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83 Comments

Eedat41 votes

Not even close. You people must not remember DFG

Deathfire Grasp

+120 ability power +10% cooldown reduction

Active Unique: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum health in magic damage and applies the debuff, Doom. Doom amplifies all magic damage that champion takes by 20% for 4 seconds. 90 second cooldown (750 range).

PPPPPPPPPPPP27022 votes

{quoted}

Not even close. You people must not remember DFG +10% cooldown reduction Unique: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum health in magic damage and applies the debuff, Doom. Doom amplifies all magic damage that champion takes by 20% for 4 seconds. 90 second cooldown (750 range).

we can go even further. Old DFG did 25% current HP plus 3% per 100 bonus AP as a straight up nuke while building out of an item that gave extra gold per second.

Earl Eulrich15 votes

and still the game felt a lot less bursty back when dfg was a thing...

Catastrop18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0fhxd2kd,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-01-26T13:50:15.680+0000)

and still the game felt a lot less bursty back when dfg was a thing...

That's because only AP champions(and Garen) built it, whereas anyone can use keystones.

Acolyte of Steel5 votes

RiP DFGaren, that was fun af. I miss it. :/

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

That's because only AP champions(and Garen) built it, whereas anyone can use keystones.

DFGaren was never a thing really.

Sdiojdsi3 votes

{quoted}

DFGaren was never a thing really.

I hit Diamond 4 with DFGaren before it was removed. If you look in the old boards you can probably find my old thread.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I hit Diamond 4 with DFGaren before it was removed. If you look in the old boards you can probably find my old thread.

Lol

Dominick Destine4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0fhxd2kd,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-01-26T13:50:15.680+0000)

and still the game felt a lot less bursty back when dfg was a thing...

No it didn't.

You were either too newb to realize how bad it was, or are looking at it with rose-tinted glasses.

LordGeovanni2 votes

in those old days only one class absolutely ripped everyone apart and that was assassins with will of aincents spell vamp and top line ap items so you couldnt kill them with out 4-5 people either. mages had longer cooldown spells and less damage on their abilites back then and magic resist was stronger and every champion even assassins and adcs had to get some defensive items. crit was more random and less ill hit crit you for sure 5/6 attacks. armor hp and magicresist were stronger back then but it was never a tank meta suppriseingly tank items gets nerfed and its tank meta. because when they got nerfed to a point where they died before even getting in range and some of the changes were buffed back people want the feeling of shreading everything while standing in one place with their safe ranged champion again. riot seems no never count in range as power or lack there of when balanceing champions.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

in those old days only one class absolutely ripped everyone apart and that was assassins with will of aincents spell vamp and top line ap items so you couldnt kill them with out 4-5 people either. mages had longer cooldown spells and less damage on their abilites back then and magic resist was stronger and every champion even assassins and adcs had to get some defensive items. crit was more random and less ill hit crit you for sure 5/6 attacks. armor hp and magicresist were stronger back then but it was never a tank meta suppriseingly tank items gets nerfed and its tank meta. because when they got nerfed to a point where they died before even getting in range and some of the changes were buffed back people want the feeling of shreading everything while standing in one place with their safe ranged champion again. riot seems no never count in range as power or lack there of when balanceing champions.

Lol assassins were trash untila period in season three were a handful (namely Zed, Leblanc, Ahri, Kha'zix, Katarina) became good before getting nerfed to the gutter because they were actually able to compete with ADCs. And then assassins were never heard from again until today, when we got an assassin "rework" aka gutting across the board.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Akali Ahri Fizz Leblanc Evelynn Kassadin Katarina Khazix Rengar Shaco Talon Zed are the assassins of the game from back then and all of them were strong toxic insta gib champions after they were nefed to be reasonable and not steam roll everything which people were mad about because you remove a price from the castle and put him in stables and he wil wonder why it happend to him and remember life when he was prince since then there has been ekko who did the same thing those champions did in their prime arhi 's e got nerfed for bonus damage like dfg then got buffs because it wasnt the same (of course it isnt the same she was nerfed because it was bad for the game)

Pierce The Veal1 votes

Eve wasn't strong. Ahri became atrong for like 2 months. Akali got strong for like a month before being gutted, never saw pro play. Katarina became strong for a month then was nerfed. Wait a second!

We're talking about pre season 3, before season 3! Guess what! None of those champions were strong in season 2. Zed was considered absolute shit until they release black cleaver and Botrk. Talon was seen in a single pro game then instantly nerfed! Fizz was always cancer but never saw real pro play! Leblanc, well, for the longest time she was win lane lose game, only around season 4 did that change. Rango had periods of being op then trash. NONE OF THEM. And I mean NONE OF THEM. Were strong before season 3.

MadManApocalypse2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0fhxd2kd,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-01-26T13:50:15.680+0000)

and still the game felt a lot less bursty back when dfg was a thing...

Also so many new chars can abuse crit and triforce to hell. so +More damaeg

Covert Ops Gnar2 votes

{quoted}

we can go even further. Old DFG did 25% current HP plus 3% per 100 bonus AP as a straight up nuke while building out of an item that gave extra gold per second.

It was a necessary item at the time, now outdated.

Flawless Fetus3 votes

that's not even old dfg, though. That's new dfg. lol.

deadlychuck7 votes

You know it's funny. It use to be that champions needed that kind of single target burst item to 100-0 someone. Now they can do it without the extra 15% max HP and 20% damage buff.

So, yeah... maybe DFG was bad, but the game on average has caught up to the same burst potential. So what now? Remove all of the champions who can burst as hard as burst mages with DFG? I wouldn't complain, i'm just asking.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

You know it's funny. It use to be that champions needed that kind of single target burst item to 100-0 someone. Now they can do it without the extra 15% max HP and 20% damage buff.

So, yeah... maybe DFG was bad, but the game on average has caught up to the same burst potential. So what now? Remove all of the champions who can burst as hard as burst mages with DFG? I wouldn't complain, i'm just asking.

Back then champions that could burst were few and far between. They gave up a lot to be able to do it. Now everyone and their mother can burst. Might as well call adc's damage method Burst Per Second (BPS).

Elewd2 votes

its really strange to think this because now every champ is so bursty and slowly they have all started to do this, but back then the only burst champs were like, Annie Leblanc Syndra and Veigar. and now even Anivia does a lot of burst damage while back then it was mostly all over time.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

its really strange to think this because now every champ is so bursty and slowly they have all started to do this, but back then the only burst champs were like, Annie Leblanc Syndra and Veigar. and now even Anivia does a lot of burst damage while back then it was mostly all over time.

Pretty much.

DrCyanide5 votes

Deals 15% of target champion's maximum health in magic damage.

15% of a 2000 HP target = 300 magic damage.

Thunderlords Decree at level 18 deals 180 (+30% bonus AD) (+10% AP) on a 15 second cooldown. Nearly 2/3rds the burst without any AP/AD on a 15 second cooldown instead of a 90 second one.

Doom amplifies all magic damage that champion takes by 20% for 4 seconds.

This one is harder to exactly match up, but we're still scarier than you'd think

Sourcery: +2% spell damage. Double Edged Sword: +5% damage dealt Assassin: +2% increased damage to champions (when not near allies).

So we're at +9% damage dealt to champions (roughly half of DFG's damage boost), but without any cooldown and without any target limitations.

We're at 2/3 the initial damage + 1/2 the damage boost without buying an item, and works for Physical and Magic damage. Yeah, it's not 100% there, but it also costs you 0 gold instead of 3100 gold, and it's available a lot more of the time.

WoonStruck2 votes

FYI, all damage amps are multiplicative.

Masteries+item 3001 surpasses DFG.

1.02 x 1.02 x 1.05 (or 1.075) x 1.10 = 1.202

As far as the reliable damage amps go, you can surpass DFG by .2% (amplification, not total damage)... While rushing a cheaper item. That also gives defense. And still offers CDR like DFG.

If you want to throw in merciless, 1.262

Vlad ult? 1.388.

Bounty Hunter instead of Double Edged Sword? 1.421.

So you can have a total of 42.1% bonus damage. More if there are any champions that still have self-damage amps, but if I recall, Fizz/Ahri were the only ones, and they were removed.

3TWarrior2 votes

swain is another but riot ruined him. without his snare, he can't catch an opponent out early to get gold advantage

his E can add up to 20% damage from all damage swain does to the target while his E is ticking

dunder kill1 votes

But then DFG isnt just 20% either if you factor in masteries.

So it actually doesnt surpass DFG. You cant claim extra multipliers for one and then intentionally leave them out of the other.

In fact DFG would even stack with Abyssal sooooooooooo...........

WoonStruck1 votes

Abyssal didn't work the same way, so it wouldn't apply.

All that DFG would get with the mastery system that was in place is 3% when below 50% HP, IIRC.

Also, you're undervaluing DFG's cooldown, as well as its duration.

Remember that Abyssal and the masteries mentioned are essentially always active.

dunder kill1 votes

Abyssal actually added more than the current +10% against squishy targets, but less against tanks

And there are way more old masteries that added damage than the ones you listed. Havoc, Double-edged Sword, Spellweaving, Arcane Blade, Archmage, etc.

Thats a far cry from the only 3% you mentioned

Duke Anax1 votes

For this argument. you can only factor in what was around when DFG was around though.

dunder kill1 votes

But there were good damage masteries at the time. item 3001 was also around at the time. Flat magic penetration essentailly increases damage by a % by removing defenses. The difference between the old Flat Magic pen and the current +% damage is that it normalized the damage between targets. Flat magic pen actually does more damage against squishies and less against tanks. The +% damage is in the inverse. It was changed so that it didnt give ludicrous damage against already squishy targets

Eedat2 votes

You're implying masteries like double edged sword didn't exist when DFG did, which they did.

Also, DFG amped damage from ALL magic sources, including others champions

DrCyanide3 votes

Double Edge Sword gave a 1.5%-2% damage boost before, depending on Melee or Ranged. Compared that to the 5% damage boost now, it has more than doubled (tripled for Ranged) the damage it provides.

Go ahead and look at the old Offensive Mastery Tree. You've got ways to get damage boosts, sure, but that 3% damage boost was the "keystone", not the half way point.

I'm also not sure how often DFG boosting allies magic damage actually came into play. Chances are you had a Tank/AD Fighter top, Tank/AD Fighter jungle, ADC, leaving the main sources of magic damage as the person buying DFG in the first place and maybe the support. Contrast that to the damage amplification constantly present and available to all of those positions due to the new masteries.

LordGeovanni3 votes

magic resist was actually a good option back then and top ap items didnt give 20% cdr while sustaining the spell spam item 3802 item 3165 there was only one top ap item that also had cdr and when building that path you also didnt have a top ap item that also provided as much health as tank items but with sustain for both hp and mp on it.

NodirjonSattarov8 votes

Annie with Protobelt (COULDN'T FIND AN IMAGE)

Packun Flower6 votes

Fuck protobelt. The damage from this item is like gaving a fucking second ultimate. So dumb.

NodirjonSattarov2 votes

It also makes immobile champions mobile. Can it clear thin walls?

Eedat14 votes

No and it really doesnt add mobility. The range is extremely short

NodirjonSattarov20 votes

Does it allow you to move from point A to point B faster than it would take you to walk?

Sraeg20136 votes

By a tenth of a flash and usually it only makes you miss the protobelt projectiles.

Eedat3 votes

There are different levels of mobility and protobelt's is almost none

MadManApocalypse3 votes

{quoted}

No and it really doesnt add mobility. The range is extremely short

It's enough to dodge an Ashe/Ez/Jinx ult...

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWÆ14 votes

It's not. It's been nerfed hard.

Old Protobelt (point-blank): 330 + 0.77 AP Current: 240 + 0.4 AP

FilDaFunk4 votes

And we will make bursty champions very bursty to compensate

RavenMagus3 votes

But now ADCs are being bursted too fast. I think the correct solution to that is give ADCs more damage.

asdf92403 votes

[deleted]

FilDaFunk2 votes

Supports have little effect during laning phase - they need more base damage, bigger shields and flashier active items.

MadManApocalypse3 votes

{quoted}

Supports have little effect during laning phase - they need more base damage, bigger shields and flashier active items.

The damage is so high that our damage creeper overseers' job became to tough to handle so he quit and we had to hire a new one.

3TWarrior1 votes

the new damage control person decided that all ratios were too high and decided to do away with them, reducing every champion's effectiveness and consequently, balancing most of the game

noxus is op2 votes

item 3632 WHAT IS THIS THING!!

duckarp2 votes

Don't ask and DO NOT BLINK!!

DarkRitual5 votes

Nexus Siege thingy.

TheFancySkeleton1 votes

[{quoted}](name=noxus is op,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0fhxd2kd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-26T04:08:11.895+0000)

item 3632 WHAT IS THIS THING!!

IT'S THE END TIMES. THE END TIMES HAVE COME!

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