and the mechanics of his auto attacks. If this thread were actually about counterplay you'd come to the conclusion that Graves actually has much more room for counterplay now than he did pre-rework, even if that counterplay is obfuscated by his power level.

Bronze II Yasuo 20 votes

Can't discuss counterplay if there isn't any.

Anonagon19 votes

counterplay to Graves before rework: ??? Don't walk near him if he has QR up at all??????

counterplay to Graves post-rework: stay away from Q detonation stay clear of walls if possible stay behind minions to block his autos keep him at range to take less damage from his autos

even if this counterplay doesn't feel relevant because of his strength, it is still a significant amount of counterplay that didn't exist before his rework

If you want the boy nerfed just say that, don't go "muh terrible rework no counterplay revert revert revert"

DepressedAhri2 votes

Fighting as a team is also terrible for Graves

Bronze II Yasuo 6 votes

This isn't counter play this is play conservatively. It's like saying "Dodge blitz hook" that isn't counter play that's playing conservatively the counter play (Making a play to counter) is punishing him if he misses the hook because it has a long cool down.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Counterplay is being able to lessen a champions power, if you play against them properly.

What Anon posted, is counterplay. What you seem to want, is graves to be nerfed since you refuse to use his current counterplay

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

Cry about it if you want, but dont say there isnt any counterplay.

His autos can be blocked. His autos at max range do less damage. His Q detonation gives you ample time to react. Walk out of his W's radius. His E takes about 10 autos to actually stack up to max resists, and thats only if he has enough AS and/or CDR. He has the shortest range of any ranged champ, tied with Urgot.

But no - you dont actually care about counterplay, or dont want to talk about his numbers despite his counterplay. You just want to complain.

Bârd4 votes

Deny burst by dodging his Q and R.

Deny DPS by having someone bodyblock his autos.

Deny his utility by not standing in his W.

Burst him down before he can stack up his E.

Abuse his short range.

CC him to death.

An Undead brat1 votes

You can't dodge someting that instakills you.

Deny DPS by letting him dealing DPS - wut?

He kills you before you can leave it and it still works as a zoning tool - utility kept.

Burst someone who's basically a tank, ok.

Counterpick, not counterplay.

Counterpick, not counterplay.

Bârd1 votes

Uh, yes you can? It only damages you if it hits you, and the first stage of Q doesn't really do that much damage. Ever heard of sidestepping? Flash?

It's not a difficult concept, dude. If Graves is coming at someone who doesn't want to get hit, have someone who doesn't mind getting hit stand between them. A tank. A tower. Your minions.

If he kills you before you leave the W, you didn't leave fast enough.

Graves is NOT tanky at the beginning of a fight. Half of his durability comes from E stacks, which he doesn't have many of early into a fight, and the rest comes from lifesteal, which can be countered by Nomicon or Executioners. Tankier than the average marksman? Yeah. Still not actually durable.

It may be "counter pick", but considering that Graves has 425 attack range... it's not too unlikely that you will have people who can outrange him, even if you aren't picking specifically to do that.

Again, it's technically "counter pick", but again, you almost definately have something to deal with this. Even if, by some series of unfortunate events, you don't have a single CC on your team, you can still do this. Your 0 CC support is probably running Exhaust. Your 0 CC mid can buy Rylais, GLP, or Gunblade. Your 0 CC jungler can buy stalkers. Your 0 CC AD could (technically) buy a frozen mallet or IBG. Top can go IBG or Mallet (Rylais/GLP/Gunblade if they are AP). Honestly though, if you draft a comp with 0 CC you deserve to lose.

Dominick Destine3 votes

Slow compared to Lee.

Only has two shots in his gun.

One of the lowest range dashes in the game.

Low range on auto.

These are many weaknesses..... as Evelynn I tend to have an easy time vs. Graves precisely because of the previous things; No (solid) escape mechanism, terrible at chasing, slow moving.

Jaygo411 votes

I'll remember to just run to your side of the jungle on your first clear then be an item ahead of you at like 10 minutes next time i play Graves

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

I'll remember to just run to your side of the jungle on your first clear then be an item ahead of you at like 10 minutes next time i play Graves

Many have tried and failed to find me, leaving them smack dab in the middle of the enemy jungle [my jungle] where I (often) ward.

I look forward to the free kill , or at bare minimum, watching you waste your time.

OurLestrade2 votes

It's funny because when anyone else plays him he does insane damage, yet when I play him no matter what I build I do next to nothing :P

Samflash32 votes

A cigar...because he'll never get one.

macromite2 votes

have enough burst to one shot him? playing a tank? build full damage anyway, that's the only way to play. Fuckin hate this game some days. damage is chief and its main counter is also damage.

Ok sure but why1 votes

full crit garen is best

Joxcab1 votes

Die first before he can kill you.

Bronze II Yasuo 1 votes

instructions unclear, you can kill what's already dead

DepressedAhri1 votes

Teamfights

franchise76761 votes

play rammus and shit on him

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

Nothing. Problem? Too bad,Riot give no fucks about frustrating champions.

Credit Ninja1 votes

My plan is to kill him before he sees me.

#Evelynn things

A Bad Nasus1 votes

kill him before he kills you

Il Virtuóso1 votes

Don't leave the fountain. LMAO jokes aside, I think he's pretty ok, you have many options to deal with him (explained by others below) and sincerely he's absolutely not the champion which, right now, has counterplay problems (Rengar: stay with your team and hope they save you/never be alone. Daaamn, so fun to tactically outplay, uh? Leblanc's laning phase is still stupid as hell thanks to her ability to harrass and get away instantly. Fizz's ult feels nothing like a skillshot at all, if he aims correctly there's no damn way for you to dodge it. et cetera...).

The Taco Kat1 votes

Shoutout to my old main ADC. Damn, I miss playing old Graves. Arguably had more fun on him than old Katarina. All of the champions I have the highest mastery on are getting reworked or have been reworked, so expect something for Lucian and Gangplank (again) I guess. I really wanna get Graves back and not be "hurr durr 200 armor, 140 magic resist 2400 hp with 380 AD and slow as shit autos." Doesn't feel like the same champion to me. At least new Kat feels a little similar to the old one, but she is broken as all hell too.

New Tool Album1 votes

hard cc

Zuwuse1 votes

Sounds like kindred is getting the Azir treatment

ZerglingOne1 votes

Slows really mess him up since they affect his dash speed as well.

A strong slow can actually prevent him from taking any actions at all other than dashing slowly for upwards of a full second.

Nasus W is great in particular because not only does it slow his dash, it also slows both his attack speed and reload time.

I don't like playing against him either, but to say he has no counterplay is to ignore the facts above.

Kats Pajamas1 votes

Dodge his ult. His 80% likely to whiff it anyway.

QuickenedBlade1 votes

Don't go melee or ranged range as a melee champ. Graves' passive is actually "I do double damage to melees".

Castanean1 votes

Well, since the title mentioned counterplay... Yeah. He does, he does have some.

Avoid getting between Graves and a wall. Stay at longer ranges, if you can. And then there's that one, really interesting bit of counterplay he has: Get something... Or someone inbetween you and Graves. Minions, summons, jungle monsters or... Y'know... Your tank.

I mean, Graves can still be frustrating to play against, I wont deny that, but "Too much damage" isn't exactly a "Graves Only" problem at the moment.

Flitchee1 votes

If you really want to know? Don't play like a dumbass. Have you ever seen a Graves do fuck all if hes behind? No? me neither. You know how he gets ahead? people don't respect his damage, and you know what? he cant physically GET it off on you in an reliable way, he can't reliably hit both procs of his q unless YOU let him do it. Sure his ult has damage, and is easy enough to land, and yes his auto attacks are strong, but you know what? to get full effectiveness out of his kit, he needs to be in essentially melee range. And how many times to you actually fight graves long enough for his e stacks to get capped? I'm actually curious because he either dies before he can, or he kills you befor5e he needs them. There is very seldom i time i've ever gotten capped stacks without having some to begin with.

notmebuthim1 votes

item 3047

GULAG 4 U1 votes

So I was playing master Yi yesterday. I dodge his ult, but hey. Who gives a fuck. Crits twice with a zeal I believe.

Went ahead and asked KRadvice.

"Don't get critted." GG.

Spicy Rice1 votes

no wonder koreans are so good.

They figured out the secret to getting the old dodge back

Wyrmblade1 votes

Go back in time and convince CertainlyT to be the reincarnation of Hitler instead of a champion designer so he'll do less damage to this game.

Sintama1 votes

The actual counterplay is don't let him get ahead. Once he has his DD and PD he's a God. Team effort to slow him down in the jungle.

SwordOfWar1 votes

Kill him

Shrek Luigi1 votes

He was designed around having a really strong former-half of a match while not having as much to offer in the latter-half--when the teamfights start happening, because all he can do is chuck physical AOEs and dance around. If he doesn't get too many kills off and your team comp has a stronger mid-to-lategame presence then you'll probably come out ahead.

He also gets a lot of free resistances and can itemize HP pretty easily for a champ who does so much damage, so one needs to pay attention to/capitalize off of what what he is/isn't building.

Melledoneus1 votes

I'm going to start out by saying fuck Graves.

That being said... the real counterplay to him is your team. He has to dash in to access his damage and resistances, but that puts him in a spot where your team can burst him down. If your team can't burst him down, you lose.

Teslyn1 votes

https://m.popkey.co/961bb4/xMZpO.gif

Teslyn1 votes

but i imagine this is you http://data.whicdn.com/images/26642744/original.gif

Snowplosion1 votes

You can technically dodge three out of four of his abilities and his auto's. He's also one of the one ranged champions which can get kited.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

If a tank stands in front of him, his autos actually can't hit people.

They count as mini-skillshots. It's cheesy and hilarious.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Ever since his rework this champion has been completely bland non interactive to play against and frustrating.

You don't appear to know what non-interactive means.

He doesn't even need to gank a single lane because he scales so well and two shots everyone late game,

Graves' scaling is mediocre at best late game. He has to build nearly full damage to be effective and has to get up close to deal damage, and his autos can be body blocked. He's fairly easy to kill late game, and laughably easy for almost any skirmisher, diver, or juggernaut to duel late game.

"oh but his winrate goes down late game so wait" wait for what late game doesn't even exist and his win rate still hovers close to that 50% even if you get there.

Normally it's even lower than that, it just so happens that lethality is too strong right now. And you said he scales very well. A 49% win rate isn't scaling well. Master Yi has a 56% win rate late game. Vayne 59%. They're actual late game champions.

He can get nearly 150+ armor and magic resistance without building a single fucking resistance item, like who thought that would be a genius idea?

He also can't deal a great deal of damage without building it. Whereas champions like Jax, Master Yi, or Darius have a lot of damage built into their kit and can build some durability to keep themselves alive, Graves gets some durability in his kit so he can build mostly damage items and succeed.

He stays way too healthy in the jungle because he can infinity kite meanwhile Kindred needed to be gutted having a mediocre 42% win rate early due to weak clear.

His clear is a problem yes, and he is certainly OP. Kindred was just as OP or more-so when she was nerfed, and was even more frustrating because her good early game let her transition into a formidable late game. She also has more utility than Graves.

He scales way too well with life steal items for a tank (yes I'm going to call this piece of shit a tank)

You'd be stupid to do so my friend.

and other items like PD giving him too much dueling potential. Right now he can piratically 1v1 and outpace almost any jungler early with the exception of maybe Kha'Zix and Rengar. Don't even get my started with lethality build.

Early game he's a strong duelist. Without a lead he's laughable mid to late game. The problem is that right now he's too good at getting that lead.

This champion ever since his rework has been completely disgusting and unfun to play against meanwhile Riot balance team is taking an extended vacation thinking Graves is healthy for this game? Lmao what a joke.

He was fine for a little while until the lethality buffs.

Revert his rework it's been a complete failure ever since his rework he's been problematic, regardless if he's "meta".

/End Rant and Salt.

I can't help but notice that you didn't actually manage to address how Graves has no counterplay. It's likely because you're not very intelligent and are using it as a buzzword to make your post seem more legitimate than it is, when Graves does in fact have counterplay, more than most marksmen.

So first of all, Graves is the only champion in the game whose auto attacks can be body blocked by someone else. Late game his DPS and survivability fall off a bit, leaving him with his burst, leaving his autos to be body blocked by your tank. Furthermore, his attack speed is fixed and he has a reload mechanic, meaning you know how many shots he can take before he blows his load.

His Q also has counterplay, being that it has a delay for the fallback damage (the bulk of the damage), and of course he only gets the instant fallback if it hits a wall, meaning you can counter it with your positioning as well.

His W has the counterplay of walking out of it, though this is admittedly less notable than the previous two abilities.

His E is just a short-ranged dash that gives him a durability steroid. There's not much counterplay because it doesn't do much. You can still stop him mid dash obviously.

His ult is a long range relatively narrow skill shot that you can avoid by dodging it or, if he's firing it at your front line, not positioning in the blast cone.

Graves is OP right now, but to claim that he has no counterplay when his autos can literally be body blocked by a minion is stupid.

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