Riot, I'll just over-simplify all the problems with Cassiopeia's Rework. "She's too brutish with E"

5G8Nri0B54··41 votes·4,643 views

"LOL I'M DOING 600 DAMAGE WITH EACH SHOT!" "AP Rambo" "She just spams E now" "3/4 of her kit are shit" "She is thematically inconsistent" "She zeroes in and focuses on a single target to duel them" "She is no longer a poison mage" "She's too much of a hyper-carry" "She fights with an AK-47" etc.

All of the above are criticisms of Cassiopeia, and to varying extent they are all true. But overall they all tie back down to just one simple fact. Your rework made her too brutish.

Does that mean she is a brawny tank like Sion? No. Everything is relative, but when you take a cowardly laid back noblewoman and give her an AK-47 to use as her primary method of attack, that's...wrong. She's a Poison Mage so her primary source of power should be her poison.

It SHOULDN'T be impactful and sudden like your typical nuker. She should be gradual, starting off weak but slowly growing deadlier after a while until the enemy has no choice but to GTFO before the poison becomes even more severe. There are hundreds of ways you could have achieved this.

Have the poison start off shitty, but gradually ramp up into something fierce, have the poison gradually eat away at the enemy's stats until they have the power equivalent of a champion several levels below what they actually are. Don't give me that "DoT is un-appreciated". It rang hollow when you followed it up with "she stepped on Brand's toes" and it rings hollow now.

Anyone can be balanced, anyone can be viable. That's the easy part. What you need to do with a rework is to create something that is FUN first. Something that fits the champion. Balancing can be done once you strike gold since it's a simple matter of throwing numbers in till the masses like it. You may disagree with this philosophy, but this is exactly what happened with 4.21 anyways. You threw in enough numbers until the masses started warming up to her gigantic set of numbers.

This rework is the LoL equivalent of taking Captain Janeway and turning her into a Salamander.

72 Comments

1st HanarSpectre6 votes

Cassiopeia has always been about spamming E, ever since day one of her release. I really don't understand why people are freaking out about it now.

5G8Nri0B5410 votes

Her poison wasn't shit and her Passive used to make sense too. She's always been about having poison that actually mattered and having a Passive that encouraged spamming. My how things can change!

1st HanarSpectre2 votes

{quoted}

Her poison wasn't shit and her Passive used to make sense too. My how things can change!

Miasma is better now, her Q is worse. Shit happens, it doesn't change the fact that your OP is pointlessly whining about her power being on E. HER POWER HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON E. Re read that again. Once more. And another time, maybe it'll stick this time. Cassiopeia HAS ALWAYS won her lane, gotten her kills and won her games by spamming E.

5G8Nri0B548 votes

Miasma is better now

k, you just wanted to talk out of your ass, gotcha, bye.

Next time feel free go to threads for champions you actually played k?

And hey, shit happens, you're right. Let's make more shit happen then.

1st HanarSpectre1 votes

{quoted}

k, you just wanted to talk out of your ass, gotcha, bye.

Next time feel free go to threads for champions you actually played k?

And hey, shit happens, you're right. Let's make more shit happen then.

You're obviously just a retarded whiner, good luck fighting the power man. Have fun QQing your lil' eyes out while failing to make any points whatsoever.

Tapu Fini9 votes

Miasma is better now

I sincerely hope you're joking.

Rebonack5 votes

Or in other words:

Poison is about subtle killing.

Cass' automatic fang launcher play style is the exact opposite of subtle.

Crazy idea: What if Cass' Ult were remade into a poison attack that works akin to Witch Doctor's Maledict? For those unaware, Maledict is a 12 second poison spell that has two types of damage, one that deals the usual lowish DPS and a second 'big tick' that triggers every 4 seconds and deals damage based on how much damage the target has taken since they got debuffed. At first the damage is pretty low, but suddenly it ramps up, giving the player time to go "Waaaaaaaaait for it!" 10 seconds later right before their target explodes.

Honestly, I think Cass would be the perfect fit for what's a really fun ability. Removing her hard CC would hurt, obviously, but it would open up a TON of kit power.

SouL1ess2 votes

If anything like Maledict were in League I would cry a literal river.

FUCK that thing.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Wait, I thought it was Tinker that people hated?

(never played much of DotA except the Warcraft 3 Custom Map...back in Reign of Chaos...)

SouL1ess1 votes

Tinker is only dangerous if you feed him to the point of Dagon 5 and Blink. Before that, you can deny him pretty well.

Maledict isn't OP as a skill. It's just that I die too many times to that thing, and every time I die, I have to see it coming too. Fuck it. It's like ignite, but the damage goes up almost exponentially.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Well Tinker isn't so much dangerous as much as he...completely changes the game whenever he gets picked.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Sounds really similar to my ramping poison idea, but instead locked into a single ultimate.

While I agree that it actually fits her far better than random Medusa powers, the consequence is that you just took out her sole form of self-defence. May be better if that was thrown into her Passive to work with all her Poisons or her Miasma instead.

Or if such an ultimate is given, then her E or some other ability turns into some effective self-peel ability.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Sounds really similar to my ramping poison idea, but instead locked into a single ultimate.

While I agree that it actually fits her far better than random Medusa powers, the consequence is that you just took out her sole form of self-defence. May be better if that was thrown into her Passive to work with all her Poisons or her Miasma instead.

Or if such an ultimate is given, then her E or some other ability turns into some effective self-peel ability.

Instead of a giant DOOM poison on her Ult you could tie it to her Innate, yeah.

Make her poison deal bonus damage based on the target's missing HP. That would be basically the same effect, but not nearly as flashy as tying it to an Ult.

Fluppets1 votes

You just described Zed's Ult.

Rebonack5 votes

E- Eyebite: Cass spits venom at a foe's face, removing their vision and applying poison damage for (duration) if they're hit.

E- Toxic Shock: Cass detonates her poison, dealing damage based on how many DoTs her foe is infected with and spreading them to nearby enemies.

E- Necrotic Venom: Cass' deadly poison cripples her foes, reducing their damage and applying a DoT for (duration).

Honestly there are a ton of neat poison effects that Cass could have that are more interesting than throwing teeth at people.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Yeah, that's the biggest puzzle with her design...

Although...

E- Eyebite: Cass spits venom at a foe's face

I don't know man...

I know ability names aren't always literal (Decimate), but still.

With that said you did inspire an idea.

What if her E, upon hitting a poisoned target, will debuff the target somehow, and said debuff will persist for as long as the target is poisoned? It can last for less than a second...or virtually be permanent.

MEMEME6701 votes

You seem to care a lot about Cassiopeia, (and be unable to express that in a constructive way, but I digress) so I'll be straight with you.

That idea is horrible. It took me less than one second of critical thinking to deduce "It's literally impossible for Riot to put this on a champion without making it the whole focus of their kit(which people wouldn't like, because they're looking for the Q+W style of play Cass.)

Like, how do you reasonably make the ability feel useful when it's only on someone for a couple seconds (such as in lane, perhaps) AND not make it OP when it's used on someone over a long period of time (such as in a teamfight).

Not to mention, something like this eats an ENORMOUS amount of power budget from a champion, and would require her to be nerfed if it was to be added and not be basically useless.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

How long it will be on an enemy will depend on the skills of both Cassiopeia and the enemy. Just as how Cassiopeia can constantly inflict multiple Q's on her enemy, it is up to the opponent to not let themselves be poisoned for that long. That's the entire point of poison, you want to inflict it, but you don't want to have it on you.

In lane, if it lasts "a couple seconds", that means either the opponent disengaged which is a success for Cassiopeia, or the Cassiopeia player was unable to land more Q's, which is a failure on her part. This should be happening regardless of what stage of rework she's in.

As for it's power budget, if it's too powerful or too weak it can easily be tweaked until it's balanced.

MEMEME6701 votes

You're ignoring what I said.

The ONLY way to balance the buff (ESPECIALLY in terms of power budget), is to make it unnoticable.

Something like....the debuffed unit does 1% less damage for every 1.5 seconds they're poisoned. (These are likely not balanced numbers, they are used to illustrate my point.)

Because, when a debuff is balanced numbers wise, it tends to feel very weak because it has little noticable impact. If you shield someone for 20% of their total life, you see a giant shield, you see it eat up the damage and you notice what it does.

If you have a debuff on someone that reduces their damage by 10%, you see relatively nothing different (the dude does 45 damage rather than 50...if you even see the exact number), and yet it's still extremely strong.

So, to say again, any balanced value for a debuff like that will feel useless, and there will be people like you (maybe including you, maybe not) complaining on the forums about it. So it would do nothing.

Samflash35 votes

{quoted} but when you take a cowardly laid back noblewoman and give her an AK-47 to use as her primary method of attack, that's...wrong.

Lol... I can't...

Rito please fix splash art to match this.Also, change her quotes to:

Cassiopeia It's not like I wanted to shoot you...baka

Cassiopeia Nvm. Smoke weed, hail Teemo!!!

Chromatic Eagle4 votes

Wait what happened to that thumbnail? I came here for the thumbnail.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

I have no idea. 0.0

I posted that thumbnail in a different thread on Cassiopeia, and when I created this thread it just...came with it but never appeared.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Well damn it man link the thumbnail then!

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Here knock yourself out.

**Fantasy Satisfaction: **

What she should be:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/2/25835/1954127-bmtdk_cv3_dasjhfalsudyflasdf.jpg

What Stashu gave us:

https://tvrecappersanonymous.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/jenny-rambo.jpg

(I like the black-yellow eyes from her new splash art though, and the scales of her snake tail too, but other than that...eh)

Canastus4 votes

Korean pro teams on OGN have been playing on 4.21 for quite some time now and they still haven't picked up Cassiopeia, not a single time.

There must be something seriously wrong with this rework if not even crazy numberchanges can make this champion work on the competitive stage.

Fluppets1 votes

Because there generally is no reason to pick an AP focused on single target damage over an AD focused on single target damage, the latter being able to kill turrets and having better repositioning tools (than Cassiopeia).

A team with Cass and an ADC basically has two carries to protect, so the other team either picks an AP mage with heavy CC and AoE, winning teamfights or an assassin guaranteeing a kill on either the ADC or Cassiopeia.

Basically in the pro scenes they will go for safe picks, Cassio has too many counters and hoops to jump through and it burdens your team until 250 stacks.

Cassio does very well in top lane in the current meta, but in the pro scene she would get destroyed by a lane swap.

Canastus3 votes

So in a sense this rework is just another failure at making her viable. She needs her AOE-poison damage back to become a proper pick, in her current state she'll never be able to melt an entire team like she used to.

Just imagine her old self with the QoL-changes, she'd be way better than what we got right now. We can't allow Stashu to simply sit back and consider his job done just because her winrate has gone up.

Fluppets2 votes

No, thats where you mistake the term viability. OGN is top-level play and at this level it's about the slightest min-maxing making a difference. Viability in OGN/LCS != Viability in Ranked Solo Queue. For Solo Queue she is viable, but not a safe pick into any team.

Riot doesn't design champions around OGN/LCS, they even explicitely said they expected Gnar not to get any pro play and they wouldnt mind that (He did get Pro play though).

I actually have melted entire teams with her in ranked, so never say never... especially if its just not true.

My Match history in Ranked SR with Cassiopeia

Especially take a look at my latest matches, because Ive been (re)-learning her off ranked and you can tell it paid off.

Her old self with the QoL-changes, I agree that would've been perfect and I agree wholeheartedly we cant let Stashu off the hook just yet.

I made a thread asking for feedback on Cass, Id appreciate your input there if you haven't seen it yet.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

I suspect that even if she becomes "viable", she'll never be used in serious games against teams who know what they're doing.

Part of why Ezreal was so popular back in his days wasn't just because he was really powerful, but also because of how monumentally untouchable he was. There was even an interview with one player who explained why he keeps picking Ezreal regardless of team comp, and it's because he can fit into anything due to his individuality. He was so safe he can survive regardless of his own team's comp and still do tons of damage.

Cassiopeia...pre or post rework, is incapable of such a feat. Also consider that Cassiopeia pre-rework was really unpopular anyways, and she was really strong in the perfect hands. However, what will you do against a competent team? And is the risk of playing someone like Cassiopeia worth playing over someone who is reliable and independant?

New Cassiopeia wasn't "buffed" or anything at all. People only consider this a buff because they only compared her to her initial state after the rework.

But screw all that noise. "Viable" and "Unviable" is a red herring. ANYTHING can easily be made viable if you throw enough shiny numbers at it. Stashu succeeded in pleasing the masses by jingling keys. Now he needs to please Cassiopeia players.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Keep in mind, that this is all an over-simplification...

It feels like people aren't great with details...and explanations...and arguments...

Thryale1 votes

Welcome to the young generation america my friend. :/

Fluppets1 votes

The people that matter, Riot employee's, are great with details and over-simplification puts them off.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Everything being done to handle the rework doesn't exactly reflect that as of late.

And nevertheless, a thread doesn't thrive for long if people people in forums aren't able to understand it's topic. And if there's anything I've learned after all this time...........................................a lot of people still don't understand that people are not angry about whether she is nerfed or not.

The Soulforged2 votes

Passive(Debilitating venom): Cassiopeia's poison debilitates her enemies, reducing their ap/ad by x%, and their armor/mr by x% when they are poisoned, stacking up every three seconds the target is poisoned up to three times.

Q: Brought back to pre-rework, with slightly higher ms boosts at higher ranks of the skill. W: Same as live E: Remove mana refunding, removed reduced cooldown when hitting a poisoned target. Cd reduced to 4/3.5/3/2.5/2 On hit, it provides an increase in stack cap on her passive up to six times. If the target has six stacks of poison for longer than 9/8.5/8/7.5/7 seconds, they are crippled. When crippled, targets become stunned for 0.5 seconds, and are slowed afterward by 40/52.5/65% for three seconds. On hit target takes 10% damage from more damage from poison stacking three times. R: Current ult

5G8Nri0B541 votes

It could work, although numbers could use some change.

For instance, with that new Passive shredding MR, bringing her Q back to pre-rework levels might be more dangerous than you think.

Mast3rMahan2 votes

YES! ANOTHER STAR TREK VOYAGER FAN!

lDontLiftIcarry2 votes

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-416-notes

so gutted it still makes me vomit in my mouth looking at this ratio nerfs.

Hexs Fortune2 votes

People will complain about anything. Cassio has always hd most of her damage come from her E. She had poison, yes, but by far her threat was the E spam wiping out entire teams

Sweetie Brella2 votes

While I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of building up power over time, I adamantly believe that her passive leaves so much to be desired.

I don't want to be rewarded for waiting, I want to be rewarded for making plays. Where else in the entire game are you rewarded for literally doing nothing? I believe we need a better progression of the power tiers of the passive at the very least, if not some different ways of stacking it up and not just "get stacks when X time elapses".

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Even if she keeps the "build up power over time"-thing...should it be attached to the concept of poisoning the enemy?

For one thing, that's ass-backwards. Rather than building up power, her poisoning the opponent should be shredding away at THEIR powers instead.

Lapis x32 votes

Riot probably wont touch Cassiopeia for a long time in the future (except for some little things like the fact that her old model is used during her death animation!). Yes, her playstyle has changed, but nothing we can say has effect, the rework will never be reverted back to happy fun time level 2 first blood Q E combos! Some people believed that Cassiopeia was always a poison mage and others thought she was all about that E spamming life. If only we could get a mix of the two, but I don't ever think they will raise her Q and W ratios :(

I know that Cassiopeia is strong. She can deal insane amounts of damage with her E, but I still feel like she is like a squishier ADC. Sure, she has a stun, but it is her ultimate, and conditional too.

I just wish she had a different passive honestly. I never liked the idea of stacking passives and it feels awfully strange that she jumps from 10% ap to 30%...why cant there be another break point, like around 400 stacks she gets 20% bonus AP?

And the Desperada skin, I wish they could revert it. I would be perfectly fine with Cass if Desperada didn't look so...stay at home motherly :p

5G8Nri0B544 votes
balbraaksel2 votes

What might could work is to make her poison do a long lasting debuff (40 seconds with timer refresh on poison?) that'll stack up every time a champion's poisoned, not actually doing anything to the champion the debuff's on but making the poison more and more powerful every time it's hit for as long as it stacks up.

Or make the stacks reduce by 50% every 40 seconds, that might would make more sense.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Yeah that could work, would emphasize the point that poison is supposed to stick rather than a temporary minor nuisance.

Jamnon1 votes

"Thanks for the feedback. We know what's really fun and we're going ahead with our design."

Thanks, Rito. Now I can play watch the buff.

Devourer1 votes

Cass is fine, early game her E is what she relies on but late game all of her abilities do insane damage and she is a monster, stop complaining over the tiny details.

5G8Nri0B546 votes

I love it. After all this time.

People like you who completely miss the point...are still completely missing the point.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Am I the only one who is wondering what the thumbnail is?

;-;

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Yeah I posted the entire thing in one of the posts above...or below...however this forum works...

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