So what about juggernauts?

Dormidon·Sep 10, 2017·15 votes·1,525 views

Last month I started noticing pattern - people prefer to see juggernauts as carry over classic adcs. At least they need to achieve their damage potential and have counter play. Most of them (especially ) don't even have their role in current game model. Their very existence is compromised by adc meta. What do you think can be done about that? I really want to hear out Rioters thoughts. Please tell me is this issue at least being discussed? Cuz I think the game is still moving in protect hyper-carry direction. P.S not complaining or asking for buffs please do not downvote.

37 Comments

DragonSheaSep 10, 20175 votes

Well Juggs are meant to have damage that rival's ADC's and skirmishers while also being tanky. But as a Yorick main I love when I am in the thick of things kicking ass while being a tough bastard to kill. I think that people are getting tired of the same old. Marksma- I mean ADC's being the dominant damage dealer/carry in the game, as well as skirmishers to a small extent

Most juggs are at the front or the middle of a group making, either mercing assassins or shredding tanks in the frontline. Speaking of frontline, juggs are meant to force people into a situation where A) they kill the jugg but give the enemy team an Ace, or B) try and make it to the backline and risk giving the jugg free reign to kill people. Juggs are all about forcing fighting into their favor and when that happens, it's game over for you and the thing is. Fights are gonna happen and they can make a nasty comeback if they get that favorable moment.

ModAcademy KaynSep 10, 20174 votes

people prefer to see juggernauts as carry over classic adcs.

One could also top that off to the Board's bias against ADCs, and a belief that anything is better.

AhristocatsSep 10, 20176 votes

Yeah you're right

i prefer playing against kog who builds almost full tank+presses W and achieving instantly his maximum power in his kit and Rightclick rather than Darius who's slow and takes so much time to reach his maximum power in his kit due to 5 stacks + huge delay on Q + worst attack speed in the game

it's so much better to play against kog, it's obvious that everybody will love playing against kog no bias hehe [zombie-brand-facepalm]

ModAcademy KaynSep 10, 20177 votes

builds almost full tank

Me and you must have different definitions for what building Tank means.

AhristocatsSep 10, 20173 votes

yeah, having 3k hp 100 mr 100 armor isn't building tank

seems legit

ProfDrDeathSep 10, 20171 votes

How in the world does a Kog get 3k HP without majorly losing effectiveness?

AhristocatsSep 10, 20173 votes

1914 hp at lvl 18, 750 hp from frozen mallet, 217 hp from runes

idk dude, you tell me how it's possible

Chembaron YamadaSep 10, 20171 votes

Frozen Mallet gives 700 hp, not 750.
Even if it would give 750 hp, 1914+750+217=2881.
His build path is definitely not a tank path.

AhristocatsSep 10, 20172 votes

he **BUILDS **tanky, it means he gets tankier, YES building hp armor and mr makes you tankier

and i'm sorry if i say 3k hp instead of 2k8 hp, i don't think it matters anyway

SalsonSep 10, 20172 votes

Man, all I'm seeing is too high base damage on W, and Botrk doing full hp% on ranged autos.

Nothing that can't be nerfed into some 48-49% winrate and let to rot until he finally gets a VGU.

Iota ThetaSep 10, 20171 votes

A Frozen Mallet, 110 armor with GA, and less than 100 MR with either Maw or Wit's End, does not mean one is building tank, especially since that much armor and MR is not usually out of the norm for adcs (the heavy shields make them not need defenses). Health is the only argument then, but other adcs have built that (Kindred, Quinn sometimes), but health is a universal stat and tanks don't have a monopoly on it. All that really means is that Kog built some bulk, but bulk without decent armor doesn't buy much more time.

Most tanks, juggs, and bruisers end up closer to 200 armor/MR, if not a good chunk over, and tanks and juggs can end up over 4k health.

AnagsSep 10, 20171 votes

His health is pretty effective when you add in the lifesteal he can build and benefit from. Let's not forget the items his teammates build specifically to make him more tanky as well.

Iota ThetaSep 10, 20171 votes

Well the only lifesteal he builds is BotRK, which a lot of adcs build. And similarly, items from teammates are not just for Kog'maw.

Ex) Rubick tried previously to show how tanky Kog with Frozen Malltet, GA, and Maw was with a video, however Taric was right next to them with W shield, locket, fotm, and Ardent Censer. If anything, it more showed the power of shields and Ardent, because Kog has always been able to do what he does (as far as instantly having his full power, he still has to ramp up the Rageblade stacks)

SalsonSep 10, 20174 votes

I think the Juggernaut buffs should wait until the current issues are fixed:

-Marksman are too strong numbers wise, if Ez and Twitch outjungling Lee aren't enough prof of that idk what is. Add here that they melt Juggernauts before their draintanky nature can kick in.... and well they suck.

-Supports are too strong in general, items are too cost effective and are being run by toplaners and junglers. The gold income is nothing to laugh about either, I see them matching and even overtaking the carry in pure item number.

-Some Juggernauts aren't exactly the shining example of healthy gameplay either. Darius and Illaoi rely on hitting their abilities and do deserve buffs, but stuff like Nasus and Garen only has one type of counterplay in the form of kiting, making them simply statcheck you if you can't do it for one reason or another.

Finally, should they actually get new tools to work with, they should get the ability to 'punch through' CC, the way Stormraider works, or say Orn/Fiora/Yasuo style W that lats them outplay it.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20171 votes

garen has plenty of counterplay in baiting his W so he can't ignore your CC, and until mid-late game standing in minions when he Es you makes him do really shitty damage.

nasus, just don't stand in his E and he can't shred your armor.

SalsonSep 10, 20172 votes

garen has plenty of counterplay in baiting his W so he can't ignore your CC, and until mid-late game standing in minions when he Es you makes him do really shitty damage.

You want to bait him with what exactly? His passive lets him borderline autowin trades with no effort, yet it's balanced because if he actually tries to regen from 30% hp your Jungler can come and just execute him. This is the part I consider unhealthy, he needs neither teamwork nor mechanics to do well, while you need your team to finish him off. In the end he does end up suffering in Plat+, because good luck abusing that stupid passive vs good junglers.

nasus, just don't stand in his E and he can't shred your armor.

He stat checks you eventually, and is almost unduelable on lvl 6. Your goal is again, coordinate with your jungler and learn how to execute a good tower dive, as Plat+ balance is based around his opponents being able to do that. Then you apply your lead on the map, while getting Bramble, as getting your botlane ahead equals winning the game.

These are just my 2 cents though, I don't consider either of the 2 OP. But the amount of effort and teamwork they need to do well compared to effort and teamwork needed to shut them down is unfair. So balancing them around Plat will make them shit in Diamond and broken in lower Elo.

Hayaishi2Sep 10, 20173 votes

Juggernaut role will never work because they are easy too counter. Doesn't matter if they have all the damage in the world if they can't force their enemy to fight them.

DragonSheaSep 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Juggernaut role will never work because they are easy too counter. Doesn't matter if they have all the damage in the world if they can't force their enemy to fight them.

I doubt that, It's really just an issue of riot focusing on mobility so much it's become a core part of league. I think that riot needs to got back to S1 to S3 and revise what made immobile champs strong and build on that.

Mens Hair ClubSep 10, 20171 votes

most of them can force fights pretty well, it's more that it's either too easy to disengage after that or their way to initiate ends with them slapping into the tank once people group.

more accurate imo to say that juggernauts should probably be able to bypass the tanks from time to time.

PePsiLemoNNSep 10, 20171 votes

And this is where that magic thing called ''teamwork'' comes into play and one of your teammates picks an engage champ

AhrisSep 10, 20173 votes

If anything mage's need buff. They got nerfed like every season and now they are just soo horrible to play. Would rather just pick an ad midlaner rather than ap midlaner now.

AirKingNeoSep 10, 20171 votes

Mages need buffs? Because they already dominate mid lane already?

DaNinadSep 10, 20171 votes

Neo what champs do you main just curious

AirKingNeoSep 10, 20171 votes

http://prntscr.com/gjj26f

DaNinadSep 10, 20171 votes

talon zed are the only ad mid laners over 50% win rate rn but ok

Jerry SeinfeIdSep 10, 20172 votes

I mean atleast an adc needs 2 extra people to be unkillable.

IDK where you got this info from but if it's these boards then just stop right there. Even if adc were all at 30% winrate someone would be bitching about them.

A melee that has a sustain + tankyness and is pretty much impossible to kill. A ranged that does about the same damage but dies as soon as you look at em.

let's say both have a heavy engage and janna in their team. Would you wanna face the unkillable behemot (he's got janna shields now too) or the glasscanon on life support.

ZT XperimentorSep 10, 20172 votes

Never seen a marksmen kite out a juggernaut huh?

Jerry SeinfeIdSep 10, 20171 votes

what does that have to do with what i said?

Yes it's possible for a marksman to beat a juggernaut by kiting. But it's also nearly impossible to survive once the juggernaut is in range.

Then there's also the factor of which adc vs which Juggernaut. but no matter what the adc is gonna be a glasscannon while the juggernaut is gonna be beefy af.

ZT XperimentorSep 10, 20171 votes

You claimed juggernauts are impossible to kill, but marksmen are fragile and only deal the same damage. Marksmen can easily out damage them thanks to critical hits and attack speed, and often have some cc of their own to self peel. Not to mention how much lifesteal they can get, which also stacks with criticals and attack speed, allowing them to draintank better than actual tanks. Why do you think assassins were so hated? Besides the obvious hypermobile insane damage playstyle that is. They practically became required since burst is what is needed to kill marksmen. Ever play a juggernaught when behind? Try it and tell me just how powerful you are in those 1v1s.

Jerry SeinfeIdSep 10, 20172 votes

first of all i'm comparing both in their prime: favourable meta + equal or ahead.

Ever tried playing adc when behind? yes ADC have about 4 different stats that synergise, however they also need atleast 3 of those to do any damage. try and tell me just how hard your "Burst per Second" is now.

This is why i say "about the same damage" considering ADC have bigger dps timeframes because well they're ranged. Adc often have some form of CC or peel or Mobility and will give up something in the other department (or not Vayne ). But most of the time it's not enough to stop an assassin/bruiser on their own. The only one i can think of that has Hard CC instantly is ashe and that's her ult.

However most bruisers in general have sticking power, High damage and slightly more burst than adc, atleast the modern ones. Accompanied with some decent CC (not always ofcourse) and beefyness comparable to tanks. Illaoi/darius healing a shit ton of their health back isn't that rare either, Nasus has built in LS, Garen & mundo have health regen, etc.

And it's not as if they don't have tools to get near you, illaoi pretty much forces you to fight her, Mundo has perma slow, Nasus has 99% slow, Darius has pull, Garen has tenacity+MS steroid.

But in the end both need their team, Juggernaut's to bring the fight to them and adc to protect them.

Draintanks are problematic 90% of the time, AFAIK WW is the only succesfull one up until now. The only reason adc are able to do that right now is because shields are fucking broken rn.

If riot balanced to game to force Juggernauts to be the main carries then why would i ever want to be squishy? why would i want to be a mage if they can just stack mr, why would i want to be ADC if the tanky guys are better anyway, why would i want to be an assassin if the main dps won't even feel me burst him.

Both Classes have flaws but let's not forget the juggernaut update and the meta that followed.

EDIT: Forgot to mention this. Can we fucking stop with this BS "ever been X when behind" argument? Yes your champ is thrash when behind big surprise maybe it's because the enemy is ahead?

ZT XperimentorSep 26, 20171 votes

Playing a marksmen from behind, yes plenty, and why I've called them stat-stick feast or famine champions. Have you tried playing a juggernaut from behind? You can't kill anything, can't tank anything either, often feeling like another minion with some crowd control.

"Adc often have some form of CC or peel or Mobility and will give up something in the other department" Hardly, and here's some examples . . . Ashe Sure she can't criticaly strike, but you're not going to notice that as much as her permaslow. Caitlyn Both her traps and net that connect, make her next attack against that target a headshot regardless of it's passive counter. Draven One of the few fair ones, as he has to stop moving and it's got a decent cast animation. Ezreal His blink automatically damages the closest enemy to where he is at landing. Graves A ranged aoe slow that also gimps enemy vision. Jhin Slow traps and a long ranged root, he has to stop to cast them, but they both have greater reach than most auto-attacks. Jinx Her traps can root up-to three enemy champions and can be cast on the move. Kalista Probably the most awkward as it requires her partner to be around and competently coordinated with her. Lucian Low cooldown dash that activates his double tap passive. MissFortune Another fair one, an aoe damaging slow but she has to stop to cast it. Quinn A ranged vision denial skillshot, and an unavoidable gap opener; her ultimate continues giving her massive speed until she takes damage, allowing her to function like teemo for hit and runs. Sivir Has a banshee's veil on command, which can be done on the move, and restores mana if she blocks something. Tristana A long ranged leap that resets if she's involved with a kill, and her ultimate is some of the best peel in the game. Twitch His invisibility gives him more movement speed, but can be delayed if he takes damage prior to it finishing the cast animation, which also can be done on the move. Xayah A conditional root that's fairly easy for her setup, as her ultimate is intangibility on the move.

"Draintanks are problematic 90% of the time, AFAIK WW is the only succesfull one up until now. The only reason adc are able to do that right now is because shields are fucking broken rn." Not so much, some other champions have had era of abusing this power, at least they were thankfuly short lived. But marksmen have something that makes it oh so apparent and potentially oppressive, lifesteal. item 3153 item 3812 item 3156 item 3139 item 3072 (and the mastery Warlord's Bloodlust) Lifesteal scales off three things; attack speed, attack damage, and critical hits. All of which marksmen often build some combination of (except for a few eccentric outliers). There's also the hidden interaction with the hurricane item, allowing them to lifesteal three times greater. Guess what's commonplace in marksmen builds?

"Both Classes have flaws but let's not forget the juggernaut update and the meta that followed." Which was and still is prevalent though? Marksmen still were played during the brief reign of bruisers, but in this marksmen meta, where's the bruisers?

And for your last point, more trying to get it through riot's thick skulls that so much snowballing is just dull and frustrating.

chipndip1Sep 11, 20171 votes

at 35 to 40 minutes, yes, but that's SUPPOSED to happen. Jugs aren't amazing late game carries.

Nea104Sep 10, 20171 votes

Problem is they overplay pure tanks, having equal tankiness and far more damage. Maybe they don't have many ccs, but in low elos that doesn't matter so much.

RainfallSep 10, 20171 votes

darius is a champion that cannot be buffed specificaly for botlane,players already ban him quite frequently. even if riot made a post about juggernauts in the botlane i dont think they can make any changes to help them.

ÐelofashtSep 11, 20171 votes

Juggernauts make for a more fair carry because they can be kited by ranged, the problem right now is ranged do not to actually kite at all, come mid game they can just stand there and shoot and kill the Juggernaut before it can close the gap by walking due to any slows or hard CC applied to them on the way in. Currently, the game is very hostile towards melee in general, and it is made unbearably so by playing an immobile melee.

When a juggernaut is carrying it is because the enemy are playing into their strengths and not utilizing their weaknesses.

DragonSheaSep 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts make for a more fair carry because they can be kited by ranged, the problem right now is ranged do not to actually kite at all, come mid game they can just stand there and shoot and kill the Juggernaut before it can close the gap by walking due to any slows or hard CC applied to them on the way in. Currently, the game is very hostile towards melee in general, and it is made unbearably so by playing an immobile melee.

When a juggernaut is carrying it is because the enemy are playing into their strengths and not utilizing their weaknesses.

Any carry can be a fair one if the balancing is done right. The only reason why assassin are sucking right now is because ADC mains are bitches that need as much help and buffs as they can get to be safe. As a carry, you get X weakness that is gonna screw you over if you are don't play your cards right.

ADC's: Damage and range, but frail as fuck, their safety net is range with some mobility or CC.
Skirmisher: Insane sustained damage, but are melee and slightly tougher than ADC's Safety net is they one-shot Defensive CD and Mobility.
Divers: Jack-of-all-trades: Good damage and durability but once they are in, they win or lose as they lack disengage tools. Safety net is their shields and sustain.
Juggernauts: High damage and durability and slow as fuck which makes them kiteable. Safety net is their sustain and durability.
Mages: Murderous burst and damage but weaknesses vary based of sub-class, ranging from frailty to short range. Safety net is their CC and other terrain(burst) disengage and CC (artillery) and CC and shields (Battle) although it's a mix bag in general.

As you can see, all damage dealers have something to fall back on and it's up to each team to make the best use of their safety net if they are gonna win a match.

Somebody Love MeSep 11, 20171 votes

I'd rather not have juggernauts as the main carry tbh. At least with ADCs, if you kill them, somehow, you win the fight.

A bad ADC or APC can be punished for poor positioning by getting popped by the enemy team.

Juggernauts are rather tanky, and them being the central carry means you gotta kill them to win the fight, which would be super hard, considering his team would be a problem. He'd be harder to kill with heals, shields, and speed-ups.

A majority of juggernauts also don't really have noticeable skill curves (though you can argue this point).

They can't get as handily punished for positioning poorly, being tanky and all.